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I think D weapons should go back to how they originally were, with one minor tweak.

Against a Vehicle: A StrD hit causes an automatic penetrating hit with +2 on the damage chart. No cover saves can be taken against a StrD hit.

Against a model with Toughness: A StrD hit causes an automatic wound with no cover saves allowed. An unsaved wound from StrD causes Instant Death regardless of Toughness and is multiplied into D3 wounds.

And obviously make Eldar D-weapons not StrD anymore.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
That's the thing, the voidshields aren't ork exclusive.

You could do the same thing with chaos cultists, blob guard, tyranid hordes, and even necron warriors. The voidshields generator is good for any army with a need to get giant piles of foot slogging units to the enemy in one piece.

What other army can give this save to 301+ models at the exact same time spread out throughout the entire board? I'll wait..

Two tyranid endless tide formations with the voidshields set up at the deployment zone edge with max models per unit would give you 14 units and 378 models with these formations and wouldn't have to multi assault in order to get work done. Now the kicker is if they kill any of the units besides the warriors they return to the game on a 4+. The void shield gives its benefit to EVERY unit within 12", not just one.

Hope you weren't waiting long.

Took you a day do I was. Glad I didn't hold my breath. Still have disproved anything I previously stated. You're wasting your time and mine. Good day

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
That's the thing, the voidshields aren't ork exclusive.

You could do the same thing with chaos cultists, blob guard, tyranid hordes, and even necron warriors. The voidshields generator is good for any army with a need to get giant piles of foot slogging units to the enemy in one piece.

What other army can give this save to 301+ models at the exact same time spread out throughout the entire board? I'll wait..

so because orks have one of the stupidest formations ever created (Green tide) which is incredibly boring to play against when its only 101 models you think its OP? Heres the easy counter to that in any game/tournament. Take your time on your turn, don't allow him to combine run with movement phase and make him move every model and force him to consolidate every model. The game turns into a 2 turn game where you can easily win by taking a obj or 2 . green tide is boring plain and simple

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
That's the thing, the voidshields aren't ork exclusive.

You could do the same thing with chaos cultists, blob guard, tyranid hordes, and even necron warriors. The voidshields generator is good for any army with a need to get giant piles of foot slogging units to the enemy in one piece.

What other army can give this save to 301+ models at the exact same time spread out throughout the entire board? I'll wait..

so because orks have one of the stupidest formations ever created (Green tide) which is incredibly boring to play against when its only 101 models you think its OP? Heres the easy counter to that in any game/tournament. Take your time on your turn, don't allow him to combine run with movement phase and make him move every model and force him to consolidate every model. The game turns into a 2 turn game where you can easily win by taking a obj or 2 . green tide is boring plain and simple

So you're suggestion to win is to be an ahole? I'm good. The formation is legit. The fact you say it's terrible and boring shows you're lack of experience as a competetive player in a competetive format.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Took you a day do I was. Glad I didn't hold my breath. Still have disproved anything I previously stated. You're wasting your time and mine. Good day

I'm sorry, how is directly disproving your idea that no other army could put that many bodies on the table and benefit from that particular fortification not actually disproving anything? You were proven wrong, undeniably, and without actually trying hard to do so. Any swarm army can make use of the voidshields generator because the benefit of protection it provides is to every single unit within 12". Not "a" unit, ALL OF THEM! Also, there are cheaper bodies in the game than ork boys. So the green tide can even be out swarmed.

In regards to playing against them being boring, it is a distinct failing of the green tide that they have difficulty addressing a msu style army due to restrictions on targeting multiple units. This is not hard to exploit, they also require a character added into the unit to make them immune to fear. My harlequins would have a field day with a green tide, they would be lucky to not be crushed by the end of turn 3.

And now back to our actual discussion, which was changes to strength D. My case is made on page one, thank you for your time

You originally said the armies I posted were not OP and had no factor in an actual OP army. You have yet to disprove that these are OP. Please do so or don't reply to my comments. You trying to be petty by shoving off our conversation shows your lack of knowledge on the subject


Edit: also it wasn't easy. I'm sure you honestly spent the entire day looking for it. How sad...

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
You originally said the armies I posted were not OP and had no factor in an actual OP army. You have yet to disprove that these are OP. Please do so or don't reply to my comments. You trying to be petty by shoving off our conversation shows your lack of knowledge on the subject


Edit: also it wasn't easy. I'm sure you honestly spent the entire day looking for it. How sad...

Except the armys you posted are certainly not over powered. I also said tyranid armies could do it when we started this discussion yesterday, you wanted an example list after I went to bed, not my fault I didn't check the page soon enough for you. I stated before how little my (pure) harlequins would care about a green tide list, I've defeated the new double formation ultramarines with 240 points of free vehicles why would I have any issue with a single giant blob of orks?

The bike list is cute, but space marines/ dark angels do it better, as do eldar. Neither of the lists you posted include the sag, so why cry it is broken? If it is SOOOO op, why doesn't anyone use it competitively?

Because it isn't that strong, and orks are not overpowered in the slightest. I also play orks, by the way, so I'm not just talking out of my rear.

So you're suggestion to win is to be an ahole? I'm good.

Pretty much this. Your attitude is disgusting. I agree that the tide is boring, but I'm not going to gak all over someone else who wants to use it.

 Dakkamite wrote:

So you're suggestion to win is to be an ahole? I'm good.

Pretty much this. Your attitude is disgusting. I agree that the tide is boring, but I'm not going to gak all over someone else who wants to use it.

Sorry if you thought I would do that I actually play Orks and I had someone do that to me in a friendly game. I have played Green tide only a handful of times because it takes so long to move the tide that the game becomes incredibly boring for both me and my poor opponent who has to sit there while I move 101+ models during the movement phase, the shooting phase (run) and then sometimes two or three times during the assault phase, (Charge, Initiative step, consolidate). The point I was trying to make is that its not hard to counter it in a tournament setting by just making the green tide player follow the exact wording of the rules.


Regardless though we are way off topic. Can we get back to D weapons and how they need to be strongly nerfed, removed from the game or taken away from 90% of the units that have them?

As far as D weapons go, my suggestion is this:

1- No damage
2-5 - 1d3 wounds, cover and invuln permitted, armor permitted per AP value (which is usually 2 or 1, but)
6 - 1d3+3 wounds, no saves of any kind. Instant Death (if not already).

Wraithcannons and Heavy Wraithcannons: S10 AP2, Distort. Heavy Wraithcannon is Ordnance 1 (36"), Wraithcannon is Assault 1 (12"). Distort: Rolls of 6 to wound have Instant Death, rolls of 6 to penetrate get +4 on the damage chart and (for D-scythes) always penetrate.

D-scythe: S4 AP2, Distort, Template.
Heavy D-scythe: remove, replace with D-cannon

D-cannon: S10 AP2, Heavy 1, Distort, Blast (24")

Reaper Chainsword: S10 AP2, Fleshbane, Armorbane, Instant Death.

Stomp: 6 on a stomp roll is resolved at S10 AP1 Instant Death.

D weapons are fine. They are called destroyer for a reason. i wasn't aware that eldar got D weapons in normal 40k and i had to take some time to accept that. but really destroyer is your answer to anything that must die. right now. in this specific shooting phase.

Then again i was in favour of making official rules for using emps in 30k, so dont mind me

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:
D weapons are fine. They are called destroyer for a reason. i wasn't aware that eldar got D weapons in normal 40k and i had to take some time to accept that. but really destroyer is your answer to anything that must die. right now. in this specific shooting phase.

Then again i was in favour of making official rules for using emps in 30k, so dont mind me

The biggest problem is that D weapons should be TITAN weapons or vehicles designed to kill TITANS. Not for them to be spammed as a flamer variant, nor to be fielded in large numbers in any situation. D weapons are the equivalent of a Nuke. You don't see nukes used in most battles so why are D weapons so prevalent.

The flamer variant isn't really an issue. Keeping it away from high priority targets is. It only does d3 wounds and the guys holding it at that point are 55+ points a piece with one wound and a flame template range.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The flamer variant isn't really an issue. Keeping it away from high priority targets is. It only does d3 wounds and the guys holding it at that point are 55+ points a piece with one wound and a flame template range.

And they can utterly destroy any vehicle they get close to, such as my 780pt Stompa, or my 300pt Morkanaut....

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The flamer variant isn't really an issue. Keeping it away from high priority targets is. It only does d3 wounds and the guys holding it at that point are 55+ points a piece with one wound and a flame template range.

It can remove any vehicle in the game, is on an incredibly tough platform and murders everything it hits.

D should be overpowered yes. It should also only be reserved for vehicles and even then only for SH vehicles and it should come with a huge tax. Take the Shadowsword for instance - 450 points for a Volcano Cannon with 0 degrees of traverse.

Much like several others I'm fine with Destroyer Weapons existing, even with the table the way it is now BUT it's popped up in some places where it really shouldn't and the fix there it is take the D away from those particular units.

5d3 hullpoints (say all hit, 4 roll a 3+, one rolls a 6 on the damage table) will average 10 hullpoints stripped. The stompa will be fine most of the time, and the 5 man unit with flamers is 285 points. If they have the webway portal archon to get them in range effectively then you are looking at a 380 point unt. Even more expensive if they take a wave serpent. So they should be able to stop a morkanaught. If they aren't able to drop it, then the strenght 8 ap2 large blast will probably wipe them out next turn.

Strength D isn't really a problem one you make the "6" roll less obscene, which we did in the first post

Your facts always tend to be subjective to your opinion and entirely unrealistic.

In what world is a single str8 blast hitting and killing 5 multi wound models? If your lucky a small blast hits 2 models and a large blast hits 3 models max that's if you don't scatter at all.

Wriath guard dscythe suck because of its anti vehicle profile however it's sorta limited by the dscythe failure rate of 33% and lack of mobility. The str d weapons are much worse and it's mostly due to the 6d6 plus pen profile.

Wraithguard aren't multi-wound, they're just T6/3+. The Archon is multi-wound, but S8 causes Instant Death on Archons, even though the unit counts as majority T6. Sure, the Archon might make the save on their Shadowfield - statistically they probably will, since it's a 2+ - but fail, and die.

Also, if they're arriving by webway portal, they'll arrive gaggled up: even getting them so that all five Wraithguard can fire is tricky. That's the perfect scenario to paste the whole lot with a large blast.

Side note: Morkanauts have a S8 AP2 Small blast, not large blast.

If they're coming in from the portal even a small blast can catch a bunch of them. All of them if you get a direct hit.

gungo wrote:
Your facts always tend to be subjective to your opinion and entirely unrealistic.

In what world is a single str8 blast hitting and killing 5 multi wound models? If your lucky a small blast hits 2 models and a large blast hits 3 models max that's if you don't scatter at all.

Wriath guard dscythe suck because of its anti vehicle profile however it's sorta limited by the dscythe failure rate of 33% and lack of mobility. The str d weapons are much worse and it's mostly due to the 6d6 plus pen profile.

So, my facts are biased, but you agree with my statement about D weapons and all these guys ^ agree with what I stated because we were talking about a deepstirking pile of wraithguard being the best way to get them in range. So I am not wrong in the slightest.

So things that have been said that I agree with:

* Destroyer weapons should exist.
* Destroyer weapons should be reserved for extra scary or unreliable platforms (like the SAG)
* Eldar wraith weapons probably shouldn't be "Destroyer" weapons.

Now all that said, I'd like to play Horus's advocate for a moment. I know that there was a lot of freaking out when the Eldar book dropped, and I know we've seen more strength D stuff being sprinkled around here and there (mostly as a melee weapon), but is Destroyer stuff really having that big an impact on your games?

In the case of D-weapons placed on things like superheavies, those platforms are generally paying a lot of points for what they get. Destroyer weapons are good at killing whatever you point them at, but doesn't that sort of just make them a counter to expensive units (like knights) in the same way that a flamer or large blast discourages hordes?

Eldar weaponry really shouldn't be Destroyer weaponry, but has the change made them behave dramatically differently?

You were already killing land raiders (or something more competitive) pretty effectively with a squad of wraith guard before. Their guns are overkill now, but were you consistently failing to shoot the snot out of things back with the 6th edition book? The D-scythes change things up a bit because they're more effective than before at overwatch (and they're now able to fill the same niche as their single-shot counterparts against vehicles), but they're still countered in much the same way as before. Wraithguard in general will still die pretty cost-effectively in a number of ways. Just a few off the top of my head:

Tyranids: Sacrifice a cheap unit to overwatch, then smash them up with an MC
Dark ELdar: Poison, disintegrators, dark lances, lhameans, agonizers
Marines: Send in a weak or cheap sacrificial unit to eat overwatch, then win combat slowly-but-surely with a powerfist. Grav, plas, melta, and a few other options should also work. Little wraiths were already more than capable of delivering a hefty blow or two in the last book. They're just more overkill against their initial targets now, right?

And the eldar D-cannon artillery piece is a short-ranged small blast, so it's pretty easy to deal with that.

Now, I'll admit that I haven't faced a lot of D as we simply don't see a lot of it on the table in my area. That said, most varieties of it just don't seem that bad on paper if you aren't throwing a lot of points into one basket. The wraith knight being an exception, but its stomps and durability are more nerve-wracking to me than the D-weapons.

I like the change for distort weaponry, I just think games workshop missed their target with distort last edition. If it had been "on a roll of 6 to penetrate do not roll on the vehicle damage chart, it automatically causes an explodes result."

Then the distrort property would have had an actual effect on vehicles besdies the scythe variant. A roll of 6 to pen would always cause a penetrating hit because nothing in the game is at 16.

As for the wraithknight, it's definitely 100 points too cheap.

Edit: cause my phone doesn't like words for some reason...

^What do you mean an "express result"?

Explodes. Stupid autocorrect.

Ah, okay.

In that case, that might be a little extreme.

and raise the price of the stupid thing by 50-75 points each right? to make it balanced compared to every other armies Dedicated anti tank weapons.

Here's what I would do:

Strength D
Ignores cover and armor.
Invuls and FNP can be taken as normal.
Against Vehicles:
1-nothing
2-5- lose 3hp
6- lose 3hp and roll on the penetration table with a +2 modifier

( per model affected)
Everything else
1-nothing
2- 5- unit suffers 3 wounds
6- unit suffers 3 wounds with the instant death special rule.