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 Elric of Grans wrote:

Davor wrote:
I am curious. What are the wages in Australia? Part of the argument of the Aussies paying so much is because compared to the rest of the world the standard of living is much higher and people are payed more than the rest of the world.

Is this true or just a bunch of bunk to hose the Aussies of prices for everything?

I earn $16 and some change per hour. I believe that is minimum. I get paid sick and annual leave, and a percentage of my gross income is taken out and put into a fund to accumulate for when I retire (this is a legal requirement here). Income tax varies from around 40-50% (I forget the exact numbers), then 10% tax on goods and services. The government is currently looking at adding more taxes to goods, including a special (and very high) tax for online shopping (most Aussies shop online because it is often 1/4 of the price). Housing is crazy here, almost as bad as Japan. The average Australian cannot afford to own a home and it is becoming increasingly common for young people to be unable to afford rent (I fell out of the rental market 5 years ago when rent increases exceeded pay increases). Utilities are insane too, often making up half of a person's net earnings.

I recently heard a representative of Deutchebank stating that they estimate the Australian economy to completely collapse in the very near future with the AUD expected to fall to 0.50 USD. More than likely, GW will be too expensive for the overwhelming majority of Australians in the very near future.

Wow, Elric paints a pretty grim picture. I feel for you guys :(

Taffy17 wrote:
You Australians have a higher minimum wage than us Brits though.

Take a tac squad box. Its £25 and about 3 and a bit times our minimum wage £7 ish and for you guys for you guys its $65, 3 and a bit times minimum wage which is $21 or something like that isn't it?

Actually the miminum wage in Australia is $17.29 (seriously, you could have just googled ). Though it is difficult to actually compare because both the UK and Australia have minimum award rates depending on the industry and job and I believe also lower rates for people under 21.

It also doesn't tell the whole picture by a long shot. In many ways the median wage is more important.

But any sort of direct comparison is hard at the moment because both the British Pound and Australian Dollar have been all over the place. There are plenty of comparisons you can look at online and if you cherry pick the results you can get it to say almost anything you want.

I think the point some of us have been making is that GW is more eager to chase the drops in exchange rate, charging Australians more, but far slower to chase the rises by charging Australians less where most other companies tend to keep a more consistent local pricing, that's (partly) why other games can be more appealing in Australia.

but then you are on the other side of the world and there's shipping and stuff.

In this day and age shipping is sweet feth all, especially for a large company like GW that ships in bulk. The fact that I can buy from Firestorm Games in the UK and get FREE shipping on most items should be indicative enough that shipping shouldn't be a major problem (I'm not saying it'll cost nothing, but it's not the scapegoat it was 15+ years ago).

Any difference in shipping should be more than accounted for by the fact Australian prices include 10% GST while UK prices include VAT which is 20% (unless wargames randomly have some exemption I don't know about?).

I'm not sure how much different cost of living is, i know when i was in australia its something like $10 for an average beer, just under half the minimum wage which is about the same here of £3 ish. most stuff you guys have is well expensive though.

The cost of a beer in a pub in any country varies massively depending on where you buy it. Anywhere in Australia you're paying $10 for an average beer, I'd be guessing most people in that area are NOT on minimum wage. Interestingly enough, one website reckons the price of 0.5L domestic draught in the UK is £3.20 compared to $6.50 in Australia which is actually lower than the UK at current exchange rates, though imported beer (for a 0.33L bottle) is £3.35 in the UK compared to $8.00 in Australia.

Not saying the prices are fair, they're nuts, but you guys aren't getting treated much worse than the rest of us.

Aside from the lack of research in the numbers presented in your post, saying we aren't getting treated *much* worse isn't really a comfort

"GW treats it's customers like gak and Australians aren't treated much worse than gak"

Holy crap. Minimum wage in Canada is between $10-$11. Minimum wage in the USA is $7.25 IIRC, BUT the USD is 25% higher in value (ie $10 CAD = $7.50 USD), so they are not far apart.

In fairness, if minimum wages were 50% higher here, the prices of all of our goods would be higher, too.

I was not aware that UK prices included tax, my bad!! (and wow prices are sure better there then).

Very few people in Australia (or anywhere else in the world) will be buying wargaming products from any company if their only income is minimum wage. Perhaps if you're on minimum wage and are supported by someone else (parents / partner); it still isn't a very comfortable lifestyle. Median wage is probably a much better indicator of affordability. My partner and I both earn slightly above median wage, we have no children, we're paying off a relatively cheap house, and I can afford maybe $250 a month on Wargames if I truly wanted to.

GW charges what they do because they believe it is the price that will maximise their profits. You can call it 'greed' or 'gouging' or 'being a sensible business and not a damned charity' if you want, you can disagree with their analysis that they have found the profit maximising price point if you want, but while GW believes that (and their belief is backed by people continuing to buy) they won't drop prices.

Comparisons to other countries' prices are misleading. GW has managed to execute the canny business decision of effectively geographically segregating their market (something many businesses strive to do), and so at this point railing that X in GBP translates to Y in AUD which is less than the retail Aus price of Z, is about as useful as complaining that beer or bread or milk or gas is cheaper in the UK than in Australia.


@OP. There are tons of games out there that you can play for a fraction of GW's prices. Around my area X-Wing, Warmachine and Malifaux are very common, with Infinity on the rise: you can be playing proper games with any of those systems for less than a single tactical squad. You've got all the dice, paints, terrain etc - giving any other system a go will cost you next to nothing if you're ok with proxying for a few games.

Trasvi wrote:
@OP. There are tons of games out there that you can play for a fraction of GW's prices. Around my area X-Wing, Warmachine and Malifaux are very common, with Infinity on the rise: you can be playing proper games with any of those systems for less than a single tactical squad. You've got all the dice, paints, terrain etc - giving any other system a go will cost you next to nothing if you're ok with proxying for a few games.

Devils advocate - the dice he has will be of little use in Malifaux or Infinity.

That said, half a dozen D20's or a pack of poker cards doesn't exactly break the bank.

I live in the UK, I've been playing for like 12 years plus now, and unfortunately, even without living in a country where the exchange rate is poor, GW have priced me out too. I have a band, and I work self employed as a photographer, so money isn't always as great as it should be, especially outside of festival season etc, so I don't have the constant cashflow to commit the way I used to.

However, I'm not too fussed about having the most recent minis because I can still play with older stuff, and as someone who enjoys the painting side a lot more than the gaming side, I've found cleanup jobs from eBay to be a lot cheaper, and also extremely rewarding. Maybe something to look into?

I personally am exceedingly grateful to GW in that without their price policies and actions over, say, the last ten years, I wouldn't be playing the vast array of games and systems that I do now and would have missed out on a ton of fun.

Just bought Fighting Sail and Jugula from my FLGS - looking forward to trying them out.

To the OP.
Why not just down load some FREE rules , like No Limits, Stargrunt II, etc.And use your 40k minatures with these FREE rules and see if you can have some fun?

Lamborghini has been victimizing me for years!

Nomeny wrote:
Lamborghini has been victimizing me for years!

Not in the least bit the same.

While I agree that "victim" in this context is a bit erroneous, there's a huge distinction between "expensive" and "overpriced" (although they're not mutually exclusive.)

Lamborghini has always been a luxury marque. GW only got so excessively expensive by very rapid price increases since 2007.

It was the doubling of rules and codex prices in 2012 that forced me out.

I agree KilKrazy, I wish the figures were more reasonable/competitively priced to competitors products and I can never see paying more than ~$30USD for a supplementary rulebook or expansion. Fifty bucks for a codex, that doesn't even give you all the rules you need on top of an $85 core rulebook is far too much for me to swallow, on principle alone.

See my sig for all the armies I have collected over the years, no way can I update in a two year window for the cost!

The downloadable rules really should be something found in WD, without them it is little better than fish wrappings.

Looking through back-issues I see so many nifty things, its such a shame that all the talent is gone from GW.

Lanrak wrote:
To the OP.
Why not just down load some FREE rules , like No Limits, Stargrunt II, etc.And use your 40k minatures with these FREE rules and see if you can have some fun?

Gotta agree, there's so much out there now, and with your figures, there's probably a ton you can do.

A single box of 40k Troops has so many weapon and wargear options, it's absolutely perfect for assembling a skirmish force cheaply. Or if you have a bitz box, buy some cheap bodies off eBay and go to town kitbashing.

The big problem may be getting some folks to play against you if you're used to hanging with a 40k-only crowd. Providing both forces and scenery, and a kick-ass scenario, can help break down a reluctance to play.

Play an older version of 40k and get off the power-creep treadmill. A bunch of us are starting 3rd Edition forces, with the intention of just having some fun games. Core rulebook is all you need; codices are cheap as dirt.

Lanrak mentioned some fine games in the quote above, and someone else mentioned Infinity. Malifaux and Warmahordes have cheap (free?) core or starter rules.

Inquisimunda is set in the 40k universe and is free.

In the Emperor's Name is a great skirmish game, free, and has stats for all 40k armies apart from AdMech (the last I looked).

Warzone: Ressurection has free base rules and stats for all the armies in the game.

Victory Decision: Future Combat has a simple core set of rules and a great army builder for low-, medium and high-tech armies. Cost is pretty low, and it's based on the old Mongoose Starship Troopers/Battlefield Evolution rules.

Some folk have used Pulp Alley to create 40k and other SF games. Again, cheap and fun skirmish.

Even the Judge Dredd game (quickstart core rules free from Warlord Games' website) works as a decent generic SF skirmish game. The full game has rules fgear, psychics, vehicles, mutants and dozens of different profiles for everything from mutants, gangers and robots to heavily armed alien mercenaries, battlesuits and city troops. The Dark Judges could even be powerful Chaos Sorcerors...

Your adventures in minis gaming are only just beginning when you break away from the "one company" mindset.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

Davor wrote:
I am curious. What are the wages in Australia? Part of the argument of the Aussies paying so much is because compared to the rest of the world the standard of living is much higher and people are payed more than the rest of the world.

Is this true or just a bunch of bunk to hose the Aussies of prices for everything?

I earn $16 and some change per hour. I believe that is minimum. I get paid sick and annual leave, and a percentage of my gross income is taken out and put into a fund to accumulate for when I retire (this is a legal requirement here). Income tax varies from around 40-50% (I forget the exact numbers), then 10% tax on goods and services. The government is currently looking at adding more taxes to goods, including a special (and very high) tax for online shopping (most Aussies shop online because it is often 1/4 of the price). Housing is crazy here, almost as bad as Japan. The average Australian cannot afford to own a home and it is becoming increasingly common for young people to be unable to afford rent (I fell out of the rental market 5 years ago when rent increases exceeded pay increases). Utilities are insane too, often making up half of a person's net earnings.

I recently heard a representative of Deutchebank stating that they estimate the Australian economy to completely collapse in the very near future with the AUD expected to fall to 0.50 USD. More than likely, GW will be too expensive for the overwhelming majority of Australians in the very near future.

Ouch. Thanks for the answer.

What filbert said. Once you get off the GW-teat, there is a world of wonderful gaming, that runs the gamut of experiences, out there.

OP. Right now it is raining. Keep your head up, you'll eventually see the rainbow.

Pulp Alley is especially awesome for Inquisitor-style narrative skirmishing.

Wow, the new Ad Mec models are AMAZING! Let's go to the GW mail order site.

"Twenty models and an army book. Price: £450"

After two weeks, when I've recovered from the heart attack, I realise the GW has finally lost the plot. £450 is an acceptable startup cost? Yeah, for an XBox One with a few games, but not for a bunch of toy soldiers. Imagine explaining that to your new girlfriend. "Yeah sorry love, I can't come to see you or go out for the next three months because I spent £450 on an army of robots."

@NoPoet: so your girlfriend will respect you more for spending the same amount on an XBox One than on some minis???

where are you seeing £450 for 20 minis and a Codex???
i see a £500 bundle for 43 minis on the UK site, many of which are vehicle and walker sized...

i would never argue that GW is not expensive, but i would argue that the minis have a lot more value than a console and a few games...
i will get many more hours of enjoyment out of the minis, and more importantly, be doing something very creative by building and painting them...


i find it interesting that the OP has not been back to comment since his initial post...
it is possible that he was just having a moment...
it is completely understandable why the Aussies would be put off by GW prices, for sure, but quitting 40K does not equate to quitting gaming, as there are many inexpensive alternatives...
even quitting gaming does not mean quitting minis altogether, as a guy like me who never games, yet is obsessed with minis, proves...
maybe this week it is all good, and he is happily painting some kind of model at the moment, or reading those free Infinity rules...

cheers
jah

There are inexpensive ways to stay in the GW realm too, without resorting to recasters (which are what, 1/3rd the price on average (or less?))

Buying second had bulk lots on ebay is dirt cheap, generally 20-40% of (not off) retail. Cleaning up isn't the end of the world, and then you get to keep on painting/playing.

If you want to paint and can't afford to, we have a thread for that in the P&M forum (doubles as the "I have models and can't paint thread).

For the broader issue of Australia's minimum wage (or even average wage) compared to America's. Cost of living was only briefly touched on. I live on the outskirts of Sydney, it is about 30mi/50ks from the city, and goes rural anywhere past here. The house next door is a horrible little knock-down with gigantic 60year old trees on it, on a small block of land, it just sold at auction for $805k. The woman that bought it did so to help her 20yo son enter the property market.

 jah-joshua wrote:
i find it interesting that the OP has not been back to comment since his initial post...
it is possible that he was just having a moment...

Or, ya know, maybe he genuinely has quit and so isn't following the forum any more because he also hasn't posted anywhere else on Dakka.

It's not really worth making guesses based on someone's lack of posting.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i find it interesting that the OP has not been back to comment since his initial post...
it is possible that he was just having a moment...

Or, ya know, maybe he genuinely has quit and so isn't following the forum any more because he also hasn't posted anywhere else on Dakka.

It's not really worth making guesses based on someone's lack of posting.

that would be a bummer...
i was just being positive, which i understand is frowned upon a bit here...

cheers
jah

kb_lock wrote:
The house next door is a horrible little knock-down with gigantic 60year old trees on it, on a small block of land, it just sold at auction for $805k. The woman that bought it did so to help her 20yo son enter the property market.

That is out of this world. But I believe it. Houses in Toronto go for close to a million, and those are the newer McMansions. Anything with cachet (and therefore location) is dreadful. For that price, I could still get into the commercial market in Montreal.

There is another part of the picture I failed to mention and that is I am on a pension, I have had to move recently and my rent went up a lot, plus I am paying off a $1,000Au loan. My daily budget is around $20Au a day. It is that desperate.

However GW is expensive, but boy it has given me a lot of pleasure and fun over the years.

GW refuses to ever reduce prices. They see it as devaluing their product even if it were driven by exchange rates. GW is on course to becoming purely a domestic UK game because of that.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
There is another part of the picture I failed to mention and that is I am on a pension, I have had to move recently and my rent went up a lot, plus I am paying off a $1,000Au loan. My daily budget is around $20Au a day. It is that desperate.

However GW is expensive, but boy it has given me a lot of pleasure and fun over the years.

GW continues to give me lots of pleasure and fun. The thing is, there's only so many companies of Space Marines that I need. Plus my Hobby is buying GW stuff these days, at the cheapest prices I can find. Interestingly the exchange rate means that Canadian prices are cheaper than buying from the US, even with 15% HST.