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 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's what I would do:

Strength D
Ignores cover and armor.
Invuls and FNP can be taken as normal.
Against Vehicles:
1-nothing
2-5- lose 3hp
6- lose 3hp and roll on the penetration table with a +2 modifier

( per model affected)
Everything else
1-nothing
2- 5- unit suffers 3 wounds
6- unit suffers 3 wounds with the instant death special rule.

So long as it was reduced significantly from the game that would be fine. However since so many D weapons are showing up a lot now and they are under priced now (not the older ones) that is still WAY to over powered. I don't care about the fluff reasons behind 2/3rds of D weapons, they shouldn't be D weapons. NOT trying to create another "I hate eldar" thread but realistically they are the biggest offenders right now. D weapons platforms, D scythes....ridiculous.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and raise the price of the stupid thing by 50-75 points each right? to make it balanced compared to every other armies Dedicated anti tank weapons.

How many didicated anti tank units in the game are T6 3+ save 1 wound and 12" range for just over 30 points per model? These are rediculously short ranged weapons that you have to spend SIGNIFICANT amounts of points to get them anywhere effective. Wraithguard with D weapons aren't broken, the d-cannons are not broken, the only thing with D weaponry in the eldar codex that is actually broken is the wraithknight. I wholly understand the hate for him. Everyone complains about that in particular when they talk about the D, and the idea of the D being in an infantry models hands makes them cringe, but nobody is complaining about said infantry being all over the place and ruining games. It is scatterbikes and wraithknights. Those are the culprits.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's what I would do:

Strength D
Ignores cover and armor.
Invuls and FNP can be taken as normal.
Against Vehicles:
1-nothing
2-5- lose 3hp
6- lose 3hp and roll on the penetration table with a +2 modifier

( per model affected)
Everything else
1-nothing
2- 5- unit suffers 3 wounds
6- unit suffers 3 wounds with the instant death special rule.

Way too under powered, we are talking about cannons that are supposed to knock warlord titans to the ground in one hit, and batteries of them should level planets (and do, fluffwise at least).
I'm sorry, but no matter how much of an eternal warrior you are, you are still going to be atomized by something that strong. the current table is fine, just remove supposed eldar cheese like d strength flamers and scythes, especially on a comparatively cheap platform like a wraith knight..

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and raise the price of the stupid thing by 50-75 points each right? to make it balanced compared to every other armies Dedicated anti tank weapons.

How many didicated anti tank units in the game are T6 3+ save 1 wound and 12" range for just over 30 points per model? These are rediculously short ranged weapons that you have to spend SIGNIFICANT amounts of points to get them anywhere effective. Wraithguard with D weapons aren't broken, the d-cannons are not broken, the only thing with D weaponry in the eldar codex that is actually broken is the wraithknight. I wholly understand the hate for him. Everyone complains about that in particular when they talk about the D, and the idea of the D being in an infantry models hands makes them cringe, but nobody is complaining about said infantry being all over the place and ruining games. It is scatterbikes and wraithknights. Those are the culprits.

Im sorry i should have made it more apparent, I was referring to all Eldar D weaponry. D cannons and D scythes.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's what I would do:

Strength D
Ignores cover and armor.
Invuls and FNP can be taken as normal.
Against Vehicles:
1-nothing
2-5- lose 3hp
6- lose 3hp and roll on the penetration table with a +2 modifier

( per model affected)
Everything else
1-nothing
2- 5- unit suffers 3 wounds
6- unit suffers 3 wounds with the instant death special rule.

Really not liking this particular setup.
To start in a different direction, ignoring cover seems potentially too strong. Otherwise actually underpowered.
Could actually be legitimately WORSE than S10 against a unit with an invulnerable save and/or Feel No Pain.
And also similarly could be worse again against vehicles than high-strength stuff that would penetrate more easily.

Really, the current Destroyer result table isn't so bad (though I could see tweaking the number of Wounds/Hull Points dropped by a 6, and making it only roll on the vehicle damage table once), the problem is D showing up too much in places it really shouldn't be.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and raise the price of the stupid thing by 50-75 points each right? to make it balanced compared to every other armies Dedicated anti tank weapons.

How many didicated anti tank units in the game are T6 3+ save 1 wound and 12" range for just over 30 points per model? These are rediculously short ranged weapons that you have to spend SIGNIFICANT amounts of points to get them anywhere effective. Wraithguard with D weapons aren't broken, the d-cannons are not broken, the only thing with D weaponry in the eldar codex that is actually broken is the wraithknight. I wholly understand the hate for him. Everyone complains about that in particular when they talk about the D, and the idea of the D being in an infantry models hands makes them cringe, but nobody is complaining about said infantry being all over the place and ruining games. It is scatterbikes and wraithknights. Those are the culprits.

Im sorry i should have made it more apparent, I was referring to all Eldar D weaponry. D cannons and D scythes.

Except that the issue is games workshop pricing the last iteration of distort too high for what it gave you. They thought the points added for the rule for giving instant death on a 6 (which only affected monstrous creatures and some bike units) and penetrating hits on a 6 (which games workshop believes to be equivalent to instant death for vehicles) was absolutely useless against most units in the game. The strength D makes av 10 and 11 vehicles more survivable than the strength 10 version because a roll of 1 would always pen or glance, now it does nothing. But it does more to higher av targets due to hull point removal. Any time you roll a 6 and it kills a normal monstrous creature, remember that it doesn't matter how many wounds were removed, it was dead last version of the rule anyway.

Now, I reworked my math for melee attacks in my vehicle design rules, I will take a look at the gork/morkanaught to see where its point value should be. But realise the main issue you are personally running into is ork vehicles are overpriced. With your transports, you are paying extra points for assault because of the ability to add the 'are case upgrade (which doesn't say you keep assault, because reasons), they price the killkannon at thirty points, but the battle cannon at 25, and the naughts were built as superheavy walkers, but were later down graded for some reason to normal walkers. Which wouldn't be an issue but when whoever did it decided to do so they simply dropped the points as if they were lowering speed and removing one hull point. So it still pays points for smash and immunity to the vehicle damage chart despite not having those benefits any more. Your vehicles are really underperforming for their points, it will make any of them destroyed more of a penalty than it should have and makes other army's anti tank weapons seem over powered as a result. I am going to be updating my vehicle design rules in the next week or so with more balanced weapon point values for non superheavy level weapons. (I already did those, most of which I balanced against the shadosword's strD cannon)

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's what I would do:

Strength D
Ignores cover and armor.
Invuls and FNP can be taken as normal.
Against Vehicles:
1-nothing
2-5- lose 3hp
6- lose 3hp and roll on the penetration table with a +2 modifier

( per model affected)
Everything else
1-nothing
2- 5- unit suffers 3 wounds
6- unit suffers 3 wounds with the instant death special rule.

Way too under powered, we are talking about cannons that are supposed to knock warlord titans to the ground in one hit, and batteries of them should level planets (and do, fluffwise at least).
I'm sorry, but no matter how much of an eternal warrior you are, you are still going to be atomized by something that strong. the current table is fine, just remove supposed eldar cheese like d strength flamers and scythes, especially on a comparatively cheap platform like a wraith knight..

So your argument is ...fluff? Not game balance or mechanics?

I'm sorry I must have missed where my Space Marine tactical squads are defeating entire planets by themselves in my army book, and killing 100 orks a piece. That's what my fluff says.

I have removed the random D3 element from the model, and will reliably kill any normal vehicle that it touches and has a chance of killing a Superheavy Imperial Knight in one shot since most D weapons are ap1 already.

As for against infantry. These things are massive blasts evaporating almost everything it touches ignoring armor and cover( obviously its not bypassing a forcefield or the fact that you are only partially in this dimension.

my club makes them a strength we find fitting(usuall 10 or 9) but the destroyer rule means that for each hit counts as 3 separate wounds.

Has anybody done the math on D-scythes vs. a Stomper and compared it to the math for meltaguns vs. a Stomper?

not much to compare, drop pod melta squads are awesome to at killing stompas, but they are a lot less likely to inflict 12 HPs in a turn compared to D-scythes which use the destroyer table so are far more capable of fething up a super heavy.

The scythes can't do more than d3 hull points, and being templates can't fire through allies.

5 meltas in range will do about 5 hullpoints worth of damage, 5 D scythes do about 6. Each of the scythes is 57 points. Not sure on melta vets, but definitely not that much.

For some reason people keep ignoring that scythes CANNOT get a 6 on the destroyer table, and do NOTHING on a 1 or 2.

D-scythes = auto hits so 5 D scythes will hit. then 5 rolls on destroyer table so 1-2 will fail the other 3-4 will do D3 which means on average 6-8 HPs a turn.

5 Meltas on Marines = 4hits and then they have to see if they even dmg the vehicle, (realistically they will but theres still a chance of failure) so 3 do penetrating hits 1 fails completely. so 3 HPs where did you get the 5 from?

I think D is pretty good as it is. Sure Eldar have elites that carry them (*juuuust*that*they*are*the*most*expensive*elites*in*40k) but those units are fairly fragile incredibly short range and pretty easy to simply charge in close combat to nullify.

i.e. they sort of shoot once.

I took 2 squads of wraithguard to a tourney and they spend 2 turns getting into range in most games (even in wave serpents) then they ALL shoot one thing per squad which means if you need only to strip one point of a monolith, it is a utter utter waste, and then they got charged.

Is this every game ? No. But it is possible to do.

I like the d rules because they make the fragile units eldar have count for a lot.

Of course I am not talking about the under costed nature of the WK. That is a different issue

ConanMan wrote:
I think D is pretty good as it is. Sure Eldar have elites that carry them (*juuuust*that*they*are*the*most*expensive*elites*in*40k) but those units are fairly fragile incredibly short range and pretty easy to simply charge in close combat to nullify.

i.e. they sort of shoot once.

I took 2 squads of wraithguard to a tourney and they spend 2 turns getting into range in most games (even in wave serpents) then they ALL shoot one thing per squad which means if you need only to strip one point of a monolith, it is a utter utter waste, and then they got charged.

Is this every game ? No. But it is possible to do.

I like the d rules because they make the fragile units eldar have count for a lot.

Of course I am not talking about the under costed nature of the WK. That is a different issue

Just out of curiousity, what is the armor save for Wraith guard? what is the Toughness of Wraith guard, and for wave serpeants whats the AV and do they get some kind of magical invulnerable save or jink?

Also what is the cost per model of wraithguard with D-scythes.

One of those three pens will be an explodes result, granting an additional d3 hullpoints (so average 2) that is where.

The D scythe wraithguard are 57 (32 base, +25 for the upgrade) points a piece and their transport is an additional 115 (I believe, been sticking with Harlequins since they can out) so the combo of the two (5 wratihguard and a serpent) is about 400 points.

If the wave serpent is jinking, then all it is doing is delivering wraithguard. The idea that a 400 point unit shouldn't put down most things in the game SOMEWHAT reliably is a bit nutty.


Edit: why the devil did I think the upgrade was 25 points!?! It is 10, I still stand by my statement, and apologize for my dumbness

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
One of those three pens will be an explodes result, granting an additional d3 hullpoints (so average 2) that is where.

The D scythe wraithguard are 57 (32 base, +25 for the upgrade) points a piece and their transport is an additional 115 (I believe, been sticking with Harlequins since they can out) so the combo of the two (5 wratihguard and a serpent) is about 400 points.

If the wave serpent is jinking, then all it is doing is delivering wraithguard. The idea that a 400 point unit shouldn't put down most things in the game SOMEWHAT reliably is a bit nutty.

So for comparison though My Meganobz (also Elite choice) have a 2+ save and 2W, so a lot harder to kill....theoretically. But the best weapon they can take (beyond their Power Klaws) is a combi Skorcha And the only vehicle that can realistically deliver them to where they need to go is a Battlewagon which is 110pts naked with 0 Guns on it. So for 400ish points I can have AV14/12/10 vehicle drop off my Meganobz that will assault 1 target and kill it and then get doubled out by all manner of weapons that are in abundance in this game. (Last game I played my opponent figured out that Lascannons double them out without an armor save so he killed them all with a Laspred).

Of course the difference here is that my guys have to get into the assault to actually kill the vehicle so theres a larger chance of failure. How about my Power Klaws get to be D weapons, since thats the trend now adays.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
D-scythes = auto hits so 5 D scythes will hit. then 5 rolls on destroyer table so 1-2 will fail the other 3-4 will do D3 which means on average 6-8 HPs a turn.

5 Meltas on Marines = 4hits and then they have to see if they even dmg the vehicle, (realistically they will but theres still a chance of failure) so 3 do penetrating hits 1 fails completely. so 3 HPs where did you get the 5 from?

Meltas have a 33% on a Pen of getting a Explodes result = +1d3 HPs. Probably that?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind, he already said that!

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
One of those three pens will be an explodes result, granting an additional d3 hullpoints (so average 2) that is where.

The D scythe wraithguard are 57 (32 base, +25 for the upgrade) points a piece and their transport is an additional 115 (I believe, been sticking with Harlequins since they can out) so the combo of the two (5 wratihguard and a serpent) is about 400 points.

If the wave serpent is jinking, then all it is doing is delivering wraithguard. The idea that a 400 point unit shouldn't put down most things in the game SOMEWHAT reliably is a bit nutty.

So for comparison though My Meganobz (also Elite choice) have a 2+ save and 2W, so a lot harder to kill....theoretically. But the best weapon they can take (beyond their Power Klaws) is a combi Skorcha And the only vehicle that can realistically deliver them to where they need to go is a Battlewagon which is 110pts naked with 0 Guns on it. So for 400ish points I can have AV14/12/10 vehicle drop off my Meganobz that will assault 1 target and kill it and then get doubled out by all manner of weapons that are in abundance in this game. (Last game I played my opponent figured out that Lascannons double them out without an armor save so he killed them all with a Laspred).

Of course the difference here is that my guys have to get into the assault to actually kill the vehicle so theres a larger chance of failure. How about my Power Klaws get to be D weapons, since thats the trend now adays.

So, we are going to pretend that every gun that can double you out and ignore your armored doesn't also one shot the wraithguard then? Wraithguard have one wound and are 3+ save. How many krakk missiles does it take on average to kill a mega nobb? As for the battlewagon, you know I am of the position an have explained as such before that it is overcosted by 20 points.

Are you trying to say that your 4 strength 9 ap2 attacks on the charge aren't about equal to the scythes? Even comparing them five on five where the nobbs have a points advantage and they are both targeting a morkanaught.

The wraith guard in a serpent have a 19" threat range and will kill the morkanaught on average rolls. The nobbs will have a 21" threat range lose two meganobs in the ensuing brawl, but doing three pens will probably still drop the morkanaught. And that is with them not taking a scortcha (why would you when you can't fire overwatch and are wanting to close in on things in melee?) And if you take into account my houserule for the battlewagon only cost 290 points.

You are trying to find serious issue with units that aren't actually over powered, the math and actual gameplay says your complaints aren't very reasonable.

Now, if you space marine up the ork codex to give your walkers an extra attack each and drop the meganobs by 5 points a pop (and take my own houserules into account) the orks are absolutely devastating.

I know, my houserules aren't official, I know games workshop screwed the pooch with the ork codex (especially the orkanaughts) but my houserules WILL give you a more balanced game where every faction my rules reference can hang with the most powerful books out there.

just in reply to the dreadnoughts getting bonus attacks just made them actually useful

sorry for the random thought

MANZ are considerably tougher than Wraithguard against anything that isn't S8+ AP 1 or 2. The number of weapons that kill MANZ as effectively as they kill Wraithguard is relatively small and limited mostly to antitank weaponry.

Melta weapons
Lascannons
Heavy rail rifles, railguns
S8+ power claws or power fists
Carnifex, T-C'tan, or Wraithknight melee attacks
All MC Smash attacks
Doomsday cannon
Death ray
Neutron laser
Thermal cannon
D-weapons
Eradication beamer at close range
Conversion beamer at long range


Anything else?

No, that looks about right.

Just how did GW justify Distortion weapons carried by TEq and MC to be on the same level as Destroyer weapons on Super Heavy Vehicles and Walkers?

Because they over coated the old distort ability grossly.