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Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Everything gets splatted by big stuff these days, the IG just as much as everyone elses troops.
Do IG have Ob Sec?
I spose you could do something with, if a squads wiped out, leave 2? models bunkered down, either side gets within 4" they take a shot. Call it panicked response or something, like a land mine.

Just read the Mechanicum novel.and Guards seem to be way to powerful compared to knights or bigger engines.

the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.

Try playing an IG vs SM game. Lasguns are pointless.

If improving the IG meant having to improve everything else too, then the same should be true of all other codexes. The IG have now gone two editions with only a mild increase in firepower, and an overall reduction in durability and efficiency.

Meanwhile: IK, WK, Centurions, new-and-improved Ravenwing...

the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?

You mean like when tacticals got a ~33% price drop in 6th, and Guardsmen got... nothing.

Or when they got Chapter Tactics in 6th, and guardsmen got... nothing.

Or when they got Grav weapons in 6th, and guardsmen got... more useless Ogryns.

Or when they got Objective Secured (for all units in their detachment, not just troops), and Doctorines on top of their Chapter Tactics in 7th, and guardsmen... nope, still waiting.

Even if the bolter hasn't been directly buffed, it's fair to say that SMs have received more than their fair share of buffs.

Well, focusing on helping the lasgun, how about making like combat shotgun: just change it from rapid fire to assault.
I feel like I am stealing a page from the Orks however.

It will allow for a bit more run and gun for the troops with a bit more long distance punch.
Best I figure without unbalancing things too much.

Think, Selym, think...

Lasers... And more lasers...

What if we got some sort of combined fire for lasguns? Like, when you have less than ten rounds going into the opponent, nothing much really happens (you gone dun diddly), but for every ten shots fired at the target, the target gets an automatic wound or something (a whole lotta diddly).

 Selym wrote:
Think, Selym, think...

Lasers... And more lasers...

What if we got some sort of combined fire for lasguns? Like, when you have less than ten rounds going into the opponent, nothing much really happens (you gone dun diddly), but for every ten shots fired at the target, the target gets an automatic wound or something (a whole lotta diddly).

Would it be better if you could sacrifice quantity for quality? So, lose a lot of shots but gain better strength and/or /AP.

Honestly, all the Lasgun needs is an AP of 6.
S3 AP6... that small change will not only make sense fluff wise, but it will also make guardsmen more effective shooters than boyz...

Like seriously, do the Mathhammer and compare Shoota Boyz to Guardsmen. An ork is a more effective marksman than a trained human ffs BECAUSE the Lasgun has no penetration prowess at al -_-l. Merely upping it's armour penatration to 6 will mean that a guardsman can finally kill a boy in a firefight. Whoopi!

123ply wrote:
Honestly, all the Lasgun needs is an AP of 6.
S3 AP6... that small change will not only make sense fluff wise, but it will also make guardsmen more effective shooters than boyz...

Sorry, but what exactly is this fixing?

The whole problem with lasguns is that they're useless against most units in the game. This doesn't change that one iota.

Truthfully, the biggest thing I've always thought of for Lasgun fire is to make them Assault and increase their effectiveness based on range.
The closer you and the enemy are, the more devastating the Lasgun volleys would be.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Truthfully, the biggest thing I've always thought of for Lasgun fire is to make them Assault and increase their effectiveness based on range.
The closer you and the enemy are, the more devastating the Lasgun volleys would be.

So Rapid Fire then I think it'd be cool if they bumped to S4 if they're within 12" or something, or if the unit hits for than X times it gets shred or rending to represent the sheer volume of fire finding chinks in the armor of whatever they're shooting.

Oooh, or "Lasguns" become Strength/AP X--where X is the number of Guardsmen firing?

So, if 40 guardsmen fire, their lasguns are S40 AP40?

I could get behind that.

 vipoid wrote:
So, if 40 guardsmen fire, their lasguns are S40 AP40?

I could get behind that.

Wellll...it would necessitate removing "Blob Squads"(which I'm okay with, I really don't understand why they put that in for the first place).

8 S8 AP1 shots(going from -, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) coming from a squad actually is kind of scary coupled with whatever the Special Weapons and Sergeant are packing.

I think I did not consider this problem. But I am okay with this problem.

On a side thread I think the main problem with guard is survivability. They either need a point drop or perhaps a better save, what if they stayed the same point but went from 5+ to a 4+ and stormies went to a 3+?

It doesn't quite fit the fluff but it would be awesome, las guns would still be crap but it would do a lot to survivability.

Strength 4 at range 12 would do so much to make the lasgun viable. The wound roll is the primary problem. Shred could also be an alternative to that problem (if within 12 inches). The bolter should have shred within its special rules already.

We need the tools to engage in offensive actions. The tabletop gives no incentives to advance on the enemy for guard.

#1 ranged weaponry that gives no bonuses for close range
#2 weak in melee
#3 lack of mobility

With an increase in firepower at short range, and mobility, you could potentially make the guard more fun and dynamic.

Imagine having 2 outflanking squads of veterans with strength 4 lasguns at range 12. Couple that with a semi defensive line and an advancing enemy and you could potentially pull off a pincer maneuver.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
On a side thread I think the main problem with guard is survivability. They either need a point drop or perhaps a better save, what if they stayed the same point but went from 5+ to a 4+ and stormies went to a 3+?

It doesn't quite fit the fluff but it would be awesome, las guns would still be crap but it would do a lot to survivability.

I really don't think creeping up like their saves like that is a good thing. I like the idea of the individual Guardsman as fairly weak and squishy, and I'm saying this as a long time IG veteran. That would also cause some sort of scale creep, where now everyone else with carapace armor needs to be buffed up, and now power armor needs to be buffed up since carapace armor is a 3+.

I agree it would be a little odd, but having carapace at a 3+ seems less dramatic then upping the las gun.

I'm curious just to see what is coming. Either there will be sweeping changes. Or nothing will change and I have a feeling it will be nothing.

As much as I agree with the lasgun suck team, I think that the badness of IG is blinding people to how bad str 4 basic weapons are too. Which army right now uses bs4 str 4 ? non. The tac is a msu with a gravgun and razorback doing the killing. Bikers bolters are unimportants, important are the gravs. Eldar basic weapon is either pseudo rending or str 6 with 3 shots. tyranid basic weapon is an HQ etc.

Lasguns to work would either have to be bumped to something like str 5-6, with ap-. Or have some supper effects added to them for more people shoting the unit, or orders or anything. Right now they could be made ap 4 assault 2 and still would probably suck.

Makumba wrote:

Lasguns to work would either have to be bumped to something like str 5-6, with ap-.

That's a genuinely insane idea and makes no sense in the context of the setting, and would be overcompensating like crazy. S4 is solid for infantry weapons meant to take on other infantry. They don't need to all have scatterlasers to be effective.

S4 with an improved FRFSRF would be pretty dope. Add in some Inquisitor/Psykers for taste.


Give an order that makes platoons relentless. Also, there should be a buff that Vox casters allow orders to be relayed to other units with Vox casters no matter where they are. If they are out of LOS -1 Ld to the check.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

With an increase in firepower at short range, and mobility, you could potentially make the guard more fun and dynamic.

Increasing firepower at short range/mobility will not make the guard "more fun" or "dynamic". You just move from gunlining to running at the enemy/transport spam.
"Dynamic" would be if the army could react to threats in ways that, as of right now, no armies realistically can.

Time to bring the Empire "Detachment" rules to the Imperial Guard! Platoon Squads are the "Parent" units and the auxiliary/special units are the Detachments.
Boom. Dynamic!

Imagine having 2 outflanking squads of veterans with strength 4 lasguns at range 12. Couple that with a semi defensive line and an advancing enemy and you could potentially pull off a pincer maneuver.

Veterans need a lot of work. I think the ability for them to Booby Trap terrain/sections of the board is a good start.

 Brother SRM wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Lasguns to work would either have to be bumped to something like str 5-6, with ap-.

That's a genuinely insane idea and makes no sense in the context of the setting, and would be overcompensating like crazy. S4 is solid for infantry weapons meant to take on other infantry. They don't need to all have scatterlasers to be effective.

3 IG with lasguns would be one scater laser, but without the bikes tough buff, jink save, turbo boost ability, lower hit chance and lower speed in general. There are already armies with basic weapons being str 5 or even higher. So I don't see how it insane the IG would get. In fact if IG don't get insane stuff in their next codex, they will be at best as bad as they are right now.

S4 with an improved FRFSRF would be pretty dope. Add in some Inquisitor/Psykers for taste.

So they kill twice as many models with their boltguns as marine player with a tactical, for more points. And that is what , 3 or 4 meq dead per turn, from a squad with a lot less resilience and mobility, then a marine one.

Not to mention all of their Special/Heavy Weapons.

the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Everything gets splatted by big stuff these days, the IG just as much as everyone elses troops.
Do IG have Ob Sec?
I spose you could do something with, if a squads wiped out, leave 2? models bunkered down, either side gets within 4" they take a shot. Call it panicked response or something, like a land mine.

I am and I was very vocal about it.

Put it this way, the average Marine is under priced for what he does. To prove this I shall take average joe, a Guard grunt, and upgrade him to an SS (Special Snowflake):
So, Joe currently costs 5 points. He is equipped with a Lasgun, Flak Armour, Frag Grenades and a Knife. His stats are: 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7

First we give him Krak Grenades at +1 point

Then we exchange his Lasgun for a Bolter at +1 point

Then we upgrade his armour to Carapace for +1.5 points

Then we upgrade that Carapace too Power Armour for 8 points.

Now Joe is a regular bod with a Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades and Power Armour. He does not have ATSKNF and he does not have 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/9

He costs 16.5 points.
Marines cost 14 points per model.

So, do tell me again how Imperial Guardsmen and Women are fairly priced?

If you improve the Guard you do not have to improve everything else. Everything else has already been improved countless times over. Marines are meant to be few in number and yet I see entire companies being fielded in games, so why should the Guard remain pathetic "Because fluff says so"?
Everything gets splatted by the big stuff but only the Guard get splatted by the weenie stuff too, hell the only weapon that does not ignore our armour is the Lasgun. Which means our gun is gakkier than our already gak armour.
We do have Obsec. It is such a pity that we have no way whatsoever to move at any real speed. Over the editions we have had our mobility nerfed again and again. Chimeras? Cost waaayyyyy too much. Taurox? Even worse armour, no improvement on the firepower and they cost more. LRBT? Cannot move more than 6" unless it is in a command squadron and the commander wastes his order for the turn. And even then you might not get it off.

Don't two Lemman Russes cost almost as much as an eldar WK?

 master of ordinance wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Everything gets splatted by big stuff these days, the IG just as much as everyone elses troops.
Do IG have Ob Sec?
I spose you could do something with, if a squads wiped out, leave 2? models bunkered down, either side gets within 4" they take a shot. Call it panicked response or something, like a land mine.

I am and I was very vocal about it.

Put it this way, the average Marine is under priced for what he does. To prove this I shall take average joe, a Guard grunt, and upgrade him to an SS (Special Snowflake):
So, Joe currently costs 5 points. He is equipped with a Lasgun, Flak Armour, Frag Grenades and a Knife. His stats are: 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7

First we give him Krak Grenades at +1 point

Then we exchange his Lasgun for a Bolter at +1 point

Then we upgrade his armour to Carapace for +1.5 points

Then we upgrade that Carapace too Power Armour for 8 points.

Now Joe is a regular bod with a Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades and Power Armour. He does not have ATSKNF and he does not have 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/9

He costs 16.5 points.
Marines cost 14 points per model.

So, do tell me again how Imperial Guardsmen and Women are fairly priced?

If you improve the Guard you do not have to improve everything else. Everything else has already been improved countless times over. Marines are meant to be few in number and yet I see entire companies being fielded in games, so why should the Guard remain pathetic "Because fluff says so"?
Everything gets splatted by the big stuff but only the Guard get splatted by the weenie stuff too, hell the only weapon that does not ignore our armour is the Lasgun. Which means our gun is gakkier than our already gak armour.
We do have Obsec. It is such a pity that we have no way whatsoever to move at any real speed. Over the editions we have had our mobility nerfed again and again. Chimeras? Cost waaayyyyy too much. Taurox? Even worse armour, no improvement on the firepower and they cost more. LRBT? Cannot move more than 6" unless it is in a command squadron and the commander wastes his order for the turn. And even then you might not get it off.

No the Tac marine is fairly costed,

Its the guardsman that is overpriced. I have always stated that guardsman should be 4 ppm and come with grenades standard. But there are SO many other things wrong with IG's codex too

 Psienesis wrote:
... you do realize that the Guard is *meant* to be largely-faceless carbon copies of each other (a Cadian is a Cadian is a Cadian). Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

The Imperial Guard are Regular Human People who are facing off against Armies of Supermans, Armies of Demon-touched Supermans, Demons Themselves, Aliens that Eat Everything, Aliens that Fight Everything, Aliens Older than History Itself, Aliens who Foretell the Future (and are As Old as History Itself), Women with Better Armor, Better Guns and Better Training than You (and God is Literally On Their Side) and Some Blue-skinned Schmucks with Better Guns Than You.

By the description of the setting, unless the Guard is fighting what amounts to itself, they're supposed to be horribly out-classed in every way except in sheer number of bodies. It's kind of the theme of 40k.

Agreed. Soldier per soldier, the IG arguably come off best of all the factions in the game compared to their lore strength.

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Its the guardsman that is overpriced. I have always stated that guardsman should be 4 ppm and come with grenades standard. But there are SO many other things wrong with IG's codex too

The problem with that is that against most targets in the game these days, guardsmen just don't do anything.

I mean, in order to be functional against stuff like Wraiths and TWC, they'd need to be priced at like 1-2pts per model. And, that's still not solving the issue that there are many units in the game they have no way of hurting.

Basically, we're at the point where quantity alone isn't enough to make up for a lack of quality.


Also, on a personal note, I'd much rather have guardsmen stay at 5pts and get better than remain the same and get cheaper. I can field enough of the sods as it is.

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger