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 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
My question is, why should they? If anyone doesn't want to speak English, doesn't want to follow customs/values, doesn't want to assimilate, there is nothing wrong with that. I say, just let people dicside what they want to do instead of pressuring them.

You really dont see anything wrong with that? For starters its incredibly rude and arrogant.

Really? It's rude for them to not want to change their culture to suit you? I'm not seeing it.


And arrogant? They want to hold on to what they know. What they grew up with. They are proud of their culture, so they don't want to change it.

I think a balance is needed here. For example people who don't learn the language of the country they decide to live in should be pressured to learn the language of the country.

However we should not force them to do away with their attire or their food they grew up with.

It works both ways, this is one way culture changes over time. It would be silly to think you can move to another culture and live your life exactly as you did and even if you try to live exactly as you once did then your kids will certainly assimilate into the culture of the country.

It works both ways, one must be tolerant while the other must be understanding.

If Government derives its power from the people, then it should speak the language of the people. That might just be libertarian silly talk on my part though, so whatever floats your boat.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
My question is, why should they? If anyone doesn't want to speak English, doesn't want to follow customs/values, doesn't want to assimilate, there is nothing wrong with that. I say, just let people dicside what they want to do instead of pressuring them.

You really dont see anything wrong with that? For starters its incredibly rude and arrogant.

Really? It's rude for them to not want to change their culture to suit you? I'm not seeing it.


And arrogant? They want to hold on to what they know. What they grew up with. They are proud of their culture, so they don't want to change it.

Then why did they leave...?

Maybe its just me, but if I moved to say...Japan, I wouldnt refuse to even attempt to learn the language and continue acting like a typical 'donkey-cave American". It would be rude and disrepsectful to the new culture I'm a part of.

 Swastakowey wrote:

I think a balance is needed here. For example people who don't learn the language of the country they decide to live in should be pressured to learn the language of the country.

However we should not force them to do away with their attire or their food they grew up with.

It works both ways, this is one way culture changes over time. It would be silly to think you can move to another culture and live your life exactly as you did and even if you try to live exactly as you once did then your kids will certainly assimilate into the culture of the country.

It works both ways, one must be tolerant while the other must be understanding.

My family is an interesting example of generational differences, even though we all moved to the country at the same time. I am a US citizen by birth, but my mother and my younger brother are permanent residents. But I spend the first 16 years of my life in Germany and grew up as a German, only learning the little bit of English that I learned in the German school system (and let me tell you how much help rudimentary British English really is when you end up in redneck Oklahoma). Despite my citizenship by birth I very much consider myself an immigrant as well.

My mother is a good example of a first generation immigrant: moved here in her 40s, spend all her adult life in Germany before moving here, keeps very much in touch with all her old friends at home, identifies as German, observes German customs, we speak German to each other, and she is upset that my younger brother won't really speak German.

I am a good example of what you normally see in a second generation immigrant: I still had exposure to Germany so it influenced me, but I also finished maturing in the US so the American mindset is also very much a part of my identity. I solidly identify as German as well as American. I learned English by immersion and speak it fluently, but I still speak German to my family and I am making sure that my daughter learns it as part of her heritage. I celebrate German holidays as well as US holidays, although I am very much more German than American when it comes to Christmas traditions. I still have a lot of the German mindset when it comes to certain areas (you get somewhere on time, none of that "if they say 4 then we should be a little late" business) but I also have a lot of the US values as well. For certain holidays I will fly the German flag, but if I have the German flag (or the Bavarian or Franconian flag) hanging I always have the US flag hanging in the proper place of honor as well. And while I really don't care if any of my German flags are laying crumbled up on the floor, the US flag always gets folded and put back on the shelf where it belongs when it's done.

My younger brother is a good example of what you would normally see in a third generation immigrant: he was 8 when we moved here, but he very much identifies as American. Doesn't really speak German to my mom, although I'm still managing to get him to talk German to me. His dad was a jackass, so his US step-dad is his father to him which also pushes him more towards his identify as an American. He is about as Okie as you can get growing up in western Oklahoma.

We were all shaped by our cultures, both old and new, and as we grow into these cultures they are also shaped by us.

+1 For that post

Thanks for sharing

 Swastakowey wrote:


I think a balance is needed here. For example people who don't learn the language of the country they decide to live in should be pressured to learn the language of the country.

However we should not force them to do away with their attire or their food they grew up with.

It works both ways, this is one way culture changes over time. It would be silly to think you can move to another culture and live your life exactly as you did and even if you try to live exactly as you once did then your kids will certainly assimilate into the culture of the country.

It works both ways, one must be tolerant while the other must be understanding.

I say, as long as they can operate, it's fine. And if they can't operate, that's what will push them. Change will happen naturally, and pushing it can be less beneficial, as a complete rejection may occur.

Basically, just leave people alone, don't try and force them to do anything.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


I think a balance is needed here. For example people who don't learn the language of the country they decide to live in should be pressured to learn the language of the country.

However we should not force them to do away with their attire or their food they grew up with.

It works both ways, this is one way culture changes over time. It would be silly to think you can move to another culture and live your life exactly as you did and even if you try to live exactly as you once did then your kids will certainly assimilate into the culture of the country.

It works both ways, one must be tolerant while the other must be understanding.

I say, as long as they can operate, it's fine. And if they can't operate, that's what will push them. Change will happen naturally, and pushing it can be less beneficial, as a complete rejection may occur.

Basically, just leave people alone, don't try and force them to do anything.

With that attitude one my of my friends would still be jobless in my friends basement playing video games all day... I would not have done any school work as a kid if that was my parents attitude... Hell if I had that attitude who knows how my children would start behaving.

Many people need to be pushed. It's easy to say "leave everyone ALONE!" but in practice it fails.

If you can't speak English in an English country it means you cannot work properly (or at all), it means you can't properly socialize, you will struggle to be educated and the list goes on. Under your version of the world these people will just come and get money for nothing (because how can they get money without the language?) etc and do nothing with themselves (not all but some could) and we as a society do not want people who contribute nothing to society.

So yes we should force some culture on those who dwell there, but not erase their culture in the process. It makes sense to do this.

Diversity is all well and good, overspecialization leads to extinction and all that. But as far as nations go: united we stand, divided we fall. People can be diverse while still sharing an overarching common purpose, such as national unity.

 d-usa wrote:
My mother is a good example of a first generation immigrant: moved here in her 40s, spend all her adult life in Germany before moving here, keeps very much in touch with all her old friends at home, identifies as German, observes German customs, we speak German to each other, and she is upset that my younger brother won't really speak German.

Oh man, my family went totally differently. Although it's not immigrating, exactly, when my grandmother moved to NYC from Puerto Rico (late 20s, spoke only broken english), if any of her kids spoke spanish in the house she would beat them bloody. It might not be a great example because she was a crazy person, though (sadly, "beat them bloody" was neither hyperbole nor relegated solely towards the speaking of spanish).

It's a shame because as a result, my mother only speaks bad spanish, and i speak no spanish, and wish I did. I think I'm too old and stupid to learn now, though. So in my opinion, it's great that you're passing that on to your daughter, as I wish my mom had passed it to me.

Apparently my Great-Grandfather, who moved to the US in the 20-30s from Italy, wouldn't let any of his kids learn Italian for the same reasons with essentially the same results.

Dear Mexico, I will accept your tacos and tequila as they are tasty and good. Siestas are also welcomed as I am on board with anything that helps me dodge out of work. These things I will gladly assimilate into my culture.

However I draw the line at speaking Spanish or you know... accepting your people.

Sincerely,

America

@Ahtman, Ouze

I suspect a lot of that may just be what it was like in those times. People came to America to be a part of America. Now, it seems like people come to America just to be in America. It's kind of like that first line in The Godfather "I believe in America. America has made my fortune." Both of those lines were true back then, but today people may only be seeking the fortune? I don't know, just thinking out loud here.

America isn't a multicultural state. It is not how our immigration system is supposed to work. America is the borg, assimilate....

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yet things have become so muddled that not knowing Spanish in certain areas of the country is a serious handicap.

Are you going to back that up with any facts or is it just going to be one of those things you accept as true just because you said it?

Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

But we love capitalism, so why is that a problem?

If there has been anything that has more eroded our sense of national identity more than the Internet and Netflix, I am not aware of it. Blame liberal professors and the education of multiculturalism all you want, but it is in our lack of a shared base entertainment that is the real cause. As a liberal college professor of film for many years who tries to keep politics out of class because I get paid to educate students to think for themselves and write analyses based upon their perceptions, and outside evidence --that is the real culprit--a lack of a shared medium.

 d-usa wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

But we love capitalism, so why is that a problem?

Nothing is wrong with needing it. Its a legitimate need. Whats an issue is why its so necessary in the first place.

This is a bad example, but its similar. Its like how we need doctors because people get sick.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

But we love capitalism, so why is that a problem?

Nothing is wrong with needing it. Its a legitimate need. Whats an issue is why its so necessary in the first place.

This is a bad example, but its similar. Its like how we need doctors because people get sick.

Language skills, and the cultural competencies that go hand-in-hand with them, will always be necessary in a globalized world, and that necessity isn't going to start shrinking anytime soon. It's growing, and will continue to do so. Anyone in America who is pushing for less language education and foreign language learning is, quite frankly, foolish. As a country, we are already incredibly behind the curve compared to many, many other countries. The majority of the world's population is multilingual. The fact that most Americans are monolingual is nothing but a detriment.

I agree 100% that immigrants to the US ought to learn English as soon as possible. I do not think that we should be pushing for English at the expense of other languages, however, which seems to be what a puzzlingly large segment of the more conservative American population seems to be striving for.

The fact that many native English speakers can't even write competently in their own language isn't exactly a good sign. Some of my best students as far as writing essays and having basic grammatical skills have been ESL students.

Thats usually true for anyone learning a foreign language. You're going to be sloppy with your native language, not one you had to learn in school.

America has always had some friction with immigrants. And we have had a history of immigrant groups that created their own neighborhoods. A few cities had a Little Italy or a Chinatown with people that spoke non English languages in public and for business. It is just the nature of a country of immigrants. Some will integrate; some will not. It's always been like this; there are places that you can go where people only speak Spanish, Amharic, Vietnamese, and a few other languages. I don't see the problem. If you wish to deal with them, you learn their language. They have to when they decide to deal with the outside world.

American culture really is a nebulous term; it really differs based based on where in the country you are. The culture of ATL is totally different than Nome, Alaska. But they are both American.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats usually true for anyone learning a foreign language. You're going to be sloppy with your native language, not one you had to learn in school.

So hooray for not learning a foreign language because it makes you better at that language and better at your own language? Umm... Yea? Go USA?

I'm not saying people shouldn't learn a foreign language. I'm saying its a little ridiculous to need one to function in your own country AND for someone to move to another country and not learn the language. Its also very silly for immigrants to make their own little ghettos and not at least partially assimilate.

Ahh, I got you now. The more languages, the better. I couldn't agree more. Sorry for the confusion.

Just read the bible, god agrees too.

Gordon Shumway wrote:The fact that many native English speakers can't even write competently in their own language isn't exactly a good sign. Some of my best students as far as writing essays and having basic grammatical skills have been ESL students.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats usually true for anyone learning a foreign language. You're going to be sloppy with your native language, not one you had to learn in school.

Grey Templar has the right of it. Many people are sloppy in their native language. Also, while important, writing isn't the only communicative competency when it comes to language.

In my experience, learning a foreign language actually made me better at my native language as well. And in terms of grammar rules and understanding the way the language is structured, someone who studied a foreign language to a high level (whether at a university or on their own) are often more knowledgeable in the mechanics of the language than many native speakers, particularly native speakers that didn't study the language at university. That doesn't necessarily translate into being able to communicate in the language better than a native speaker, however, although it's certainly possible to reach a native-like or near-native level.

Using poor writing skills in English as an excuse to ignore or degrade foreign language education isn't much more than a red herring.

Plus while you might have a technical knowledge of the language, it doesn't mean you are any good at speaking it conversationally.

My family hosted several exchange students. All of them had "mastered" their English courses in school, but they had very bad conversational English till they'd lived here for a few months.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't learn a foreign language. I'm saying its a little ridiculous to need one to function in your own country AND for someone to move to another country and not learn the language. Its also very silly for immigrants to make their own little ghettos and not at least partially assimilate.

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of countries where the average person speaks multiple languages regularly, out of necessity.

You certainly don't need anything other than English to function in the US. And while I don't recommend it, there are also quite a few countries in which English is not the native language, but you can get away with only speaking English.

Depends on where you live.

As someone who lives in CA, and will be working in agriculture, I am retaking Spanish because I would be pretty fethed if I didn't speak at least some and I remember almost nothing from when I took it in high school.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Plus while you might have a technical knowledge of the language, it doesn't mean you are any good at speaking it conversationally.

My family hosted several exchange students. All of them had "mastered" their English courses in school, but they had very bad conversational English till they'd lived here for a few months.

Exactly, hence my comment on it not necessarily translating into the ability to actually communicate better than a native speaker. Communicative competencies like conversational speech are skills that require practice, like learning a musical instrument or a sport. If the courses they took consisted primarily of reading and writing and little or no actual speaking, they're not going to be good at speaking. Just as a course focused exclusively on speaking isn't going to produce someone who can competently read and write in a language. This kind of thing is also how we end up with native speakers who are illiterate. Pretty much everyone speaks something in day to day life, but even as a native speaker, if no one ever teaches you to read and write, you're not going to spontaneously learn how just because you can speak the language at a native level.