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Makumba wrote:

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger

Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.

If you want a more elite feeling force, that's what veterans are for. Or stormtroopers.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
... you do realize that the Guard is *meant* to be largely-faceless carbon copies of each other (a Cadian is a Cadian is a Cadian). Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

The Imperial Guard are Regular Human People who are facing off against Armies of Supermans, Armies of Demon-touched Supermans, Demons Themselves, Aliens that Eat Everything, Aliens that Fight Everything, Aliens Older than History Itself, Aliens who Foretell the Future (and are As Old as History Itself), Women with Better Armor, Better Guns and Better Training than You (and God is Literally On Their Side) and Some Blue-skinned Schmucks with Better Guns Than You.

By the description of the setting, unless the Guard is fighting what amounts to itself, they're supposed to be horribly out-classed in every way except in sheer number of bodies. It's kind of the theme of 40k.

Agreed. Soldier per soldier, the IG arguably come off best of all the factions in the game compared to their lore strength.

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds.

According to you, maybe.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger

Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.

However Cadians do make up an abnormal percentage of most Guard forces, for the simple fact that they get around everywhere and are in high demand.

Reaaaaaaaaaaaallly interested to see where those "2 months" and "2 weeks" numbers came from.
And if you really want to get technical, "training a Space Marine" takes far less than years as they're selected before they hit puberty and given what amounts to mental conditioning prior to their induction into the Scout Company.

Going from Scout Company onwards might take months or years, but if we're going with that yardstick then it takes X amount of time to train a Conscript, followed by Y amount of time in the Conscript Platoons for a Conscript to be elevated to Guardsman status.

Well, if I recall Guardsmen get 2 months of training once they are formally inducted into the Guard and sent to the nearest warzone. They could've had any number of months or even years of training before that. This 2 month training is more to accumulate the Guardsmen to his role within the Guard and to instruct him on what to do once he reaches his destination. This could be instructions on how to deal with the toxic environment, how to keep your Lasgun safe from electric storms and so on. For some Guardsman this could be the only training he gets but I think that's more the exception than the rule. Most Guardsmen see time in the PDF before heading out and Planetary Governors don't exactly want to sent their rookies out.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger

Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.

mordian iron guard, valhalans and the death korps are the same. All dudes from warrior worlds are in the wars buissness from an earliest age.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger

Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.

It holds true for pretty much all of the model lines GW makes however. Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, Vostroyans, Tanith, Mordians, Steel Legion, etc are all very well known for their fighting prowess and recruiting high quality soldiers.

The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reaaaaaaaaaaaallly interested to see where those "2 months" and "2 weeks" numbers came from.

I doubt it's literally 2 months or 2 weeks. May be more, may be less. It was just a rough number to illustrate the fact that pretty much every fight you as an IG player fight on the tabletop against an enemy who is not Tyranids or Orks is invariably going to be a crushing strategic victory for you, no matter what the victory points say, because that Tactical Marine costs 5 times as many points as your Guardsman but is 99,000,000 times as rare and much much much much much much much much much much much much costlier, more time-consuming and more difficult to replace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut

You will notice that one depiction is more common in the IG codex and books like Gaunt or Cain, and the other is more common everywhere else...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It holds true for pretty much all of the model lines GW makes however. Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, Vostroyans, Tanith, Mordians, Steel Legion, etc are all very well known for their fighting prowess and recruiting high quality soldiers.

Of course. People, according to GW anyway, are much less likely to collect the 12469th Genericusian Dragoons than they are to collect the glorious™ elite™ CADIAN SHOCK TROOPS™.

This is not really a surprise, but it doesn't mean that those paragon regiments are the most common ones who actually are out there in the game's lore.

Kind of like how you are significantly more likely to face the Grey Knights in combat on the tabletop than in the lore.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut

You will notice that one depiction is more common in the IG codex and books like Gaunt or Cain, and the other is more common everywhere else...

Same can be said for all factions

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut

They can be two things.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, if I recall Guardsmen get 2 months of training once they are formally inducted into the Guard and sent to the nearest warzone. They could've had any number of months or even years of training before that. This 2 month training is more to accumulate the Guardsmen to his role within the Guard and to instruct him on what to do once he reaches his destination. This could be instructions on how to deal with the toxic environment, how to keep your Lasgun safe from electric storms and so on. For some Guardsman this could be the only training he gets but I think that's more the exception than the rule. Most Guardsmen see time in the PDF before heading out and Planetary Governors don't exactly want to sent their rookies out.

If I remember correctly the guardsmen have to be of a certain quality when they join the Guard, otherwise bad things will happen to their governors. Also most of that 2 month training is A) Fitting the troops into the gaurd system of doing things and B) Preparing troops who may of never set foot off their planet for the horrors of the 40k universe.

Also I personally think it's a massive misconception that PDF troops suck, especially on worlds that are constant war zones. On krieg for example, wouldn't most of the forces technically of been PDF forces before the civil war ended?

Well, that's because the only places of interest to the 40k tabletop are places where the PDF has failed to defend their world thus necessitating greater Imperial intervention. It would be boring to read "Orks attempted invasion of Betralis Gamma. Betralis PDF successfully fends them off with minimal losses. Glory to the Emperor!" over and over.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, that's because the only places of interest to the 40k tabletop are places where the PDF has failed to defend their world thus necessitating greater Imperial intervention. It would be boring to read "Orks attempted invasion of Betralis Gamma. Betralis PDF successfully fends them off with minimal losses. Glory to the Emperor!" over and over.

Tbh most of what you hear in the fluff is when a planets own forces is not simply enough. I personally think a PDF type list or formation could be a great alternative to the traditional IG force.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, that's because the only places of interest to the 40k tabletop are places where the PDF has failed to defend their world thus necessitating greater Imperial intervention. It would be boring to read "Orks attempted invasion of Betralis Gamma. Betralis PDF successfully fends them off with minimal losses. Glory to the Emperor!" over and over.

Tbh most of what you hear in the fluff is when a planets own forces is not simply enough. I personally think a PDF type list or formation could be a great alternative to the traditional IG force.

There's no functional difference between a PDF and the IG on the table-top. The only thing you wouldn't see is something like Stormtroopers (being an elite unit deployed by the Imperium, rather than locals) and, perhaps, some of the super-rare stuff (though maybe, with good justification) but, otherwise? It's dudes/dudettes with guns, maybe also with tanks and artillery.

Makumba wrote:
Don't two Lemman Russes cost almost as much as an eldar WK?

They cost more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm noticing a theme in this thread...

It's largely "Everyone who thinks the IG are fine as-is" vs "Everyone who's played guard in the last year"

 Selym wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Don't two Lemman Russes cost almost as much as an eldar WK?

They cost more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm noticing a theme in this thread...

It's largely "Everyone who thinks the IG are fine as-is" vs "Everyone who's played guard in the last year"

Not true, I've played Guard Twice in the last month. Won the first and drew the second (Versus Space Marines).
Mostly I feel that the Guard is okay, you shouldn't be relying on your infantry with lasguns to do much anyway... it's about the Special/ Heavy weapons and then your support/ heavy elements.

If I'd have to have a buff, it wouldn't be the lasguns (they should remain gak because that's what they are in the fluff).
I believe that a fluffier buff would be the ability to take medi-packs in all squads... Hell even the Orks get better medical care atm by sticking Painboys in squads of Boyz!

At most lasguns should be Assault: 2. Lasguns are light (the puns the puns), have a good ROF in the fluff and this way the Guard could put volume of fire out to max range, rather than just a panicked spray the turn before they're crushed in close combat.

A lot of the suggestions in here are getting absurd. S4? AP5? No, we don't use bolters.

PS they should make SM/CSM bolters Assault: 2 as well.

 Otto Weston wrote:

I believe that a fluffier buff would be the ability to take medi-packs in all squads... Hell even the Orks get better medical care atm by sticking Painboys in squads of Boyz!

Have all the exalts! This has bugged me since I picked up my codex.

If you aren't changing the guardsmen at all, you're getting a troops choice that costs 1/3rd as much as a full tactical squad, and is about 1/12th as effective. Adding med packs would make them more expensive for not a whole lot more.

 Otto Weston wrote:

Mostly I feel that the Guard is okay, you shouldn't be relying on your infantry with lasguns to do much anyway... it's about the Special/ Heavy weapons and then your support/ heavy elements.

Yeah, because 9 useless weapons for every 1 useful one at BS3 is a really amazing ratio. I love having to take 18 worthless guys to average 1 hit with a weapon that isn't crap.

Also, even are special weapons are just outclassed by what's in the game these days. We're stuck with plasma that kills us while SMs are touting Wraithknight-eating Grav Cannons. And it's not even limited to infantry - virtually every Leman Russ is firing outdated weapons (save for the one that kills itself), but no one seems to have mentioned this to the guy costing them.

As I said earlier, we're at the stage in the game where quantity simply isn't making up for a lack of quality. Especially when the quantity is barely more than other armies get with their units, with improved durability and firepower.

The problem is that the Guard are all about the Lasguns. They are our basic weapon, the one thing that we have masses of. Heavy weapons? We have one to every section. So a 1/10 ratio of effective weapons to useless chaff compared to the Marines (and just about every other armies) 1/1 ratio of effective weapons to effective weapons. We can take specialists whom just happen to pay as much as a Marine for there weapons despite being only fractionally as good with them and even less so at surviving long enough to use them (armour? What armour?) and even then unless we take them in Veteran sections we can only have a ratio of 3/10. And sure we can take Specialist and Heavy weapons sections but there is a reason as to why you never see these in use because they cost far more than they are worth (45 points plus weapons for a HWS) and can not take transports (have fun trying to use those specialist weapons) so we are once again left with the fact that we have only a fraction of our bods carrying heavy or specialist weapons and the other 90% of our army carrying Lasguns.

So yes, Lasguns ARE what the Imperial Guard are all about. Lasguns are not just some backup or minority weapon, they are the gun to which almost all of our soldiers are equipped with. They are the weapon with which we fight and die. Why should they be so utterly useless when every other army has better basic weapons and can deploy these on a points based ratio to a far higher number than we can?

The Guardsman does not need to be cheaper, we already have too many of them. They need to be better. The Lasgun needs to get better.

We can retain the theme of guardsman = expendable and lasgun = flashlight by having massed fire rules.

If you've got one or two of something, it should be useless, but en masse, there needs to be more.

Now, I know we all hate rules bloat, but we're gonna need it:

-Heavy Weapons Teams all gain Pinning when they fire, and the target unit has a -2 Ld penalty for the pinning roll

-For every 10 lasgun shots fired at the enemy, the enemy takes 1 auto-wound (there's just so much heat coming off it, it would happen)

-Lasguns become Assault 2 (it's exactly like firing a laser pointer irl, but better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Human Ingenuity:
Humans are extremely hard to remove once entrenched.
All IG infantry models have a permanent +1 to their cover save. This means that they all have a minimum of a 6+ cover save at all times. This cannot be used to improve a save past a 2+.

 Selym wrote:
We can retain the theme of guardsman = expendable and lasgun = flashlight by having massed fire rules.

If you've got one or two of something, it should be useless, but en masse, there needs to be more.

Now, I know we all hate rules bloat, but we're gonna need it:

-Heavy Weapons Teams all gain Pinning when they fire, and the target unit has a -2 Ld penalty for the pinning roll

-For every 10 lasgun shots fired at the enemy, the enemy takes 1 auto-wound (there's just so much heat coming off it, it would happen)

-Lasguns become Assault 2 (it's exactly like firing a laser pointer irl, but better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Human Ingenuity:
Humans are extremely hard to remove once entrenched.
All IG infantry models have a permanent +1 to their cover save. This means that they all have a minimum of a 6+ cover save at all times. This cannot be used to improve a save past a 2+.

I would accept this

There are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of planets in the Imperium that are producing men for the Guard. Even if Cadians and Catachans are present in wars in numbers incommensurate with their planets' populations, they are a microscopic fraction of the total. A fraction of a tenth of a percent.

All the named Guard units in fluff put together are a tiny, tiny fraction of the total.

Alcibiades wrote:
There are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of planets in the Imperium that are producing men for the Guard. Even if Cadians and Catachans are present in wars in numbers incommensurate with their planets' populations, they are a microscopic fraction of the total. A fraction of a tenth of a percent.

All the named Guard units in fluff put together are a tiny, tiny fraction of the total.

And this means we should have a terrible army because....?

 Selym wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
There are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of planets in the Imperium that are producing men for the Guard. Even if Cadians and Catachans are present in wars in numbers incommensurate with their planets' populations, they are a microscopic fraction of the total. A fraction of a tenth of a percent.

All the named Guard units in fluff put together are a tiny, tiny fraction of the total.

And this means we should have a terrible army because....?

Because he is a Space Marine player and he said so.

Perhaps we're looking at this wrong. Maybe, instead of trying to fix the IG codex, we should just use the SM one instead.

I mean, think about it - the current SM book does just about everything you'd expect IG to do:

- SMs are cheap enough to spam if you want to go infantry heavy.
- If you want to go mech heavy, then there are formations to help, and they even have vehicle squadrons.
- Vindicators and Predators are good Leman Russ stand-ins
- For artillery you have TFCs and Whirlwinds
- Dreadnoughts for Sentinels
- Centurions for Ogryns
- Biker Squads for Rough Riders
- An HQ who can call down an air-strike
- Rhinos and Razorbacks to stand in for Chimeras and Tauroxes
- Finally, their primary formation is all about taking and holding ground (Objective Secured), arguably the main objective of Guard.

There - I've solved the Imperial Guard.

 Selym wrote:
We can retain the theme of guardsman = expendable and lasgun = flashlight by having massed fire rules.

If you've got one or two of something, it should be useless, but en masse, there needs to be more.

Now, I know we all hate rules bloat, but we're gonna need it:

-Heavy Weapons Teams all gain Pinning when they fire, and the target unit has a -2 Ld penalty for the pinning roll

-For every 10 lasgun shots fired at the enemy, the enemy takes 1 auto-wound (there's just so much heat coming off it, it would happen)

-Lasguns become Assault 2 (it's exactly like firing a laser pointer irl, but better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Human Ingenuity:
Humans are extremely hard to remove once entrenched.
All IG infantry models have a permanent +1 to their cover save. This means that they all have a minimum of a 6+ cover save at all times. This cannot be used to improve a save past a 2+.

This is pretty a good start.

 vipoid wrote:
Perhaps we're looking at this wrong. Maybe, instead of trying to fix the IG codex, we should just use the SM one instead.

I mean, think about it - the current SM book does just about everything you'd expect IG to do:

- SMs are cheap enough to spam if you want to go infantry heavy.
- If you want to go mech heavy, then there are formations to help, and they even have vehicle squadrons.
- Vindicators and Predators are good Leman Russ stand-ins
- For artillery you have TFCs and Whirlwinds
- Dreadnoughts for Sentinels
- Centurions for Ogryns
- Biker Squads for Rough Riders
- An HQ who can call down an air-strike
- Rhinos and Razorbacks to stand in for Chimeras and Tauroxes
- Finally, their primary formation is all about taking and holding ground (Objective Secured), arguably the main objective of Guard.

There - I've solved the Imperial Guard.

It is sad that the Marines do better at Guard things than the Guard do themselves

Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.

The REAL problem is that the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery all suck. Yeah, they're better than the other armies, but not by enough.