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The book reads "The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas...1 pt/model".

How does that interact with the Boss Nob and special weapon (Rokkit and Big Shoota) upgrades?

For example, say I have a 10 man Boyz squad, costing 60 pts.
If I upgrade one to a Nob, that's 70 pts.
I can upgrade that Nob's ranged weapon (normally a Slugga) to a Shoota for free, as per the Ranged Weapons List.
If I take a Big Shoota, that's 75 pts.
Now, if I wanna upgrade the rest of the Boyz to Shootas... is that "1pt x 10 models", or "1pt x 8 models"? That is, do I only count the models that will be upgrading, or is a more strict interpretation ("the entire mob", hence count every single model) correct?
In other words, does a Boyz squad consisting of a Boss Nob with Shoota, 8 Shoota Boyz, and 1 Big Shoota Boy cost 85 or 83 pts? Or 84 pts, counting either the Nob or the Big Shoota Boy?

In my opinion, you only have to pay the 1pt for the models who are getting a Shoota, aka not for the Nob or guys with BS/RL

I could be wrong here, but that is the most logical way I believe.

The entire mob has to do it so the entire mob does it. There is no exception given to the Nob

 CrownAxe wrote:
The entire mob has to do it so the entire mob does it. There is no exception given to the Nob

that is the RAW, however if you feel like using a bit of common sense, only charge yourself the 1pt for the 8 models you upgraded.

Do the Nob and the BS boy have sluggaz to replace with shootaz? Then why would you pay the points for the upgrade?

At the end of the day it's 2 points, are you really going to care that much about 2 points for shootas?

maceria wrote:
Do the Nob and the BS boy have sluggaz to replace with shootaz? Then why would you pay the points for the upgrade?

Because the unit pays 1 pt per model, not 1 pt per model upgraded.

maceria wrote:
Do the Nob and the BS boy have sluggaz to replace with shootaz? Then why would you pay the points for the upgrade?

Well the entire mob has to switch sluggas for shootas. So if not everyone in the mob has a slugga (such as the nob) then you aren't allowed to switch sluggas for shootas as you can't properly make everyone in the mob do it.

So you'd have to replace sluggas with shooters first and then upgrade to a nob. so you'd still have to pay the extra point

 CrownAxe wrote:

maceria wrote:
Do the Nob and the BS boy have sluggaz to replace with shootaz? Then why would you pay the points for the upgrade?

Well the entire mob has to switch sluggas for shootas. So if not everyone in the mob has a slugga (such as the nob) then you aren't allowed to switch sluggas for shootas as you can't properly make everyone in the mob do it.

So you'd have to replace sluggas with shooters first and then upgrade to a nob. so you'd still have to pay the extra point

I hate this sort of logic. I'm not disagreeing with you, but HIWPI, and do, is pay for the guys who use the upgrade, and not for the guys who can't. I strongly believe that is RAI, even if not exactly RAW.

If you start taking points off for things in a strict order or picking and choosing what happens when you lead to people, like a now unwatchable youtuber, who think you can have a terminator captain with a storm shield and rune blade. "because I can buy the storm shield when he was a captain before he became a terminator captain, so I can have both."

Unwatchable. Point is, we pay for everyone. It sucks, but it's how it is. It's only 1-4 points depending on special weapons and nobs. I know Orcs need every point we can get, but if we allowed this stuff other codices benefit far more from this cheese. So lets all agree to not try to squeeze a couple points to then cause our lives to be much harder.

There is no order in choosing options. The end result is what must be legal.

If you handed a printed copy of your list as it appears in game to someone, that's the list that must be legal.

Trust me, I agree.

Which means we pay 1pt each.

Another way to look at this is, if you could choose to buy it after people switched weapons and so didn't pay for them, you could (obviously incorrectly) say that you buy 10boys, upgrade to Shootas, then buy 20more boys...see how that doesn't work? You have to buy one for the nob and for the bs/rokkits

FratHammer wrote:
Trust me, I agree.

Which means we pay 1pt each.

Another way to look at this is, if you could choose to buy it after people switched weapons and so didn't pay for them, you could (obviously incorrectly) say that you buy 10boys, upgrade to Shootas, then buy 20more boys...see how that doesn't work? You have to buy one for the nob and for the bs/rokkits

nope, and if I played against anyone who said I had to pay for an upgrade that my unit didnt have I would politely tell them to go feth themselves.

There is no official order of operation in this. And furthermore your example of the terminator guy is fine except that it specifically says if a terminator can take the bloody thing. Thats the same as me saying my MA Big Mek can take a SAG because he could before he purchased the MA, two completely different circumstances.

But that is what taking things out of order does. It's what a moron on YouTube claims is legal. That's where that example is coming from.

But, read our entry. It says nothing about it being 1pp boy, or 1pp upgrade. And again the argument is over a point. I'd let you do it because I'm nice, but is it right? Would I ever do it? No.

FratHammer wrote:
But that is what taking things out of order does. It's what a moron on YouTube claims is legal. That's where that example is coming from.

But, read our entry. It says nothing about it being 1pp boy, or 1pp upgrade. And again the argument is over a point. I'd let you do it because I'm nice, but is it right? Would I ever do it? No.

he is not trying to remove points from his totals, what he is trying to do is add equipment that he shouldn't be able to use in terminator armor. What Im trying to say is that Ork boyz dont have to pay 1pt each for upgrades that they don't get. 10 boyz, I upgrade 1 to a nob and give him a PK, I thin upgrade 1 to be a Rokkit. I then pay 8 points to upgrade the non specialists to be shoota boyz. Common fething sense. Paying 1 point for a nob and a Rokkit boy to "have" a shoota that they aren't allowed to use is both stupid and not RAI nor RAW. Show me where in the codex it says i have to pay for equipment im not using.

"The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas...1 pt/model".

RAW your way isn't Legal. I get it, I want my 1 point too buddy, but don't kid yourself that it's not RAW. And honestly we have no clue what GW wants or means and you're kidding yourself if you think you alone understand their intent G.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'm using that reference because he's trying to purchase something he cannot purchase out of order. We are discussing purchasing things out of order to be exempt from a rule. See the correlation? If we buy things in an incorrect order we invalidate our list. Other guy is claiming he can buy things out of order, which also gives him an invalid list. His is advantageous for gear, yours for points. End result is the same.

and yet THERE IS NO ORDER, you haven't proven any order, all you have pointed out was a poorly worded rule.

If I purchase my Big shoota and nob first, they no longer have Sluggas so they can't legally purchase shootas. Unless your suggesting that Shoota mobz can't take big shootaz or Nobz with PKs.

In this circumstance, it does NOT matter the order you go on. For instance I want my unit of 11 boys to have sluggas. I then pay for the nob and I want him to have a shoota, a 0 point upgrade. Then you decided you wanted them to be shoota boys. I pay the 10 points because I'm paying for those who still have to upgrade. No Where in the rulebook or any codices Does it say that you have to purchase upgrades in de
scending order. RAW or unwritten if you prefer since you do not have to go in order then you only pay for the boys being upgraded.

Another way to think about it is that the character models specifically choose their war gear from the armory section therefore the upgrade per model only affects the boys.

You pay 1 point per model in the squad. It says the squad may take the upgrade, and you pay for the size of the squad. Don't think of it as paying for the shootas themselves, you are paying to have the unit itself be upgraded to a shoota unit and are paying based on the size of the squad.

So even if its a 20-boy squad with a nob, pk and 2 BS in it, you are still going to pay an extra 20 points.

"1 point per model"
not
"1 point per shoota"

It's only 1 point per model per slugga replaced.

How are you coming to any other conclusion. This is not an order based problem.

The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas...1 pt/model". It does not say "The entire mob may take shootas...1 pt/model". Replacing the slugga is part of that option.

While I agree that only models actually upgrading should pay, a literal, strict reading of the RAW does, in fact, say "the entire mob [which would include any special weapons and the Boss Nob] may replace their sluggas with shootas" for "1pt/model". So it would, in fact, be 10 pts to upgrade "8 slugga boyz, 1 big shoota / rokkit boy, 1 boss nob" to shootas.

On the other hand, that would also be impossible, since "the entire mob" does not have sluggas to replace with shootas. The Boss Nob may have one (which means the free upgrade to shoota from the ranged weapons list is rendered useless), but the big shoota / rokkit boy does not have a slugga. So strictly RAW, only mobs without special weapons can upgrade to shootas (any mob including special weapons must be a slugga boyz mob). The Boss Nob may still take any upgrade from the ranged weapons list, since that specified that a model may replace its "ranged weapon", so the Boss Nob, having upgraded from Slugga to Shoota, may now replace said Shoota with anything from that list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It's only 1 point per model per slugga replaced.

How are you coming to any other conclusion. This is not an order based problem.

The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas...1 pt/model". It does not say "The entire mob may take shootas...1 pt/model". Replacing the slugga is part of that option.

Right, which is why if the entire mob cannot replace their sluggas (e.g. one of them has no slugga to replace), then the mob does not have that option. Also, "1 pt/model", when referring to the mob, does not exclude any models which were not upgraded (which, given the interpretation in the previous sentence, would be zero in any case).

I don't think that's the intent, and I don't think that's how it should be played, but I do believe that's the literal interpretation of the rule.

Why not upgrade the shootas first, then Nob then the big shootas? If you guys really want to be difficult ...... Problem solved! Next!

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Why not upgrade the shootas first, then Nob then the big shootas? If you guys really want to be difficult ...... Problem solved! Next!

Because then people get in to the "proper order of upgrades" argument.

Also with no real order to upgrades, it says a boy may replace his slugga with a rokkit launcha. Then it says one boy may be upgraded to a nob. So you can upgrade your boy with a rokkit launcha to a nob, thus giving the nob a rokkit launcha. Although i'm not sure why you would want to do that.

but in the end, poorly worded rules are poorly worded rules.

DarknessEternal,
Without the word 'Replace' every Model would have ended up with both Sluggas and shootas.

General,
Wanted to post something on how poorly written the Option Rule actually is, it really needs instructions on how to calculate the cost instead of just informing us what the aberrations mean, but I couldn't find the right words to make a mountain out of this molehill. Just keep in mind the Rule informs us that we are adding the option to the Unit, and at no time does it mention anything about individual Models. We have implied that Options have something to do with individual Models because there exists quite a number of Options that do single out a individual Model within the Unit, or a piece of Wargear found on an individual Model.

Nothing in the Written Rules allows us to actually do so though, because nothing informs us how to properly calculate these things at all....

 Icculus wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Why not upgrade the shootas first, then Nob then the big shootas? If you guys really want to be difficult ...... Problem solved! Next!

Because then people get in to the "proper order of upgrades" argument.

Also with no real order to upgrades, it says a boy may replace his slugga with a rokkit launcha. Then it says one boy may be upgraded to a nob. So you can upgrade your boy with a rokkit launcha to a nob, thus giving the nob a rokkit launcha. Although i'm not sure why you would want to do that.

but in the end, poorly worded rules are poorly worded rules.

Actually, there might be something to that argument... the rule for the Nob says "One other model may be upgraded to a Boss Nob" (emphasis mine), and it comes right after the special weapons rule. This makes it clearer (if not completely clear) that a Boy upgraded to Rokkit/Big Shoota can't be upgraded to a Boss Nob. It also implies that there is, in fact, an order to the upgrades, for the phrase "one other model" to have a defitive meaning.

Given that, the cost would in fact be +1 per model (85 pts in my original post), regardless of whether there are any Boss Nobz or special weapons (since at that point, there are no boss nobz or special weapons, only slugga boyz). That also means there's no need to make a distinction (as in "1 pt per model upgraded", or "all Boyz with sluggas can have them replaced with shootas").

I don't like it (makes no sense to pay for an upgrade I'm not using), but it seems clear.

I quite agree that it's a) unclear and b) daft to have to pay for an upgrade you don't take. Based strictly on the wording though, I'd be inclined to say you have to pay the +1 point for every model, even those with additional upgrades.

Personally, I wouldn't do it in my lists, purely cos I think it's kinda daft, but if I were playing someone who was adamant it wasn't fine, and the odd few points mattered that much to them, then I'd just take a couple of Grots or a Slugga Boy out of my list.

That said, my approach to points values has been pretty strongly influenced by old WD battle reports; i.e. that the odd point here or there is no biggie. But super-serious tournament types might take a different view (as evinced by the sort of arguments that seem to crop up on here pretty regularly).

Thank you Toniork.

Yeah as I said, it is an order problem Toniork just pointed out out better. The problem is you're not paying 1ppm which your reasoning is, "but he didn't trade one out" but if he has no Slugga to trade, how can he satisfy the condition of "entire unit may swap" so you're purchasing things then going back and purchasing something, claiming you don't have to pay the cost of satisfy the restrictions, and claiming everything is cool.

That's exactly what others try but for gear they can't take. You're trying to do it to save 1 point...

Key words: Entire Mob, 1 point per model

Well, to be fair, it can add up to quite a bit more than 1 point, in, say, a Green Tide army (up to 20 pts, for a minimal Green Tide, although wouldn't you want Sluggas for a Green Tide?).

"If the entire mob has sluggas, the mob may replace sluggas with shootas for one point per model" is the way the rule should be written if replacing sluggas was required in order to take a shoota. It is not written that way. People are essentially adding those words. The way it is written requires every model with a slugga to replace it with a shoota. It is silent about what is done with models that don't have sluggas. Since it is silent they are unaffected. No order of upgrading models is specified.

The way I see it you hand out upgrades and pay for the upgrades you hand out. If you don't hand out a shoota, you don't pay for it.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
"If the entire mob has sluggas, the mob may replace sluggas with shootas for one point per model" is the way the rule should be written if replacing sluggas was required in order to take a shoota. It is not written that way. People are essentially adding those words. The way it is written requires every model with a slugga to replace it with a shoota. It is silent about what is done with models that don't have sluggas. Since it is silent they are unaffected. No order of upgrading models is specified.

The way I see it you hand out upgrades and pay for the upgrades you hand out. If you don't hand out a shoota, you don't pay for it.

I'm pretty sure the "the entire mob" part requires that it apply to the entire mob, not some models. I'm sure we all agree that you can't pick and choose, so that part's out... but by the same language that prevents you from picking and choosing also prevents you from upgrading models without sluggas. In order for "the entire mob" to "replace sluggas with shootas", "the entire mob" must have "sluggas", with the result being "the entire mob" now has "shootas". If some models in the mob do not have "sluggas", then "the entire mob" cannot replace "sluggas with shootas", since those models that don't have "sluggas" can't replace them.

Additionally, the "order of upgrades" argument, for this case, at least, given how the rules are worded, seems strong. The "upgrade to Nob" rule comes after the "upgrade to big shoota/rokkit", and specifically says "one other model", not "one model", and it's pretty clear it means "one model, other than the one(s) you optionally upgraded to big shoota/rokkit". Given that, I have to assume that rule must be applied or considered after the big shoota/rokkit one. And given that, I think it's reasonable to assume the entire option list must be applied/considered in order (at the very least, to resolve any ambiguities). Another supporting fact towards that interpretation is the fact that the slugga->shoota rule is perfectly clear and unambiguous if taken in order (at the point in the options list, you have 10 to 30 Boyz with sluggas, nothing else, so saying "the entire mob may replace sluggas with shootas, at 1pt per model" can only mean "each one of your X Boyz now has a shoota, and it costs you X pts", where X is the number of Boyz you have, as determined by the previous rule). If not taken in order, then the rule is not perfectly clear and unambiguous. For example (ok, granted, a ridiculous example, but still...), if I decide to apply the upgrade rule first, then it will cost 10pts, since I still haven't bought more Boyz. I could, then, apply the "include more Boyz at 6pts per model", and either get "free" Shootas, or get mixed Shootas/Sluggas, depending on interpretation (again, not unambiguous). That's silly, of course... and I don't think anybody would argue it should be interpreted that way... but it's sorta the same situation. "I'll upgrade to Nob, buy a rokkit, and THEN I'll upgrade the rest of the mob to Shootas, saving two points." is sorta the same as "I'll upgrade to shootas, and THEN I'll get 10 extra boys, saving 10 points."

And just to be clear... I do believe you should only be charged for models that actually upgraded, but I don't believe that's what the rules say.