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Dante

Hierophant wrote:
Dante and Bjorn are both extremely weary of existence after only a millennium and a half. None of the CSMs seem to have that same ennui.

To be fair though, the CSMs that old are all insane and, in come cases, only care to kill kill kill forever.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

Hierophant wrote:
Dante and Bjorn are both extremely weary of existence after only a millennium and a half. None of the CSMs seem to have that same ennui.

To be fair though, the CSMs that old are all insane and, in come cases, only care to kill kill kill forever.

Fair point with Kharn, but Ahriman and Abaddon still seem rational and focused enough on a specific task.

You could argue that their commitment to that goal is so overpowering that it transcends ennui with age, but is their sense of commitment really stronger than Dante or Bjorn's commitment to defending the Imperium? If their sense of duty could falter after so long, it's just as plausible for a CSM to think 1000 years is enough to no longer care about the Horus Heresy or the Emperor (never mind 10,000), especially when (unlike loyalists) they have nothing in particular stopping them from abandoning their goals, seeing as they're essentially slaves only to their own desires.

It's like when you break up with someone you love. Initially it's horrible, and even after a few years it can be painful, but 5 years on, 10 years on, you can forget what you even saw in them, because people change, and time dulls the memory. 10,000 years on, and you likely wouldn't even recall they existed, never mind still be upset about it. I know Marines are single-minded, but 10,000 years is a lot of time to commit to a single ideal, especially among a group like the CMSs that have already shown they're capable of breaking with one set of ideals.

Well, Arhiman been turned into a suit of walking armor. Not sure they even really count as Marines anymore

Bjorn, Kharn, Abaddon, Fabulous Bill, and a handful of others, all date back to the Great Crusade. Given that time passes differently on different planets, determining which of these is older than another is going to be impossible, but there's a fair number of people considered "oldest".

On the Loyalist side, however, Bjorn is stated to be the oldest living Space Marine. Dante is only 1100 years old, Bjorn is nearly ten times that old.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, Arhiman been turned into a suit of walking armor. Not sure they even really count as Marines anymore

No he hasn't. The Rubric did not affect the Thousand Sons who were powerful psychics, except to cure them of the flesh change.

 Psienesis wrote:
Bjorn, Kharn, Abaddon, Fabulous Bill, and a handful of others, all date back to the Great Crusade. Given that time passes differently on different planets, determining which of these is older than another is going to be impossible, but there's a fair number of people considered "oldest".

On the Loyalist side, however, Bjorn is stated to be the oldest living Space Marine. Dante is only 1100 years old, Bjorn is nearly ten times that old.

As stated, Dante is actually 1300 years old, and stated to be possibly older, and Bjorn was interned in a Dreadnaught when he was touching 1000 years old. After that, he only spent 500 years in 'active' service, before basically being in semi-permanent stasis, only revived for brief periods of time once a century for the occasional ceremony or in a dire emergency.

Considering even in his 500 years of active Dreadnaught service he will have spent a decent amount of time in stasis, Dante could reasonably be said to be possibly slightly physically older than him by now, if not even remotely close chronolgically.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, Arhiman been turned into a suit of walking armor. Not sure they even really count as Marines anymore

No he hasn't. The Rubric did not affect the Thousand Sons who were powerful psychics, except to cure them of the flesh change.

Ahh thats right. Forgot it didn't effect the psykers.

Bjorn has spent large amounts of "recent" past in stasis... but prior to then, there's 10,000 years of him to be active. Even if the SW wake him up once a century, there's nothing saying that he's not active for 20 years at each point.

In such a case, he gains 200 years every millennium, which means he's got about 2000 years on him, on top of his thousand-years of life prior to internment.

 Psienesis wrote:
Bjorn has spent large amounts of "recent" past in stasis... but prior to then, there's 10,000 years of him to be active. Even if the SW wake him up once a century, there's nothing saying that he's not active for 20 years at each point.

In such a case, he gains 200 years every millennium, which means he's got about 2000 years on him, on top of his thousand-years of life prior to internment.

He's definitely older than Dante, even only counting his time out of stasis. But even during the Battle of the Fang, in M32, it is mentioned that he spends more and more time in stasis because of how much of a strain it has been on his mind. At this point he is probably only awake for a specific deployment/mission and then goes right back into stasis.

Sure, but if we're looking at it from the viewpoint of advancing senility and dementia, 10,000 years is a really long time. He could have been clocking in some serious up-time hours in the first 3, 4 thousand years and then started easing off, up til today where he's awake 15 minutes per century.

Other than in SW armies, of course. Then? Bjorn is in like 90% of the battles... though these might just be his stasis-dreams.

Bjorn, well he is oldest in fact was in the real world, not warp magical time, dreadnought sleepy time though helps.

Loyalist Non-Dread? Dante
Loyalist Dread? Bjorn
Traitor? Ahriman

Of the Veterans of the Long War, it's Abaddon, Fabius, Kharn, and Ahriman. Of those, Abaddon is the youngest.

Of Loyalists, it's Bjorn, Cypher, or Merir Astelan (Fallen who was recruited on Terra), depending on how you view the two latter's loyalty. Merir certainly claims to be Loyal.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Bjorn probably.

Remember that Cypher is a title, not a name. The Cypher of today is not the same Cypher that was around during the Heresy.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Given that caliban was destroyed and the fallen cast into the warp, it most likely is the same cypher as the heresy, most csm special characters are heresy relics.

+1 Abaddon.

I believe its been confirmed that its not the same Cypher.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Bjorn probably.

Remember that Cypher is a title, not a name. The Cypher of today is not the same Cypher that was around during the Heresy.

We know who Cypher is, it's Zahariel considering that Cypher is supposed to be a powerful psyker and was telling the story of Zahariel's past to a group of Fallen with information only he could know.

Also, oldest Astartes is Ahriman, not Abaddon. Ahriman is from Terra itself and is a first generation Astartes. I think Kharn may be the same age as IIRC he may have been first generation.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Cypher is not Zahariel, he becomes one of the founding grey knights and is featured in the pandorax novel.

Uh, talk about a logic fail. Zahariel never became a Grey Knight- he was stuck on Caliban until the betrayal and got sucked away into the Warp like all the other Fallen. The Grey Knight in pandorax was talking about how he switched places with Zahariel, who was supposed to be a Grey Knight but he changed fates- that's also what the Lord of Change was going on about.

We do not know who Cypher is, but he is either Zahariel or an unknown DA. The issue is partially in the crunch, with Cypher NOT being a psyker anywhere near the strength of Zahariel. Furthermore, in the acknowledgements in Pandorax it is heavily suggested Epimetheus is Zahariel. I've still not listened to the audio book with Cypher, anyone wanna gimme a quick recap?

 Psienesis wrote:
Sure, but if we're looking at it from the viewpoint of advancing senility and dementia, 10,000 years is a really long time. He could have been clocking in some serious up-time hours in the first 3, 4 thousand years and then started easing off, up til today where he's awake 15 minutes per century.

Other than in SW armies, of course. Then? Bjorn is in like 90% of the battles... though these might just be his stasis-dreams.

My point was that he started being left in stasis fairly early though. In Battle of the Fang, where the entirety of the Space Wolves save for one company go after Magnus, they left Bjorn in stasis down in the depths of the Fang. So apparently even by M32, he was already being woken up very rarely.

If we are going by non-chaos,non-life support, Dante wins

Anval Thawn. Currently a Grey Knight, but is a perpetual and has been around for a long, long time.

@ Chaz Zahariel and cypher go to investigate the corruption and cypher runs off, leaving Zahariel alone.

Both Kharn and Ahriman fought in the unification wars on Terra.

Oldest loyalist seems to be Bjorn. Non-entombed is Dante at 1300 years.

The custodes at Terra might qualify as space marines, and might be terribly old, as might at least one of the thunder warriors accoring to some canon. There is also at least one BA chapter that spends time in stasis between missions. If you count that they might have some really old members.

Out of the CSM there is the characteres Kharn, Fabulous Bill and Ahriman were all recruited on earth and is about the same age, fighting in the unification wars. Bill even taunts a marine in one of his novels that he "breathed the same air as the emperor" etc.

Ahriman was before Kharn, dont they mention a part of their history in Thousand sons and then speak of Kharn in galaxy of flames?, though dates are used to confirm Ahriman was the oldest. Its a conversion about a badge or pin, which recalls Ahriman to speak of himself and his deceased twin brother being chosen at birth for destiny to take place in the foreseen unification wars.

 triplegrim wrote:
The custodes at Terra might qualify as space marines, and might be terribly old, as might at least one of the thunder warriors accoring to some canon. There is also at least one BA chapter that spends time in stasis between missions. If you count that they might have some really old members.

Neither Custodes nor Thunder Warriors are Space Marines. The Space Marine template was developed from the Thunder Warrior, but was different. And the Custodes are something else again.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Bjorn probably.

Remember that Cypher is a title, not a name. The Cypher of today is not the same Cypher that was around during the Heresy.

As one of the Fallen, by definition he is. but time displacement is in play, so he hasn't aged much.

The problem with Bjorn is that he lived just shy of 1000, then served "only" 500 years as a Dreadnought in active service. He was then woken only rarely since - for serious crises involving the Chapter, and for 1 day a century for a special feast.

The problem comes when calculating jusy how much time a Dreadnought is awake per year in average service, considering they spend most of their downtime in stasis even then. And it's entirely possible Bjorn has only been active cumulatively for about 100 years in the last 10,000. In a slow millennium, he's only guaranteed to be awake for 10 days of it.

This is why my vote always goes to Dante. Everyone else has too many caveats and guesses.

Hierophant wrote:
The problem with Bjorn is that he lived just shy of 1000, then served "only" 500 years as a Dreadnought in active service. He was then woken only rarely since - for serious crises involving the Chapter, and for 1 day a century for a special feast.

The problem comes when calculating jusy how much time a Dreadnought is awake per year in average service, considering they spend most of their downtime in stasis even then. And it's entirely possible Bjorn has only been active cumulatively for about 100 years in the last 10,000. In a slow millennium, he's only guaranteed to be awake for 10 days of it.

This is why my vote always goes to Dante. Everyone else has too many caveats and guesses.

But Dante's age is full of guesses as well, even Bjorn's "just shy of 1000" plus the 500 years of immediate dreadnought service could very well put him past Dante. We just don't know.

Dreadnoughts are in their own category due to the way they're stored in stasis between deployments. Hell, Dante is old but he's not even the oldest Blood Angel if Dreads count - some Librarian Dreadnoughts are said to have been present for the Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy.

Spetulhu wrote:
Dreadnoughts are in their own category due to the way they're stored in stasis between deployments. Hell, Dante is old but he's not even the oldest Blood Angel if Dreads count - some Librarian Dreadnoughts are said to have been present for the Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy.

Source? (Non-sarcasm, really want to know)

Would it not also depend on the planet? Surely each marine would reckon his age based upon year length on his home planet?

The IoM counts it time in terra years.

Between Warp travel, relativistic effects and other mumbo-jumbo all Marine's ages are up for debate, including Dante's.
So the only reasonable measurement is DoB to "now" 40K; though I will agree it's not necessarily reflective of active years in service.

Another really old Loyalist is Ulrik the Slayer. IIRC he was already a Wolf Priest when Logan Grimnar (himself over 700 years old) was recruited into the Wolves.
I very much doubt the Wolves recruit their Wolf Priests straight out of the Blood Claws, so he should be at least - what? 100, 200 years older than Grimnar. Still not enough