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I think thats because writing systems that don't use pictographs are completely arbitrary. They have no inherent logic other than what is given to it arbitrarily.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to offer a definition... a general description, even... of "our culture" that immigrants should be adhering to.

Have you ever read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or recited the Pledge of Allegiance? Those three items define what it means to be American.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think thats because writing systems that don't use pictographs are completely arbitrary. They have no inherent logic other than what is given to it arbitrarily.

That's certainly part of it. Language in general, when you get down to it, could be seen as arbitrary. They make sense as a system, but you have to be familiar with the system, otherwise you have no frame of reference.

Think of an object, like a leaf, for example. What is a leaf? A leaf isn't really a thing, leaf is just the word we use for the thing that we call a leaf. A leaf is what it is, no matter what we call it. If we called it something else, it would still be what it is.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Some of my best students as far as writing essays and having basic grammatical skills have been ESL students.

I'm on a campus with 36,000 undergrads and I can tell you that this is certainly not the case at my school. Writing a 15 page properly formatted research paper with appropriate in text citations, grammar, and structure is not the strong suit of the foreign national students or ESL students where I'm at. But hooray for having an "Undocumented Student Center" when there are people living in this town that can't get a slot at the school.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to offer a definition... a general description, even... of "our culture" that immigrants should be adhering to.

Have you never read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or recited the Pledge of Allegiance? Those three items define what it means to be American.

I think you could even boil it down further to just the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I might include the Declaration of Independence in there as well. I realize it's not a legally binding thing like the Constitution, but I would include it as a sort of guiding document, if that makes sense.

I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Yeah, I used to feel differently, but I'm not big on the pledge anymore quite honestly. I'm not necessarily against it, but I don't feel the need to say it to prove my patriotism or loyalty or whatever, and I find its origins somewhat suspect. I'm not pushing to get rid of it if people want to say it, but if it was done away with, I wouldn't have an issue with that either.

 Hordini wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to offer a definition... a general description, even... of "our culture" that immigrants should be adhering to.

Have you never read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or recited the Pledge of Allegiance? Those three items define what it means to be American.

I think you could even boil it down further to just the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I might include the Declaration of Independence in there as well. I realize it's not a legally binding thing like the Constitution, but I would include it as a sort of guiding document, if that makes sense.

Solid.

I think the Bill of Rights is kind of the summation of what it means to be an American citizen. Those are the enumerated fundamental rights which define our identity. I would say that the Declaration is semi-lyrical description of the underlying values of those defined rights. The Pledge defines our relationship to the state.

 Hordini wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Yeah, I used to feel differently, but I'm not big on the pledge anymore quite honestly. I'm not necessarily against it, but I don't feel the need to say it to prove my patriotism or loyalty or whatever, and I find its origins somewhat suspect. I'm not pushing to get rid of it if people want to say it, but if it was done away with, I wouldn't have an issue with that either.

I went back and forth.

When I moved here and we said it every morning in school, I never said it. I stood up out of respect to everyone else, but I felt like I would be betraying "my" country that I grew up in (that tricky being a citizen from birth but feeling like an immigrant bit).

During my early and mid twenties I said the pledge without any problems.

During my late twenties on I started to feel like pledging to a piece of cloth is silly and that the oath I swore to the constitution was worth more than any pledge to a symbol. Together with the flag-burning issue it caused me to stop pledging.

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

I think it depends. I think if someone has sworn an oath to the Constitution, there's really no need to continue pledging, as I would agree with d-usa that the oath takes precedence and renders the pledge redundant in that individual's case. If you're not oath-bound and want to affirm your allegiance or loyalty, then it makes more sense.

After much reflection on the matter, I also agree with d-usa that it's somewhat silly to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. I respect the flag as a symbol and believe in what it stands for, but at the end of the day, my allegiance is to the country, not the cloth. If the flag was changed to something else or done away with, it wouldn't change my allegiance. If the Constitution was done away with, that would cause some issues.

 Hordini wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

I think it depends. I think if someone has sworn an oath to the Constitution, there's really no need to continue pledging, as I would agree with d-usa that the oath takes precedence and renders the pledge redundant in that individual's case. If you're not oath-bound and want to affirm your allegiance or loyalty, then it makes more sense.

After much reflection on the matter, I also agree with d-usa that it's somewhat silly to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. I respect the flag as a symbol and believe in what it stands for, but at the end of the day, my allegiance is to the country, not the cloth. If the flag was changed to something else or done away with, it wouldn't change my allegiance. If the Constitution was done away with, that would cause some issues.

Hmmm.

As someone who has sworn an oath, I can't disagree with the logic. I guess for me the flag is the representation of the nation-state, not just a piece of cloth. I think that the Pledge is an affirmation of loyalty to both the Constitution and the state (not to mention the citizenry) rather than a literal pledge to the flag itself.

<shrug> But yeah, I do see your point.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

I think it depends. I think if someone has sworn an oath to the Constitution, there's really no need to continue pledging, as I would agree with d-usa that the oath takes precedence and renders the pledge redundant in that individual's case. If you're not oath-bound and want to affirm your allegiance or loyalty, then it makes more sense.

After much reflection on the matter, I also agree with d-usa that it's somewhat silly to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. I respect the flag as a symbol and believe in what it stands for, but at the end of the day, my allegiance is to the country, not the cloth. If the flag was changed to something else or done away with, it wouldn't change my allegiance. If the Constitution was done away with, that would cause some issues.

Hmmm.

As someone who has sworn an oath, I can't disagree with the logic. I guess for me the flag is the representation of the nation-state, not just a piece of cloth. I think that the Pledge is an affirmation of loyalty to both the Constitution and the state (not to mention the citizenry) rather than a literal pledge to the flag itself.

<shrug> But yeah, I do see your point.

And just to be clear, I'm not completely poo-pooing the pledge or anything, I don't have a problem with people saying it, I wouldn't discourage anyone from saying it if they want to, and I'm not saying I would never say it again under any circumstances. But if someone tried to tell me that I wasn't a "real" American or I wasn't a "good" American if I didn't say the pledge, I would certainly disagree with that. I also understand that it's really important to some people and that's okay too. But I don't think it's a necessity for some sort of litmus test of American culture as much as the Constitution or Bill of Rights should be.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

Honestly, a couple of reasons.

1) The pledge, at the very core, was nothing more than a marketing gimmick by a socialist who wanted to sell more flags. So he invented a ritual that required that you purchase a flag, and thus his sales went up. At a later point there was some religion added to it, and that is how we got where we are today.

2) None of our rights or freedoms come from the flag. It's a symbol of our rights and freedoms, but if every single flag was suddenly gone tomorrow nothing in our lives would change.

3) People want to make it illegal to burn it. And honestly, that to me is the biggest reason why I no longer pledge to it because I realized how dangerous it can be to put a symbol on a pedestal. The flag is a symbol of our rights, including the right to free speech. And free speech includes the right to burn the flag, wear it as a diaper, tear it to shreds, put Obama's face on it, replace the stripes with the gay rainbow colors, blow your nose on it, and do whatever the heck you want with it. The flag isn't great because it just happens to be pretty colors, or because of those nifty 13 stripes and 50 stars, it is great because it is a symbol of our freedoms. That's why people fight for the flag. They don't fight for that piece of cloth, they fight for what it stands for. But none of our freedoms come from the flag. And I feel that once a symbol becomes more important than what it represents, then you have entered into dangerous territory. When protecting the flag becomes more important than protecting the freedoms it stands for, then the flag has lost its meaning.

I know that there are a lot of people who will disagree with that, and you won't find me trying to talk people out of saying the pledge. I don't think it should be mandatory and people should have the right to opt out of saying it in school as long as they are doing so in a respectful manner to those that are participating, but I'm not against the pledge itself. I don't like flag burning or any other acts of flag desecration, and I think it is a disrespectful act. I fly the flag on holidays, I keep it folded up and stored in a safe spot when it is not flying, I participated in many flag retirement ceremonies with the VFW and it was always an honor to help those vets with paying their last respect to those flags. I try to follow the flag code and I won't even buy flag-pattern plates because I feel like a flag shouldn't be used to serve your hot dog on and you shouldn't throw a flag in the trash or wipe your face with it in the form of a napkin. I have a great of respect for the flag, but my allegiance goes to the constitution and not the symbol.

To bring this back to culture: I think part of that might also be growing up in a country where we don't really place much emphasis on flags. We identify with our city and state more than our country, and you are much more likely to find local flags flying instead of national flags. Growing up as a German I am also mindful of symbols becoming more powerful than rights and freedoms. So that might have something to do with it as well.

I hope that makes sense. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I hope that you can at least see why I feel this way.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Some of my best students as far as writing essays and having basic grammatical skills have been ESL students.

I'm on a campus with 36,000 undergrads and I can tell you that this is certainly not the case at my school. Writing a 15 page properly formatted research paper with appropriate in text citations, grammar, and structure is not the strong suit of the foreign national students or ESL students where I'm at. But hooray for having an "Undocumented Student Center" when there are people living in this town that can't get a slot at the school.

Weird. I live in SD where the acceptance criteria is pretty low, admittedly (18 on the ACT or equivalency exams) and I haven't found that to be the case at all in twenty years of teaching 125 students per semester or so. Where do you teach?

 d-usa wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

Honestly, a couple of reasons.

1) The pledge, at the very core, was nothing more than a marketing gimmick by a socialist who wanted to sell more flags. So he invented a ritual that required that you purchase a flag, and thus his sales went up. At a later point there was some religion added to it, and that is how we got where we are today.

2) None of our rights or freedoms come from the flag. It's a symbol of our rights and freedoms, but if every single flag was suddenly gone tomorrow nothing in our lives would change.

3) People want to make it illegal to burn it. And honestly, that to me is the biggest reason why I no longer pledge to it because I realized how dangerous it can be to put a symbol on a pedestal. The flag is a symbol of our rights, including the right to free speech. And free speech includes the right to burn the flag, wear it as a diaper, tear it to shreds, put Obama's face on it, replace the stripes with the gay rainbow colors, blow your nose on it, and do whatever the heck you want with it. The flag isn't great because it just happens to be pretty colors, or because of those nifty 13 stripes and 50 stars, it is great because it is a symbol of our freedoms. That's why people fight for the flag. They don't fight for that piece of cloth, they fight for what it stands for. But none of our freedoms come from the flag. And I feel that once a symbol becomes more important than what it represents, then you have entered into dangerous territory. When protecting the flag becomes more important than protecting the freedoms it stands for, then the flag has lost its meaning.

I know that there are a lot of people who will disagree with that, and you won't find me trying to talk people out of saying the pledge. I don't think it should be mandatory and people should have the right to opt out of saying it in school as long as they are doing so in a respectful manner to those that are participating, but I'm not against the pledge itself. I don't like flag burning or any other acts of flag desecration, and I think it is a disrespectful act. I fly the flag on holidays, I keep it folded up and stored in a safe spot when it is not flying, I participated in many flag retirement ceremonies with the VFW and it was always an honor to help those vets with paying their last respect to those flags. I try to follow the flag code and I won't even buy flag-pattern plates because I feel like a flag shouldn't be used to serve your hot dog on and you shouldn't throw a flag in the trash or wipe your face with it in the form of a napkin. I have a great of respect for the flag, but my allegiance goes to the constitution and not the symbol.

To bring this back to culture: I think part of that might also be growing up in a country where we don't really place much emphasis on flags. We identify with our city and state more than our country, and you are much more likely to find local flags flying instead of national flags. Growing up as a German I am also mindful of symbols becoming more powerful than rights and freedoms. So that might have something to do with it as well.

I hope that makes sense. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I hope that you can at least see why I feel this way.

I don't think I could agree more.

 d-usa wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

Honestly, a couple of reasons.

1) The pledge, at the very core, was nothing more than a marketing gimmick by a socialist who wanted to sell more flags. So he invented a ritual that required that you purchase a flag, and thus his sales went up. At a later point there was some religion added to it, and that is how we got where we are today.

2) None of our rights or freedoms come from the flag. It's a symbol of our rights and freedoms, but if every single flag was suddenly gone tomorrow nothing in our lives would change.

3) People want to make it illegal to burn it. And honestly, that to me is the biggest reason why I no longer pledge to it because I realized how dangerous it can be to put a symbol on a pedestal. The flag is a symbol of our rights, including the right to free speech. And free speech includes the right to burn the flag, wear it as a diaper, tear it to shreds, put Obama's face on it, replace the stripes with the gay rainbow colors, blow your nose on it, and do whatever the heck you want with it. The flag isn't great because it just happens to be pretty colors, or because of those nifty 13 stripes and 50 stars, it is great because it is a symbol of our freedoms. That's why people fight for the flag. They don't fight for that piece of cloth, they fight for what it stands for. But none of our freedoms come from the flag. And I feel that once a symbol becomes more important than what it represents, then you have entered into dangerous territory. When protecting the flag becomes more important than protecting the freedoms it stands for, then the flag has lost its meaning.

I know that there are a lot of people who will disagree with that, and you won't find me trying to talk people out of saying the pledge. I don't think it should be mandatory and people should have the right to opt out of saying it in school as long as they are doing so in a respectful manner to those that are participating, but I'm not against the pledge itself. I don't like flag burning or any other acts of flag desecration, and I think it is a disrespectful act. I fly the flag on holidays, I keep it folded up and stored in a safe spot when it is not flying, I participated in many flag retirement ceremonies with the VFW and it was always an honor to help those vets with paying their last respect to those flags. I try to follow the flag code and I won't even buy flag-pattern plates because I feel like a flag shouldn't be used to serve your hot dog on and you shouldn't throw a flag in the trash or wipe your face with it in the form of a napkin. I have a great of respect for the flag, but my allegiance goes to the constitution and not the symbol.

To bring this back to culture: I think part of that might also be growing up in a country where we don't really place much emphasis on flags. We identify with our city and state more than our country, and you are much more likely to find local flags flying instead of national flags. Growing up as a German I am also mindful of symbols becoming more powerful than rights and freedoms. So that might have something to do with it as well.

I hope that makes sense. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I hope that you can at least see why I feel this way.

Great comment, agree 100%. I love my country, the constitution, freedom, and capitalism...but this flag idolatry needs to stop. Worshipping the object takes away from the actual thing the object represents.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The fact that many native English speakers can't even write competently in their own language isn't exactly a good sign. Some of my best students as far as writing essays and having basic grammatical skills have been ESL students.

To be fair, I taught undergraduates for a few years and some of my worst writers were foreign students. These weren't immigrants though.

The woman I was dating at the time was a full professor with her doctorate and foreign applicants often referred to her as "Mrs" or "ms" and took very informal tones with their correspondences. These applications of course went right in the trash. Meanwhile students referred to me as Dr. Even before I earned my PhD. There was a good bit of sexism from many of the foreign students but according to some in this thread, that's their culture and we should respect it.

 d-usa wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't say the pledge, I guess I'm a bad American...

Why?

Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents. Personally I feel that it negates the enormous sacrifices that people have made to form that state, and its also a slap in the face to every immigrant who has worked to obtain that citizenship.

Honestly, a couple of reasons.

1) The pledge, at the very core, was nothing more than a marketing gimmick by a socialist who wanted to sell more flags. So he invented a ritual that required that you purchase a flag, and thus his sales went up. At a later point there was some religion added to it, and that is how we got where we are today.

2) None of our rights or freedoms come from the flag. It's a symbol of our rights and freedoms, but if every single flag was suddenly gone tomorrow nothing in our lives would change.

3) People want to make it illegal to burn it. And honestly, that to me is the biggest reason why I no longer pledge to it because I realized how dangerous it can be to put a symbol on a pedestal. The flag is a symbol of our rights, including the right to free speech. And free speech includes the right to burn the flag, wear it as a diaper, tear it to shreds, put Obama's face on it, replace the stripes with the gay rainbow colors, blow your nose on it, and do whatever the heck you want with it. The flag isn't great because it just happens to be pretty colors, or because of those nifty 13 stripes and 50 stars, it is great because it is a symbol of our freedoms. That's why people fight for the flag. They don't fight for that piece of cloth, they fight for what it stands for. But none of our freedoms come from the flag. And I feel that once a symbol becomes more important than what it represents, then you have entered into dangerous territory. When protecting the flag becomes more important than protecting the freedoms it stands for, then the flag has lost its meaning.

I know that there are a lot of people who will disagree with that, and you won't find me trying to talk people out of saying the pledge. I don't think it should be mandatory and people should have the right to opt out of saying it in school as long as they are doing so in a respectful manner to those that are participating, but I'm not against the pledge itself. I don't like flag burning or any other acts of flag desecration, and I think it is a disrespectful act. I fly the flag on holidays, I keep it folded up and stored in a safe spot when it is not flying, I participated in many flag retirement ceremonies with the VFW and it was always an honor to help those vets with paying their last respect to those flags. I try to follow the flag code and I won't even buy flag-pattern plates because I feel like a flag shouldn't be used to serve your hot dog on and you shouldn't throw a flag in the trash or wipe your face with it in the form of a napkin. I have a great of respect for the flag, but my allegiance goes to the constitution and not the symbol.

To bring this back to culture: I think part of that might also be growing up in a country where we don't really place much emphasis on flags. We identify with our city and state more than our country, and you are much more likely to find local flags flying instead of national flags. Growing up as a German I am also mindful of symbols becoming more powerful than rights and freedoms. So that might have something to do with it as well.

I hope that makes sense. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I hope that you can at least see why I feel this way.

Pretty great post. A+, would exalt again.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to offer a definition... a general description, even... of "our culture" that immigrants should be adhering to.

Careful what you wish for. Some years ago, the Australian government instituted a test covering values, history and general legal structure that forms part of the requirements for becoming a citizen. Surveys showed that around two-thirds of Australians were unable to pass that test.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

So I'm going to take that as a "no?"

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Refusal to recite the Pledge, as a US citizen, is a 100% refutation of everything that the state represents.

No, it really doesn't.

I love my country bu I don't say the pledge for a number of reasons, a lot of which d-usa already covered, especially point number three.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Hmmm.

As someone who has sworn an oath, I can't disagree with the logic. I guess for me the flag is the representation of the nation-state, not just a piece of cloth. I think that the Pledge is an affirmation of loyalty to both the Constitution and the state (not to mention the citizenry) rather than a literal pledge to the flag itself.

<shrug> But yeah, I do see your point.

I have never quite understood the prevelance of oath-making and/or pledging in America (or indeed anywhere else). It is even more baffling when these are made to a flag, rather than to a nation, institution or set of values. It is also quite annoying in many of these things that one has to also get everything signed off by a magical being (though I understand that at least that component is at least being seen as optional in some situations ).

The vocalisation of your supposed intent in no way represents your genuine feelings on the matter. A person who is going to lie in court will do so, no matter what oath they make. A person who pledges to a flag to uphold liberty and justice for all can still be a biggoted donkey cave and attempt to deny people their rights because of the colour of their skin, the direction they face to pray, who they love, or the fact that they are wearing blended fabrics...

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Hmmm.

As someone who has sworn an oath, I can't disagree with the logic. I guess for me the flag is the representation of the nation-state, not just a piece of cloth. I think that the Pledge is an affirmation of loyalty to both the Constitution and the state (not to mention the citizenry) rather than a literal pledge to the flag itself.

<shrug> But yeah, I do see your point.

I have never quite understood the prevelance of oath-making and/or pledging in America (or indeed anywhere else).

Well then you likely never will understand it.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

The vocalisation of your supposed intent in no way represents your genuine feelings on the matter. A person who is going to lie in court will do so, no matter what oath they make. A person who pledges to a flag to uphold liberty and justice for all can still be a biggoted donkey cave and attempt to deny people their rights because of the colour of their skin, the direction they face to pray, who they love, or the fact that they are wearing blended fabrics...

And sometimes, someone who breaks an oath can actually turn out to be an okay guy:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Hmmm.

As someone who has sworn an oath, I can't disagree with the logic. I guess for me the flag is the representation of the nation-state, not just a piece of cloth. I think that the Pledge is an affirmation of loyalty to both the Constitution and the state (not to mention the citizenry) rather than a literal pledge to the flag itself.

<shrug> But yeah, I do see your point.

I have never quite understood the prevelance of oath-making and/or pledging in America (or indeed anywhere else). It is even more baffling when these are made to a flag, rather than to a nation, institution or set of values. It is also quite annoying in many of these things that one has to also get everything signed off by a magical being (though I understand that at least that component is at least being seen as optional in some situations ).

The vocalisation of your supposed intent in no way represents your genuine feelings on the matter. A person who is going to lie in court will do so, no matter what oath they make. A person who pledges to a flag to uphold liberty and justice for all can still be a biggoted donkey cave and attempt to deny people their rights because of the colour of their skin, the direction they face to pray, who they love, or the fact that they are wearing blended fabrics...

All of the oaths and pledges do look odd from over here - any kid who sang the rude version of a hymn in assembly aged 10 will know that its easy to look like you agree with everybody else whilst meaning something very different.


The willingness of Americans to shout their rights to free speech, and the unwillingness to extend this to languages-spoken, also amuses.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Well then you likely never will understand it.

You seemed to be suggesting that making an oath is something that only someone who has sworn an oath will understand. I am quite capable of dedicating myself to an ideal or a cause (and in fact I am currently working in (and spent some time getting to a point where I could work in) a field where I get to dedicate myself to fulfilling a number of my ideals and causes); why would it make any difference to avow myself verbally to these ideals or causes?

Saying "you will never understand it" is a rather lame avoidance of the underlying query. Hopefully you do not deal with your students in the same way

Not saying the pledge isn't refuting 100% of what the country stands for. Especially as long as the 'Under God' addition is in there.

In school, I didn't say it. First off, it was because we had mandatory pledge announcements during the day. That just doesn't go along with Freedom.

Also, it never felt right reciting 'Under God' to me. I felt that didn't go well with the first amendment. You can't have no government endorsement of religion as long as that is in the pledge.

Also, the idea of the flag itself has been hijacked by extremist xenophobes to the point with it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I always see the attitudes expressed that there is one right way to be an American to be distinctly un-American. Pledging allegiance to a flag that (in my mind) represents something that is anti-American is not something I am comfortable with.

I don't really see the flag as representing America any more. I see it representing repression rather than freedom.

Granted, this last part is >my< issue that I allowed, in my mind, people to misappropriate the symbol. Same as when I was younger, I thought all Christians were like the Phelps clan.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dude, just look at job listings. You'll see tons of job listings where they say that applicants that speak Spanish are preferred. Particularly in service or customer service positions.

So I'm going to take that as a "no?"

Ok dude. Seriously, I shouldn't have to explain how Spanish is pretty much fething mandatory in certain areas or careers today.

This is elementary level stuff here. Or are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?

It may have to do with where you live. I've never seen something like that, but I live in mid-upper NY, so there are very few Mexicans.

 d-usa wrote:
As immigrants assimilate into our culture, our culture will also assimilate the traditions and values that they bring to our country.

I'm told by people who make coffee for a living that the correct term for that is "cultural appropriation."