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Why SHOULDN'T you get some form of save against it?

Either you get an Initiative test, Leadership test, or SOMETHING--or Markerlights get stripped down to be the same thing as Auspex or the Omnispex that Skitarii have when it comes to cover: -1 point to cover saves.

With this edition's focus on terrain and cover, having on-demand Ignores Cover with a "50/50 at best chance to hit" is obscene.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why SHOULDN'T you get some form of save against it?

Because I just explained why. The units are a low BS. A simple 3+ makes a full pathfinder squad get 1-2 tokens on average. 2+ would be untouchable. Even 5+ cuts the number from 5 markers down to 3.33.
The low BS balances the unit along with them being VERY fragile. You're talking about making 110 points of 5+ saves completely useless.

Either you get an Initiative test, Leadership test, or SOMETHING--

I- So completely useless against certain armies?
Leadership- Completely worthless against MOST armies
Or what? Those are both terrible.

or Markerlights get stripped down to be the same thing as Auspex or the Omnispex that Skitarii have when it comes to cover: -1 point to cover saves.

With this edition's focus on terrain and cover, having on-demand Ignores Cover with a "50/50 at best chance to hit" is obscene.

So your issue is just with the cover and not the other effects. I don't see how you mentioned daisy-chains really fits into this scenario then.
The problem with just a single point per marker is still rather bad. 4+ cover would take 3 tokens to remove. That's 6 pathfinders minimum buffing another BS3 unit.
Is this also with wanting to take saves?
Because it will be about 18 markers to remove cover from marines alone. Or close to 200 points in two squads.

Just keep telling yourself that those Pathfinders are completely useless and that my issue is "just with the cover".

This right here? This is why I hate playing against Tau. There is a willful ignorance to the power levels in the book and the garbage that is Markerlights.

I didn't say they were useless. I said allowing save, making up a save, or making the cover 1:1 would make them useless.

This right here? This is why hate when people that don't play as a certain army try shoe-horning in what they would think would fix things.

The daisy-chain thing sounds like it's a good idea, but in practice it isn't. It's points being spread too thin when it's better invested in more units. For two markers in FW I could just as easily buy a whole unit of pathfinders for 2 extra markerlights and save some points. With drones, it would end up costing just slightly more but they'd be targeting a unit on their own and not forcing FW to shoot at non-viable targets. Daisy-chains break when you actually want to shoot FW at a target rather than just lay down markerlights.

It's not like I skimmed over the issue with cover. I fully accept that 2 to ignore isn't good. However I made a suggestion to fix that. Rather than removing cover entirely, making it only reduce cover. Again, the 1:1 for cover saves sounds good but it puts markers in the place of never having enough available.

Are you honestly having trouble with T3, 5+, BS3 or T4, 4+, BS2 units? There are so many options available to take units like these down. It's not like either squad has amazing leadership. Just 25% casualties or making them go to ground is enough to cripple the unit for at least one turn if not the rest of the game. Cripple that one unit and the entire army suffers.

If players took "just one unit" of Pathfinders, you would have a point.

And yes. I honestly am. Because I'm not a powergaming toolbag and I play fluff lists, then I get some toolbag throwing Y'Varnas at me with a Commander toting an absurd number of Markerlight Drones and Pathfinders out the wazoo.

So yes. I don't like Tau, and quite frankly?
Markerlights--Flat +1 to BS and a flat -1 to Cover Saves for Markerlights. No stacking.

Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus have no Ignores Cover except for a single weapon(one launcher in the Icarus Array has it) and don't suffer for the fact that Luminagen is a flat -1 stacking with the Omnispex for another -1.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If players took "just one unit" of Pathfinders, you would have a point.

I still have a point. Two units of BS3, T3, 5+ units isn't much more durable.
You still can't answer about how saves would "fix" anything. Especially when you want to compound the problem of 1:1 on the cover issue. Remember? 18 markers?

I honestly am. Because I'm not a powergaming toolbag and I play fluff lists, then I get some toolbag throwing Y'Varnas at me with a Commander toting an absurd number of Markerlight Drones and Pathfinders out the wazoo.

So then fix the Y'varnas. You're wanting everyone to suffer because you have had some bad games. That's not very classy. What are you even doi-

So yes. I don't like Tau, and quite frankly?
Markerlights--Flat +1 to BS and a flat -1 to Cover Saves for Markerlights. No stacking.

-You know if you didn't want to help in this thread you could have started off just saying so and saving both of us some time.
You want, at best, for markerlights to give BS4 and -1 cover.... Seriously? No offense, but that's just stupid. Why not just say you want Tau to autolose every game? Why are you in a thread about Tau fixes if you honestly have no interest in fixing Tau?

Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus have no Ignores Cover except for a single weapon(one launcher in the Icarus Array has it) and don't suffer for the fact that Luminagen is a flat -1 stacking with the Omnispex for another -1.

I really fail to see how that's is Tau's problem or even really relevant. If you want to talk about Skitarii fixes, then please do so. We're talking about fixing an army that wasn't rushed out to add yet ANOTHER IoM ally option.

I've made suggestions elsewhere about the Tau. Namely in the big thread about "fixing Tau".

In this case though, I'm being pretty upfront about the serious issues:
The players who complain that they can't win with Tau are bad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The players who complain that they can't win with Tau are bad.

Nonsequitur. I don't like Trump's immigration standpoints but I'm not going to bring that up in this thread.
I don't think anyone has made that statement nor does the ability to make a competitive build mean there aren't issues with the rest of the codex.
There is a difference between
1.) What can be done to bring this codex inline, balance certain issues, and make all units and options more viable as opposed to monobuilds
and
2.) What can we do to ensure monobuilds and make an army that will autowin turn 2.

You should learn the difference between these two statements before trying to offer "advice"

I would give a couple of upgrades to tau but i would definitely nerf missile sides and Riptides so that I don't spend the entire game trying to kill the damned things or avoiding their Ignores cover fire.

Personally I feel the problem with the Broadside is that it doesn't know what roles it wants to fill.

Honestly I've been considering dropping the plasma rifle option and give it a twin-linked missile pod and SMS as it's secondary weapons.
The HRR could probably get changed to rapid fire and I figure it'd be good as is.
The HYMP I'd prefer to see changed to a few TL small blast templates with maybe S6 AP4.
This to me would separate the two as one being for hunting light armor with the second being for horde control.

The Riptide could be fixed mostly by changing it's Primary weapon. Swapping the Standard and Charged profiles with the Ion Cannon would buff the Hammerhead a bit while reducing the shear damage output of the Riptide.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Personally I feel the problem with the Broadside is that it doesn't know what roles it wants to fill.

Honestly I've been considering dropping the plasma rifle option and give it a twin-linked missile pod and SMS as it's secondary weapons.
The HRR could probably get changed to rapid fire and I figure it'd be good as is.
The HYMP I'd prefer to see changed to a few TL small blast templates with maybe S6 AP4.
This to me would separate the two as one being for hunting light armor with the second being for horde control.

The Riptide could be fixed mostly by changing it's Primary weapon. Swapping the Standard and Charged profiles with the Ion Cannon would buff the Hammerhead a bit while reducing the shear damage output of the Riptide.

so instead of nerfing the broadsides you just buffed them even further...me thinks you missed my point

I admit that the Missile pod might be a bad substitute, but what else is bad about it?
HRR do need a buff. Are you saying they are fine as is?
HYMP need to a nerf, and personally I think a role swap would be more effective than keeping it as a high volume anti-tank weapon.

HRR never see use and are just a bad option compared to the current HYMP. Toning the HYMP down without trying to give a boost to the HRR will not make it a viable option.

Only thing that Tau needs is for everything to get cheaper and it's Decurion style overall command trait to give every model Ignore Cover for free to keep it in line with the SM, Necron and Eldar.
/sarcasm

 Frozocrone wrote:
Only thing that Tau needs is for everything to get cheaper and it's Decurion style overall command trait to give every model Ignore Cover for free to keep it in line with the SM, Necron and Eldar.
/sarcasm

Can't we all just agree that this game has WAY TO MUCH ignores cover as is? I mean besides my orks who only have flamers to do that :(

Is this a thread about how to fix tau or a thread about this guys orks?

It seems to me he is using the Orks as an illustration of a point that is relevant to the topic.

As has been said before in other threads, there are a few major things that need changing in Tau: Riptides, Broadsides, and Markerlights.

The Riptide needs a points increase, along with an increase in the cost of the Ion Accelerator upgrade. In an ideal world, it shouldn't be a Monstrous Creature; by the lore description it's a piloted vehicle i.e. a walker. It's just too durable for its points right now, especially with Feel No Pain.

Markerlights ignoring cover needs to be changed. I was previously in favor of making it just decrease cover, but I can see now that this would require too many markerlights to be effective in most cases. I'm now more in favor of Savageconvoy's idea that Markerlights ignore all cover from area terrain or intervening models. This would still preserve Jink and other bonuses to cover in the open. In addition, Tau need more diverse and effective platforms to field Markerlights. Maybe let vehicles take them instead of gun drones?

Broadsides need to be T5 and Relentless. Their missiles need something done about them; I can get behind changing them to blast weapons (S7 AP4 twin-linked) . The Heavy Rail Rifle and railguns in general need a reason to be taken; give the HRR rapid fire and twin-linked. The game needs less ranged D, not more, so I would instead give railguns armourbane as a special rule.

There are plenty more general fixes to Tau in terms of design philosophy. Tau need more options for mobility and reasons to take their troops. Their alien allies need a reason to be taken as well.

My houserules give tau the following benefits

Railguns who don't have submunitions may become strD for 30 points
Vespids have rending in melee
Cadre fireblades may take one piece of support systems gear
Fire warriors can't all take haywire grenades (sarge can though)

Then a couple of my general houserules really help balance them out

Characters that are only available in a unit get +1 wound to a max of 3
Stealth and shrouded give penalties to ballistic skill instead of bonuses to cover saves. Ignores cover weapons ignore these penalties. That means it is harder for market lights to remove the cover save from dedicated ninja type units because they are harder to hit in the first place (market lights don't have ignores cover, you just can't take cover saves from them because they don't wound.)

If you are having trouble with the forgeworld specific rip tides, house rule them and email forgeworld about what you both think. They are experimental rules, not written in stone. It is literally what forge world is asking everyone to do with them...

Markerlights---36" Assault 1, Target Acquired.
Target Acquired: A hit with a Markerlight causes no Wound but in subsequent shooting attacks against a unit designated by a Markerlight are made at +1 Ballistic Skill and resolved with -1 to any Cover saves the target might be eligible for for the remainder of the Shooting Phase.

Additionally, units firing at a target which has been hit by a Markerlight can reroll failed To Hit or To Wound rolls and make an additional attack with their ranged weapon with an additional 6" added to their weapons' ranges.

Blacksun Filter: Night Vision, Immune to Blind, -1 to Cover Saves when firing at units in Cover.

Pathfinders: Split Fire, Stealth, Scouts, Supporting Fire.
Consists of 4 Pathfinders and a Pathfinder Shas'ui--may purchase an additional 5 Pathfinders at 11 points/each.

High-Yield Missile Pods: S4 AP6 Heavy 1 Large Blast
Copy-pasted over the Valkyrie's Multiple Rocket Pod listing. HYMP are meant to be anti-horde, not what they do now.

Alright once again I'll try to explain what actually needs to be done to the Tau, this coming from a long time Imperial Guard player and Tau player because I'm noticing a lot of over-the-top shenanigans that would just nerf the Tau into the ground.

Riptide: Its points as of now are fine except for the Ion Accelerator, that weapon does need to be increased to about a 25 point cost. Its base stats are nearly identical to a Dreadknight which is much cheaper (using for comparison) and besides being durable it really does tend to lack when it comes to shooting in regards to fire output.

Broadsides: Either make them toughness 5 or give them relentless (one or the other) and make taking the High Yield Missile Pod have a points cost rather than it being free.

Marker Lights: The amount of complaining that the things get makes me laugh, if you guys are having issue killing a toughness three or toughness for model with a 5+ or 4+ save you have other issues in your army that need to be fixed first. In regards to Pathfinders in particular they are a heavy weapon so they cannot move unless they want to risk snapshots. Only thing I would change is for every two Marker Lights it is minus one to cover saves, boosting BS is fine because without it the Tau struggle.

 gmaleron wrote:
Alright once again I'll try to explain what actually needs to be done to the Tau, this coming from a long time Imperial Guard player and Tau player because I'm noticing a lot of over-the-top shenanigans that would just nerf the Tau into the ground.

Oh noooooooooooooooooes, not into the ground!

Hyperbole helps nobody, so try to avoid it when possible mmmkay?

Riptide: Its points as of now are fine except for the Ion Accelerator, that weapon does need to be increased to about a 25 point cost. Its base stats are nearly identical to a Dreadknight which is much cheaper (using for comparison) and besides being durable it really does tend to lack when it comes to shooting in regards to fire output.

Which one, the Dreadknight or the Riptide? Because Riptides can put out plenty of shooting.

Just not when using the Ion Accelerator.

Broadsides: Either make them toughness 5 or give them relentless (one or the other) and make taking the High Yield Missile Pod have a points cost rather than it being free.

Buff HRR to be anti-armor/MC, nerf HYMP to S4 AP6 Heavy 1, Large Blast.

Ideally the HRR should be something like:
Heavy Rail Rifle
60" S8 AP1 Heavy 1, Armourbane, Catastrophic Trauma
Catastrophic Trauma: Shots from a Heavy Rail Rifle cause terrifying amounts of damage to organic matter or vehicles. If a Wound roll for a shot from a Heavy Rail Rifle rolls a 6, then the shot deals D6 Wounds instead of 1.
If a dice from the Armour Penetration rolls a 6, then that shot is counted as having the Lance special rule.


No Relentless--Broadsides are supposed to plant themselves in place and fire, not move and fire. T5 is the way to go along with baking the Missile Drones into the points cost of the Broadside.

Marker Lights: The amount of complaining that the things get makes me laugh, if you guys are having issue killing a toughness three or toughness for model with a 5+ or 4+ save you have other issues in your army that need to be fixed first. In regards to Pathfinders in particular they are a heavy weapon so they cannot move unless they want to risk snapshots.

IF Markerlights were a low range thing, you would have a point about Pathfinders needing to move.
IF Pathfinders did not have Scout, you would have a point.
IF Markerlights were a one and done thing per army, you would have a point.
IF Markerlights weren't something that could be spammed in absurd numbers across an army, you would have a point.

But you have none of those points, so I would suggest you stop laughing and start thinking.

Only thing I would change is for every two Marker Lights it is minus one to cover saves, boosting BS is fine because without it the Tau struggle.

Oh well, if Tau struggle without it...

Markerlights don't need to be flatout removing Cover saves, nor boosting BS by "+1 for each Markerlight Counter used".
The counters need to go, period, because they are what causes the issue.

Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, and Broadside Suits getting +1 BS for simply being a suit with sensors is a much better compromise than continuing to allow that nonsense.

Markerlights shouldn't be something where they get dumped onto a single unit so you can get tons of bonuses for a single unit's shots. They're something which should be spread across the entirety of your force's shooting for a turn.


And while we're at it, all Suits should come with Counterfire Defense System, Target Lock, Multi-Tracker, and Advanced Targeting Systems as standard.

Stimulant Injectors should be restricted to Broadsides, Stealth Suits, and Crisis Suits.

Just pointing out you openly admitted that you're biased against the Tau which might be clouding your judgement in skewing your opinion somewhat. In regards to what you said:

- The Riptide is pretty much useless without the ion accelerator so no it does not put out a lot of shooting. 3 strength 7 ap2 shots or a blast template and a random special weapon does not make for a massive output a fire power.

-The HYMP is perfectly fine at S7 AP4 that stat change is completely over the top, just give it a points increase. The heavy rail rifle is perfectly fine and S8 AP1 and the only thing I would do to change it is to make it a heavy 2 twin linked gun. Since broadsides have access to Skyfire they don't need some crazy shenanigans to make flyers utterly useless when playing them. I could live with the toughness 5 over relentless.

-You do realize that if someone is spamming tons of marker lights in their army that they are limiting and crippling their firepower significantly? Marker lights are not cheap especially when spammed in large numbers. Also the Pathfinders scouting is situational, if their opponent rolled to deploy and go first chances are they're not going to scout to risk them being caught out in the open and so what they have long range, guess what you're fighting Tau.

And sorry we are not getting rid of marker lights, they are one of the things that make Tau unique because without them we are basically just an Imperial Guard army with better guns. Its fluffy and though they are good they are also the biggest weakness of the tower army, if you take them out they will struggle. Demanding we lose marker lights is like me demanding Space Marines no longer have access to grav weaponry, over the top and not going to happen.

-So lets get rid of all the customizable options for the Suits (which is one of the cool things about them) makes sense

 gmaleron wrote:
Just pointing out you openly admitted that you're biased against the Tau which might be clouding your judgement in skewing your opinion somewhat.

And you claim to play Tau(Farsight Enclaves are as much Tau as Elysian Drop Troops are Guard; which is to say they might as well be an entirely different army book), so you're just as biased in an opposite direction.

In regards to what you said:

- The Riptide is pretty much useless without the ion accelerator so no it does not put out a lot of shooting. 3 strength 7 ap2 shots or a blast template and a random special weapon does not make for a massive output a fire power.

"Pretty much useless without the Ion Accelerator" != "Can not put out a lot of shooting".

That's YOU CHOOSING TO SACRIFICE THE ABILITY TO PUT OUT A LOT OF SHOOTING FOR A MORE POWERFUL WEAPON.

It's called making a choice. You don't get to have your cake AND eat it too.

-The HYMP is perfectly fine at S7 AP4 that stat change is completely over the top, just give it a points increase.

The HYMP is meant to be an anti-horde weapon, per its own fluff.

It's not right now. It has absolutely no business being S7 AP4 Heavy 4, especially for free. They literally just copy/pasted the Missile Pod profile and made it Heavy 4 instead of Assault 2.
The profile I gave it is an actual anti-horde profile; or are you in favor of buffing the Multiple Rocket Pod to S7 AP4 as well?

The heavy rail rifle is perfectly fine and S8 AP1 and the only thing I would do to change it is to make it a heavy 2 twin linked gun.

Funny, because something Tau players here whine about is that Heavy Rail Rifles don't do enough. I put out a relatively balanced buff to them and it's too much?

Since broadsides have access to Skyfire they don't need some crazy shenanigans to make flyers utterly useless when playing them.

That's an easy fix:
Heavy Rail Rifle--Due to the fact that this weapon is a precision instrument, it cannot be granted the Skyfire special rule from a Velocity Tracker or Interceptor from an Early Warning Override.

I could live with the toughness 5 over relentless.

Oh well thank God you can live with it.

-You do realize that if someone is spamming tons of marker lights in their army that they are limiting and crippling their firepower significantly? Marker lights are not cheap especially when spammed in large numbers. Also the Pathfinders scouting is situational, if their opponent rolled to deploy and go first chances are they're not going to scout to risk them being caught out in the open and so what they have long range, guess what you're fighting Tau.

If you choose to Scout into the open, that's your own fault.

Not my problem that you play on open tables.

And sorry we are not getting rid of marker lights, they are one of the things that make Tau unique because without them we are basically just an Imperial Guard army with better guns. Its fluffy and though they are good they are also the biggest weakness of the tower army, if you take them out they will struggle. Demanding we lose marker lights is like me demanding Space Marines no longer have access to grav weaponry, over the top and not going to happen.

I suggest you R E A D.

Markerlights---36" Assault 1, Target Acquired.
Target Acquired: A hit with a Markerlight causes no Wound but in subsequent shooting attacks against a unit designated by a Markerlight are made at +1 Ballistic Skill and resolved with -1 to any Cover saves the target might be eligible for for the remainder of the Shooting Phase.

Additionally, units firing at a target which has been hit by a Markerlight can reroll failed To Hit or To Wound rolls and make an additional attack with their ranged weapon with an additional 6" added to their weapons' ranges.

So yes, you can't get up to BS5+ on Overwatch anymore, but you never should have been able to do that in the first place. Markerlights should not have been able to be fired during Overwatch or Supporting Fire.

-So lets get rid of all the customizable options for the Suits (which is one of the cool things about them) makes sense

Right, because "let's get rid of them" is the same as:

And while we're at it, all Suits should come with Counterfire Defense System, Target Lock, Multi-Tracker, and Advanced Targeting Systems as standard.

Stimulant Injectors should be restricted to Broadsides, Stealth Suits, and Crisis Suits.

Their long range is negated by line of sight issues, if the pathfinders are in terrain, they are limiting their ability to use market lights, if they are in the open, they have more targets but die easily. So if your problem is the pathfinders range makes it easier to not move, but then you say that terrain makes it harder to get shots off with marker lights then I guess there is no issue then.

The market lights have worked the way they do for ballistic skill increase since the tau codex first appeared. Marker lights are not a problem whatsoever.

As a side note, nobody has anything to say about what I suggested?

At this point I've given up trying any semblance of a mature discussion, he's raging a little too much for my taste. Just turning into another I hate Tau post

 gmaleron wrote:
At this point I've given up trying any semblance of a mature discussion, he's raging a little too much for my taste. Just turning into another I hate Tau post

Right, because putting actual thought into what I posted is "I hate Tau".
I'd suggest you actually READ. MY. POST.

Did I tone down the amount of Ballistic Skill bonuses you get? Absolutely. Because at this juncture, it's basically guaranteed that Tau will be getting a formation ability to Overwatch at their Ballistic Skill with a new book--and I would not be surprised to see Pathfinders go to BS4. I'm operating under that assumption and going from there.

But since I can almost guarantee that you won't read the post because you're under some impression that it's just blind rage?

Markerlights---36" Assault 1, Target Acquired.
Target Acquired: A hit with a Markerlight causes no Wound but in subsequent shooting attacks against a unit designated by a Markerlight are made at +1 Ballistic Skill and resolved with -1 to any Cover saves the target might be eligible for for the remainder of the Shooting Phase.

Additionally, units firing at a target which has been hit by a Markerlight can reroll failed To Hit or To Wound rolls and make an additional attack with their ranged weapon with an additional 6" added to their weapons' ranges.

So yes. You LOSE the ability to have high Ballistic Skill on everything and the ability to flatout Ignore Cover with any gun you want, but gain an additional attack and 6" of range alongside of rerolling failed TO Hit or To Wound rolls while having an additional point of Ballistic Skill and subtracting 1 from the Cover Saves of a target unit--without having to keep track of counters or expending counters.

Yep. Totally "nerfed into the ground" from my unthinking rage!

Never mind that this would mean your basic Fire Warriors would be:
Ballistic Skill 4 firing 2 shots at 36" range with rerolls of failed To Hit or To Wound rolls without any buffs from a Cadre Fireblade(if the unit doesn't move, that's 3 shots at 36" range and BS4 with rerolls of failed To Hit or To Wound rolls) or an Ethereal's "Storm of Fire".

NERF NERF NERF!

And never mind that Markerlights becoming Assault would mean that players wouldn't feel that they have no choice but to camp out with their Pathfinders...

Blacksun Filter: Night Vision, Immune to Blind, -1 to Cover Saves when firing at units in Cover.

Blacksun Filters are standard on all suits, so all suits firing at units that have been hit by Markerlights are removing 2 points of Cover Saves from their targets. Unless we're talking about a unit with Stealth and Shrouded in Ruins, this is going to effectively still be Ignores Cover.

Pathfinders: Split Fire, Stealth, Scouts, Supporting Fire.
Consists of 4 Pathfinders and a Pathfinder Shas'ui--may purchase an additional 5 Pathfinders at 11 points/each.

Split Fire and Stealth on Pathfinders with no real points update and a mandatory Shas'ui as part of the unit's requirement(which is what it should be to begin with)

NERF NERF NERF!

High-Yield Missile Pods: S4 AP6 Heavy 1 Large Blast
Copy-pasted over the Valkyrie's Multiple Rocket Pod listing. HYMP are meant to be anti-horde, not what they do now.

Realistically, this is the only actual nerf I proposed.

Because the HYMP has no business being as good as it is on the platform that it is.
The Smart Missile System should be given the HYMP's statline and keep its own Homing special rule, while losing the Ignores Cover and being made into a Barrage weapon with a 3" blast.

And yes, I'm aware that this means that you will not be able to Overwatch with HYMPs or SMS. That's the point, they're mean as all get out in their active shooting turn but far less effective during their reactive shooting turn or their Supporting Fire.

Yes you proposed arguments but then you proceeded to belittle and angrily disagree with anyone that had a different opinion other then you. You're not looking for other people's opinion, you're looking for people to agree with yours. As already stated IMO I feel some of your proposed changes are over the top in certain ways, no need to get offended just because other people have different ideas on the subject.

Also to assume anything based on assumption at this point is silly, assuming doesn't solve anything. If the rumors are true the new book will be coming out within a few weeks. There's nothing wrong with speculation but to try and base facts off speculation is silly

I'm not offended "just because other people have different ideas on the subject", I'm offended because you're behaving as though I posted my second wave of ideas in some kind of blind rage and trying to wave it all off as "biased against Tau because you had bad games".

I put far more thought into my second batch of ideas than you seem to have put into yours, which basically seem to amount to "I want buffs but don't want to have to learn my army again because of the nerfs that buffs would entail".

Kanlauwen, you are just so damn toxic when it comes to discussing Tau.

You want to nerf them to the power of the old (bad) codices, when most people are discussing how to bring them in line with the other 7th edition codices. Furthermore, you some how have this religious level bent against the Tau, where you argue for nerfs and when comparisons are made to other powerful things in the game, you either argue those should be nerfed too, or "boo hoo Tau players".

Damn dude. We get it, you want to wield the nerfhammer. The rest of us would like something else.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My houserules give tau the following benefits

Railguns who don't have submunitions may become strD for 30 points
Vespids have rending in melee
Cadre fireblades may take one piece of support systems gear
Fire warriors can't all take haywire grenades (sarge can though)

Then a couple of my general houserules really help balance them out

Characters that are only available in a unit get +1 wound to a max of 3
Stealth and shrouded give penalties to ballistic skill instead of bonuses to cover saves. Ignores cover weapons ignore these penalties. That means it is harder for market lights to remove the cover save from dedicated ninja type units because they are harder to hit in the first place (market lights don't have ignores cover, you just can't take cover saves from them because they don't wound.)

If you are having trouble with the forgeworld specific rip tides, house rule them and email forgeworld about what you both think. They are experimental rules, not written in stone. It is literally what forge world is asking everyone to do with them...

Huh, Vespid with Rending. Hadnt thought about that, might make them decent in Assault, the question is how many Attacks do they have?