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Yeah, the whole "but they don't even have shootas to replace!" doesn't work because it says "replace their ranged weapons with one of the following:"

I'm going to let Toniork fight for me. He's much more eloquent.

No order of uprgrading is specified by the rules. Saying it is supposed to be done in X order is arguing RAI not RAW. If you want to start that, then most seem to agree RAI is you don't pay for upgrades you don't have like a shoota that is immediately replaced by a rokkit.

So buy your rokkits, big shootas and nob shoota first. Now you don't have sluggas for those guys. Buy shootas for the rest paying for each slugga turned in this way.
If at this step every ork in the mob with a slugga trades it in for a shoota, the rule is satisfied.

Every model with a slugga is required to trade in their sluggas but not required to have a slugga. If you don't have a slugga to turn in, you haven't failed to turn in your slugga. All that is required is to turn in their slugga, not a slugga. The rule means nothing to those without a slugga.

If I tell a group of students "the class can go to recess after everyone gives me a piece of trash", each student must give me a piece of trash before the class can go to recess. If I tell them "the class can go to recess after everyone gives me their trash", they could go to recess without each student giving me a piece of trash assuming at least one student doesn't have a piece of trash to give me.

Don't pay the 2 extra points. Just inform your opponent that you've done what you did with that unit. If he starts whining about it, don't play him because all he'll do the entire game is whining about rules and ruining your afternoon/ evening with his bitching

Curiosity:
Willing to accept a small point upgrade on your opponent's Unit as compensation?

Characters can take a shoota for free on the wargear list.

Save a point right there!

That will break a lot of codices far worse than saving a point or for. It also causes end results for those that feel an order isn't necessary but that an end result is what matters, but yall do what you want. If the TO allows it, I'm cool. If it's friendly, I'll roll my eyes and play on. It doesn't mean I'd do it or that of I were a TO I'd allow it, or that I think it's RAW.

Well if the nob already replaced his slugga for a shoota for free he cant replace that shoota for a shoota for a point. And unless the big shoota or rocket guy kept their sluggas they wont habe to replace their sluggas again for the shoota

There are 2 ways to look at it:
1) replaces slugga: if you upgrade the slugga to another weapon first you have no slugga to upgrade to the shoota; thus saving you the point.
2) entire mob: you have to upgrade to shootas before upgrading anything else.

Technically the second is correct with rigorous RAW; the nob guns ans special guns just say ranged weapon so the order could still work with mob then individuals.

The First is the old way.

Many start asking "what doe 2-3 points matter?" With orks 6 points is a boy; 2 squads with 2 special guns ans a nob with a ranged weapon is another slugga boy; 2 shoota boyz and at least 1 slugga mob(more the better) is very common.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There are 2 ways to look at it:
1) replaces slugga: if you upgrade the slugga to another weapon first you have no slugga to upgrade to the shoota; thus saving you the point.
2) entire mob: you have to upgrade to shootas before upgrading anything else.

Technically the second is correct with rigorous RAW; the nob guns ans special guns just say ranged weapon so the order could still work with mob then individuals.

The First is the old way.

Many start asking "what doe 2-3 points matter?" With orks 6 points is a boy; 2 squads with 2 special guns ans a nob with a ranged weapon is another slugga boy; 2 shoota boyz and at least 1 slugga mob(more the better) is very common.

Agreed 100%. I don't like it, but that is RAW in the 7th ed codex. The wording says 'entire mob', that means every Boy. If you then upgrade a Boy to a Nob, good for you, but you have already paid a point for that Shoota. If you never upgraded to Shootas, the Nob has the ability to take a Shoota for free. Yes it's poorly worded, and doesn't align with what the wording was in previous codex, but that's RAW in the 7th ed Ork codex. Sorry. Of course, all of this is irrelevant if you stopped taking Shootas in 7th because of the increased cost.

Here's another fun one: the 7th ed codex does not say that Boyz replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas -- just replace their sluggas. Same for the option for a Boy to replace his ranged weapon for a big shoota or rokkit launcha. Does that mean they keep their choppas, and therefore have two weapons, and therefore get an extra attack in CC? That's not how it worked in 6th, but that's how it's worded in 7th. There are quite a few issues with the 7th ed Ork codex, it's just comical. Don't even get me started on the two instances of the Warlord Trait table, each with slightly different wording. Whoever wrote it must have been an Ork ("Dat's gud enuf, shud bring in sum teef, ship da t'ing!"). If you don't like it, complain to GW. Make them release a FAQ. Good luck.

 Cleatus wrote:
Here's another fun one: the 7th ed codex does not say that Boyz replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas -- just replace their sluggas. Same for the option for a Boy to replace his ranged weapon for a big shoota or rokkit launcha. Does that mean they keep their choppas, and therefore have two weapons, and therefore get an extra attack in CC? That's not how it worked in 6th, but that's how it's worded in 7th.

From 'More Than One Weapon' in the main rulebook:

However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

A shoota isn't a Melee weapon and therefore won't give you an extra attack in close combat. As far back as 3rd edition, the only type of ranged weapon (barring specific exceptions) that granted an extra attack when used with a close combat/Melee weapon were Pistols.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Cleatus wrote:
Here's another fun one: the 7th ed codex does not say that Boyz replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas -- just replace their sluggas. Same for the option for a Boy to replace his ranged weapon for a big shoota or rokkit launcha. Does that mean they keep their choppas, and therefore have two weapons, and therefore get an extra attack in CC? That's not how it worked in 6th, but that's how it's worded in 7th.

From 'More Than One Weapon' in the main rulebook:

However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

A shoota isn't a Melee weapon and therefore won't give you an extra attack in close combat. As far back as 3rd edition, the only type of ranged weapon (barring specific exceptions) that granted an extra attack when used with a close combat/Melee weapon were Pistols.

You're absolutely right. I was just pointing out the strange word choice.

If you'll excuse a slight drift off topic, with regards to order of upgrading what do you guys make of the following from the Dark Reaper entry in the Eldar codex?

- All Dark Reapers in the unit may take starshot missiles...Xpts/model
- May upgrade one Dark Reaper to a Dark Reaper exarch...Ypts
....
- If the Dark Reaper exarch has a reaper launcher he may take starshot missiles...Xpts

So how much would you be paying for a 3 man unit, including an exarch, to have starshot missiles? 3X or 4X?

Are you saying it's 3 and an exarch or 3 to include him?
It seems simple to me and is not worded poorly unlike Orcs... But...
If I buy 3 DRs then upgrade them to have starshot missiles, then upgrade one to be an exarch, he has starshot missiles and therefore doesn't need to buy them.
If I buy 3DRs then upgrade one, he doesn't have them, then I can upgrade him alone to have starshot missiles.

The problem is, the ork codex is not worded anything like the simple and obviously well written wording of your codex.

Notice that the option posted by Callarthis states 'all Dark Reapers in the unit....'

I don't see your point.

JinxDragon wrote:
Curiosity:
Willing to accept a small point upgrade on your opponent's Unit as compensation?

Sure, why not? Admittedly, I'm not bang into super-competitiveness, so ymmv.

FratHammer wrote:
Are you saying it's 3 and an exarch or 3 to include him?
If I buy 3DRs then upgrade one, he doesn't have them, then I can upgrade him alone to have starshot missiles.

The quoted option stated all Dark Reapers, if you upgrade just one have you upgraded all?

You have to give me a point by point here. Your point isn't coming across. You can't possibly think one and all are the same thing, so I'm very confused at what you're implying.

I was reading the sentence with the subject matter still being 'starshot missile,' so 'upgrade one' came across as 'upgrade one Dark Reaper to have a starshot missile.'
Rereading it with a different subject matter, 'upgrade one to an exarch,' would change the meaning of your sentence entirely.

Or play a Deff Dread Mob and get the shootas for free still

This exact same question and arguments were made during our last codex (which was technically a 4th edition one). GW eventually put out a clear FAQ stating only the models which actually replaced X, had to pay for the upgrade. It was in reference to Nobs and PainBoys, PainBoys no longer had X so didn't have to pay for the same upgrade. Might have been Flash Gitz actually. Yeah, PainBoyz didn't have to pay for the SnazzGunz upgrade since they had no SnazzGun.

TLR GW eventually ruled you only have to pay on the models getting the upgrade. Last Edition.

 PipeAlley wrote:
This exact same question and arguments were made during our last codex (which was technically a 4th edition one). GW eventually put out a clear FAQ stating only the models which actually replaced X, had to pay for the upgrade. It was in reference to Nobs and PainBoys, PainBoys no longer had X so didn't have to pay for the same upgrade. Might have been Flash Gitz actually. Yeah, PainBoyz didn't have to pay for the SnazzGunz upgrade since they had no SnazzGun.

TLR GW eventually ruled you only have to pay on the models getting the upgrade. Last Edition.

Makes sense, and I'd certainly play it that way. But barring a FAQ entry for this edition, it's not RAW, but RAI.

(Granted, if the FAQ was about Nobz and Pain Boyz, or Flash Gitz and Pain Boyz, it would no longer apply, since they're not bought together in the current edition.)

Yeah, I'd tend to agree that you're stuck paying those points for the guys with Rokkits and Big Shootas. Logic being, "they replace their ranged weapon with one of the following" means that they go from replacing their slugga with one of those for 5 pts, to replacing their shoota with one of those for 5 pts.

Interesting thought experiment/side note:

Is it possible to equip a Nob with a Slugga if he's in a squad of Shoota Boyz?

My feeling is no.

Hunam0001 wrote:
Yeah, I'd tend to agree that you're stuck paying those points for the guys with Rokkits and Big Shootas. Logic being, "they replace their ranged weapon with one of the following" means that they go from replacing their slugga with one of those for 5 pts, to replacing their shoota with one of those for 5 pts.

Interesting thought experiment/side note:

Is it possible to equip a Nob with a Slugga if he's in a squad of Shoota Boyz?

My feeling is no.

Can't see how, since Nobz either have what the mob has, or any upgrade they choose to take from the ranged weapons list, which does not include sluggas.

The closest we can get with the dark reapers is to not buy the starshots until after upgrading to exarch.

The options list is more like a menu; it is not a set order of operations.

The starshot option states all dark Reapers; while the unit name is shared with the model name it is fairly clear that the upgrade is referring to the model name.

The exarch will never have to pay twice. If you take the unit upgrade first, the exarch already has the starshot missiles when upgraded(he does not have a separate wargear line), so he does not need to buy them again. If you take the exarch upgrade first then he is no longer a "dark reaper" and may or may not take the missiles as he so chooses while the rest of the unit(all the dark reapers) either all take them or all do not. If you plan to change the exarchs gun I suggest you upgrade him before the missiles.

As far as the precedent from the old FAQ goes(back to the boyz mob): that depeds on which bit in the upgrade you are focusing on. As you can take options in any order you choose, and the old FAQ says if you don't have the gun to upgrade you do not have to pay for it; I, personally, would not mind playing against someone who upgrade to the specials or bought the nob and his gear first(note you can never in this case have a slugga/choppa nob in a shoota boyz unit due to the "entire mob" bit; but a kombi or any other gun would not require the extra point), even though 2 units with specials and nob can net an extra boy in a unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The options list is more like a menu; it is not a set order of operations.

Well, it does read like a set order of operations, at least the Boyz one. Taken as separate items in a menu, at least one of them makes no sense ("one other model may be upraded to a boss nob"), it only makes sense when considered right after the previous rule ("for every 10 models, one boy may replace..."), making it clear that the model you upgrade to a nob must not be one of the ones that replaced their weapons with rokkits/big shootas.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As you can take options in any order you choose, and the old FAQ says if you don't have the gun to upgrade you do not have to pay for it; I, personally, would not mind playing against someone who upgrade to the specials or bought the nob and his gear first(note you can never in this case have a slugga/choppa nob in a shoota boyz unit due to the "entire mob" bit; but a kombi or any other gun would not require the extra point), even though 2 units with specials and nob can net an extra boy in a unit.

I think we all agree on that, tho. I don't think anybody's arguing that it's a good idea to pay 1 pt per model, regardless of whether all models are "boyz with sluggas", or some are nobz or boyz with big shootas/rokkits. The argument is whether that's RAW or not. I'm now pretty convinced RAW is paying 1 pt for every model in the mob, including Nob and Big Shoota / Rokkit Boyz, mostly because the wording of the rules implies they should be considered in order. When read in order, it's all clear and requires no backtracking or recalculating:

1. buy extra boyz at 6pt each

2. replace all sluggas with shootas for 1pt / model [how many models? it's clear, at this point, since it has to be all, and every model right now has a slugga]

3. get 'eavy armor for 4pt / model [again, entire mob]

4. for every 10 models, you may replace the ranged weapon of one to big shoota / rokkit [note how it now says "ranged weapon", since at this point, you may have upgraded to shootas", also note how the amount of models is set, at this point, since buying more happened at the first step]

5. one other model can be upgraded to boss nob for 10 pts [one "other" model, not one of the ones you upgraded to big shootas or rokkits]

6. the boss nob can take items from the lists [now that we have a boss nob, which we picked at the previous step]

7. boss nob can take bosspole [ditto]

8. get a trukk

Now, I'm not saying it should've been written like that. I'm saying that since it was written like that, they meant for us to apply the rules in order, which means (however much we may disagree with the appropriateness of it) paying for upgrades we won't use/have.

Pretty sure I won't play it RAW with friends, tho.

There is the "one other model(or x, where x is a specific model name)" verbiage in many codices; it is simply wording to make it clear that a model cannot have both a special weapon and another piece of special wargear. Guard does it with both medi-kits and vox casters meaning you cannot have that item and a special weapon/be part of a heavy weapons team.

The precedent set in the old Ork FAQ was that all options are non-linear; meaning you can take them in any order you please. Indeed some unit entries still make certain options impossible/make little sense when taken in a linearly(case in point a dark reaper unit where you upgrafe all the reaper launchers with starshots then get an exarch and swap out his gun).

The nature of a points-based game means that you may well have to go back and revisit options in units you have already decided you want to take to either add or subtract options to meet the agreed upon points.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There is the "one other model(or x, where x is a specific model name)" verbiage in many codices; it is simply wording to make it clear that a model cannot have both a special weapon and another piece of special wargear. Guard does it with both medi-kits and vox casters meaning you cannot have that item and a special weapon/be part of a heavy weapons team.

The precedent set in the old Ork FAQ was that all options are non-linear; meaning you can take them in any order you please. Indeed some unit entries still make certain options impossible/make little sense when taken in a linearly(case in point a dark reaper unit where you upgrafe all the reaper launchers with starshots then get an exarch and swap out his gun).

The nature of a points-based game means that you may well have to go back and revisit options in units you have already decided you want to take to either add or subtract options to meet the agreed upon points.

I'd love to see that Ork FAQ, if only out of curiosity. (I'm not implying you're making it up, or misinterpreting it!)

I dunno, I get the feeling the rules were written how they were in an attempt to simplify the process for us (I think that's where the "follow these in order and you don't need to backtrack" comes from). I don't think the attempt was successful, especially if it doesn't work that way for other units.

I really don't have much more to say about this... I'll just leave it at: I believe a strict reading of the rules for Ork Boyz means you pay 1pt for every model, including Boss Nob and Big Shootas and Rokkits, to upgrade Sluggas to Shootas. I also believe that's not appropriate, and will never ask anybody to do it that way. I won't do it that way unless asked to, in which case I won't complain. I don't think anybody will ask me to, though. I'm unsure as to what the original intent was, since not only does what I believe to be a strict interpretation make much sense, but also there's an old FAQ that contradicts that interpretation, while said strict interpretation is pretty clear and straightforward.

Boom! How do you like me now? Check out the first and last paragraphs. Toniork, you officially owe me. I'll be in PR in mid October to collect.