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 Grey Templar wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

So I'm going to take that as a "no?"

Ok dude. Seriously, I shouldn't have to explain how Spanish is pretty much fething mandatory in certain areas or careers today.

This is elementary level stuff here. Or are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?

No, you're make a fairly extraordinary claim and I'm asking you to prove it. What areas and what careers is it "mandatory?" Just repeating the claim again doesn't make it any more true than the first time you said it.

I've lived and worked in the Southwest and I currently live and work in the Mid-Atlantic region and I've been to almost every state in the Union. At not time was not knowing Spanish a detriment to me.

Well, customer service and retail just to name a few.

Anything involving labor management in agriculture as well. This is really basic stuff here.

I did not make an extraordinary claim. I might as well have claimed chickens have feathers.

Seaward wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
As immigrants assimilate into our culture, our culture will also assimilate the traditions and values that they bring to our country.

I'm told by people who make coffee for a living that the correct term for that is "cultural appropriation."

I never liked that term. The cultures supposedly being appropriated probably got a lot of their traditions from other cultures. Few human cultures develop in a vacuum.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, customer service and retail just to name a few.

Anything involving labor management in agriculture as well. This is really basic stuff here.

Oh it is, is it? Is it mandatory just because you say it is or are you actually going to back that up with anything other than "you just know?" I work in a Hispanic-dominated field and not knowing Spanish hasn't hurt my career. I'd also like to point out that this was your claim:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yet things have become so muddled that not knowing Spanish in certain areas of the country is a serious handicap.

It wasn't about jobs where Spanish speaking is handy, it was just living in "certain areas." I understand that jobs can want people to be bilingual, but where in this country do you need to know Spanish just to get by, as per your original claim?

I did not make an extraordinary claim. I might as well have claimed chickens have feathers.

Do even read some of the gak that spills out of your keyboard?


EDIT: Apparently I can't format tonight...

Nearly 43% of people in California do not speak English as their primary language. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/43-in-state-speak-other-than-English-at-home-3193867.php

I'd say being unable to communicate, or at least have your communication impaired, with 43% of people would be a serious disadvantage.

Really, if you work in a hispanic dominated field this is something you would know. I have doubts that your claim to work in said field is true.

This link explains the importance of learning spanish. http://www.businessinsider.com/reasons-for-learning-spanish-2014-2

Because of the fast growing hispanic population, and the fact that many 2nd generation children are not learning English as their first language, not knowing Spanish, particularly in the South-west and CA in particular is a problem. And its only going to become a worse one as the hispanic population grows. If you don't know Spanish, you're going to be disadvantaged over anyone who does.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have doubts that your claim to work in said field is true.

I'm going into my 15th year of construction.

I'm a steamfitter out of Steamfitters UA Local 602 in Washington, DC and previously out of Plumbers & Pipefitters UA Local 525 in Las Vegas, NV.

Also, the second paragraph of your link says this:

Speaking another language at home doesn't mean they don't also speak English in the home.

That article didn't say that 43% of people don't speak English, it says they speak languages other than Englsih. It also says that fewer than 9% don't feel they speak English very well. Hardly numbers to justify the claim that there are "certain areas" where speaking Spanish is "serious handicap."

So you work in a place on the completely opposite side of the country from where there are lots of hispanic people? Only 10% of DC is Hispanic, as opposed to California where its around 40%.

That article didn't say that 43% of people don't speak English, it says they speak languages other than Englsih. It also says that few than 9% don't feel they speak English very well.

Hence why I said "or have communication impaired".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
That article didn't say that 43% of people don't speak English,

I did not claim it did. It says they do not speak it in their home, which is another way of saying its not their first language. Thats going to cause some communication issues, unless they're also perfectly fluent in English. Which is possible, but the opposite is also true.


Maybe you'll like these,

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001-05-09-spanish-usat.htm

http://www.studyspanish.com/topten_reasons.htm

http://www.babbel.com/magazine/johnson-01-american-spanish

 Grey Templar wrote:
So you work in a place on the completely opposite side of the country from where there are lots of hispanic people? Only 10% of DC is Hispanic, as opposed to California where its around 40%.

I guess you missed the part about living and working in Nevada. Anyways, I don't work in DC, that is just where my local is based and in reality, our union hall is Maryland. Also, where I live in Virginia has an Hispanic/Latino population of over 35%. All of the counties around me also hover around the 20% total population mark.

Hence why I said "or have communication impaired".

Keep on moving those goalposts!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
That article didn't say that 43% of people don't speak English,

I did not claim it did. It says they do not speak it in their home, which is another way of saying its not their first language. Thats going to cause some communication issues, unless they're also perfectly fluent in English. Which is possible, but the opposite is also true.

Here is what you said:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd say being unable to communicate, or at least have your communication impaired, with 43% of people would be a serious disadvantage.

Nowhere in that article did it claim that 43% of people couldn't communicate in English. In fact, it said less than 9% don't speak English very well.

Again, I'm still waiting for you to back up the claim that "things have become so muddled that not knowing Spanish in certain areas of the country is a serious handicap."

Why don't you learn Spanish if communicating with them is so important to you? Sounds to me like your feelings are hurt because they don't seem to want to talk to you!

 feeder wrote:
Why don't you learn Spanish if communicating with them is so important to you? Sounds to me like your feelings are hurt because they don't seem to want to talk to you!

I am learning Spanish. Because its vitally important. I'd be pretty boned if I couldn't speak any.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Why don't you learn Spanish if communicating with them is so important to you? Sounds to me like your feelings are hurt because they don't seem to want to talk to you!

I am learning Spanish. Because its vitally important. I'd be pretty boned if I couldn't speak any.

Awesome, good for you! Immigration is enriching your life and making you a smarter and more valuable person.

 feeder wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Why don't you learn Spanish if communicating with them is so important to you? Sounds to me like your feelings are hurt because they don't seem to want to talk to you!

I am learning Spanish. Because its vitally important. I'd be pretty boned if I couldn't speak any.

Awesome, good for you! Immigration is enriching your life and making you a smarter and more valuable person.

I think you missed my point. I was correcting Scooty who seems to be under the impression that not knowing Spanish isn't a detrimental thing. I was not saying it wasn't any of those things, which were not part of the discussion.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Why don't you learn Spanish if communicating with them is so important to you? Sounds to me like your feelings are hurt because they don't seem to want to talk to you!

I am learning Spanish. Because its vitally important. I'd be pretty boned if I couldn't speak any.

Awesome, good for you! Immigration is enriching your life and making you a smarter and more valuable person.

I think you missed my point. I was correcting Scooty who seems to be under the impression that not knowing Spanish isn't a detrimental thing. I was not saying it wasn't any of those things, which were not part of the discussion.

Being monolingual is a detrimental thing, period. So if you only speak English, of course not knowing Spanish is going to be detrimental. That doesn't mean you can't get by without it, however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Well then you likely never will understand it.

You seemed to be suggesting that making an oath is something that only someone who has sworn an oath will understand. I am quite capable of dedicating myself to an ideal or a cause (and in fact I am currently working in (and spent some time getting to a point where I could work in) a field where I get to dedicate myself to fulfilling a number of my ideals and causes); why would it make any difference to avow myself verbally to these ideals or causes?

If you take an oath and then break it, it's usually considered a bigger deal than if you just privately dedicated yourself to something and then changed your mind later.

Don't your government and military officials swear oaths as well? It's not like it's a specifically American thing. And in case it was unclear, when we are referring to oaths, we're not referring to the pledge of allegiance. That's something else.

People are getting rather hung up on oaths and languages.

The USA has a different culture to New Zealand and the UK. Obviously the shared language contributes to sharing cultural artifacts but it is not a determinant.

I would suggest that everyone understands the meaning of swearing oaths, because being truthful and keeping promises is drummed into children in practically all cultures as an important virtue. At the same, people generally understand that a forced promise is morally worthless and not binding.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So you work in a place on the completely opposite side of the country from where there are lots of hispanic people? Only 10% of DC is Hispanic, as opposed to California where its around 40%.

That article didn't say that 43% of people don't speak English, it says they speak languages other than Englsih. It also says that few than 9% don't feel they speak English very well.

Hence why I said "or have communication impaired".

The irony of somebody complaining about people not speaking English well using the phrase 'hence why' is delicious.


A hell of a lot of places in the world ask for their employees to speak English as well as their native language. Because it benefits them massively whilst doing buisiness. Its only your position as an American which has allowed you to get by speaking only one language for so long.

 insaniak wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to offer a definition... a general description, even... of "our culture" that immigrants should be adhering to.

Careful what you wish for. Some years ago, the Australian government instituted a test covering values, history and general legal structure that forms part of the requirements for becoming a citizen. Surverys showed that around two-thirds of Australians were unable to pass that test.

The US has a similar test too for becoming a citizen. Hopefully it won't be too long before I take it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
People are getting rather hung up on oaths and languages.

The USA has a different culture to New Zealand and the UK. Obviously the shared language contributes to sharing cultural artifacts but it is not a determinant.

I would suggest that everyone understands the meaning of swearing oaths, because being truthful and keeping promises is drummed into children in practically all cultures as an important virtue. At the same, people generally understand that a forced promise is morally worthless and not binding.

That's a good point. And also another indication of why breaking an oath is usually seen as a bigger deal. Oaths are normally taken willingly (some actually require that it be taken willingly, such as the Oath of Office) while plenty of kids say the pledge in school simply because it's what they do in the morning, and don't really consider the meaning of it.

I think another point that has been raised by the last four pages, but scarcely addressed cogently is the fact that culture is not a static entity. You can't ever pin it down because it is something that is constantly in flux. Denying it only removes you further from it in it's current iteration. You can pine away all you want for "how things were" but a clock rarely runs backwards of it's own accord.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think another point that has been raised by the last four pages, but scarcely addressed cogently is the fact that culture is not a static entity. You can't ever pin it down because it is something that is constantly in flux. Denying it only removes you further from it in it's current iteration. You can pine away all you want for "how things were" but a clock rarely runs backwards of it's own accord.

That's true. Culture certainly is constantly evolving. Another thing that I think a lot of people have trouble with is that culture is by nature participatory. You can participate in it, or not, or even some degree in between. This becomes problematic when certain people approach culture as something palpable that can be possessed or pinned down and therefore owned. But that isn't really the case. Culture only exists in the present by participation, and participation is also what causes culture to change and evolve. When there are no longer any participants, it ceases to exist, at least in the present, outside of memory and cultural history.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Full quote.

"We're a pluralistic society. We're diverse, we have people that come from everywhere. We're not multicultural. We have a set of shared values that defines our national identity, and we should never veer away from that because that creates the extraordinary nature of our country."

Thoughts? Comments? Rage? Applause?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/25/politics/jeb-bush-free-stuff-black-voters/index.html

We did. Now not so much.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to offer a definition... a general description, even... of "our culture" that immigrants should be adhering to.

Have you ever read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or recited the Pledge of Allegiance? Those three items define what it means to be American.

But do not define "American Culture" in any way, shape or form. I, also, don't say the pledge, because it's changed at the whim of Congress, depending on which Big Bad we want to fight. It also suggests a violation of the Constitution in its utterance.

The fact that many of the Americans on this forum think the pledge is not a core part of American culture perhaps indicates that it is really not a core part of American culture.

Guns probably are, since everyone seems to have a strong view for or against. In other words, American culture partly is defined by an obsession with guns, in a way that the rest of western culture is not.

That would be a good description of a trait of "American Culture".

Guns.
Cars.
Fast food.
The Wild West.
Jeans.
Hollywood.

These things are examples of what American Culture is centered on.

 Psienesis wrote:
That would be a good description of a trait of "American Culture".

Guns.
Cars.
Fast food.
The Wild West.
Jeans.
Hollywood.

These things are examples of what American Culture is centered on.

You forgot Texas Women.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That would be a good description of a trait of "American Culture".

Guns.
Cars.
Fast food.
The Wild West.
Jeans.
Hollywood.

These things are examples of what American Culture is centered on.

You forgot Texas Women.

As my dad was recovering from double-lung transplant... we had a very 'Murrican moto to inspire him during his recover...

"In no particular order... Beach, Babes, Boobs, Boats, and Beer!"

There you go

You forgot "Big Dogs" Whembly

I can't help but think that a lot of these, perhaps all of them, are indicative of "White America". Which brings me back to my original question: What is American culture?

 Psienesis wrote:
I can't help but think that a lot of these, perhaps all of them, are indicative of "White America". Which brings me back to my original question: What is American culture?

Well, in my experience, when people talk about American culture, they tend to conflate it with white america.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Well, in my experience, when people talk about American culture, they tend to conflate it with white america.

Do you have any examples or evidence of this?

Psienesis wrote:I can't help but think that a lot of these, perhaps all of them, are indicative of "White America". Which brings me back to my original question: What is American culture?

How are those things indicative of "White America" and not America in general? Do non-white Americans generally not participate in those things?