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This is a nutty fringe cult that is small, but not healthy.

Also, it has been scientifically proven that the Christians doing "Conversion Therapy on their gay kids are actually causing harm to those kids.

This is a reason or so why it is not a good idea some of our fellow 'Murikans have to make religion and leadership integrated. Theocracy would see more such injustices inflicted upon those who doe not believe as the Theocratic leaders do.

Keep Church and State as separate institutions as the Founding Fathers wanted us to.

Well, we did so officially back in 1905 and now people overtly exposing their religious affiliation are rare. I don't know if it could work in the US tho, mentalities are kinda different.

We have separation of church and state ingrained in our laws with the constitution, although lots of politicians like to conveniently forget that.

Always thought Christianity was kind of a state religion in the US. At least unofficially.

Eh, not really. We are majority Christian (62% to be exact), but not even all the same sect. You see most religious push form Christens though, and most of the "totally not religious" laws (blue laws, anti-gay marriage,ect.) are based in Christianity. It did use to be like that, but we also used to have a much higher Christian population. That's why we have stuff like "In god we ttust on out money" or "under god" in our pledge, but that was also to protect from godless commies, dontchano. If anything, our problem is political pandering. The religious conservatives have been a pretty solid base for the R's, and really helped them for many years. Although they are slowly losing power in the inevitable liberalization of society. What is interesting is that "no religion" is the fastest growing religion in america (IIRC).

As it is in France (up to 40% according to some polls)
Hell, myself and most of my friends are atheists/agnostics. And if some of them aren't, they are not saying it.

There are crazy religious beliefs everywhere. In the UK we've had supposed Christians in African migrant communities conduct witchcraft trials and have accused children of being possessed, and then tortured them to death. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there must be countries in the world where it happens regularly.

It doesn't surprise me that some weird sect would beat someone to death in some sort of trial or attempt at corrective treatment. Cult like attitudes lead to total obedience and control taking more importance than empathy and morality, the smaller and more bizarre the cult, the less free thought can be tolerated.

Gay aversion therapy to 'cure' homosexuality is practiced in some places despite the fact there's no medical basis or ethical justification for it beyond pure prejudice. It actually leads to mental distress for the victim who is probably being coerced by friends and family. Elsewhere are are purity cults with parents that demand total abstinence from their children until marriage with consequences for failure between total estrangement to physical assaults.

When you have a child they should be the main priority in your life, to protect them and look after them. People who torture and beat their children for any reason are failures as parents. Any religious group that encourages you to behave this way towards your children is evil, but the way of cults is that members just can't see it.

yellowfever wrote:
This time it's Christians. Next month catholics.

I don't know how to break this to you, but Catholicism is the biggest Christian denomination in the world.

Sigh, yet another reason religion needs to be gotten rid of.

I genuinely believe religious people are slightly mad.

 Formosa wrote:
Sigh, yet another reason religion needs to be gotten rid of.

I genuinely believe religious people are slightly mad.

This is why people addressed bad things others do because of non religious reasons in this thread. To show that human nature can pervert anything to bad ends. As I said earlier, there are ample examples of horrible things being done for non religious reasons. Porn should be eliminated entirely because of all of the sexual slavery it causes and people who use it are accomplices to, for example. Yet many people who damn religion because of what some make of it will take offense to that comment and say a whole industry can't be condemned because of a few kiddie porn movies.

 Formosa wrote:
Sigh, yet another reason religion needs to be gotten rid of.

I genuinely believe religious people are slightly mad.

This is what you've been eagerly awaiting tactical spam. Have at him!


We're all mad here, Formosa. Most will never kill someone for their religion. Followers of those religions that demand non believers be slain are incredibly dangerous. Otherwise they're mostly harmless.

I see radical atheism here. It looks identical to the bad parts of radical forms of other religions frankly. If you don't [not] believe, you are evil, crazy, dangerous etc. Same story except you get to male up your morality which you feel compelled to force on others whom you denigrate based on the non-nonbelievers beliefs.

Religion isn't mad, it's just a highly emotional format that can easily bring out the crazy that's already there in some people.

Herd mentality is our greatest strength and our scariest weakness as a species, as it can make us horrible fething monsters, or make usfearful and complacent about others who are so we don't rock the boat and become the focus of that same crazy.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If you don't [not] believe, you are evil, crazy, dangerous etc.

To be entirely fair however, I'm sure you would also say anyone who believes in a unicorn who lives under their bed and eats their socks was pretty crazy. You know, given that they apparently believe this with no proof supporting their belief, and plenty to say that they are wrong...

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If you don't [not] believe, you are evil, crazy, dangerous etc.

To be entirely fair however, I'm sure you would also say anyone who believes in a unicorn who lives under their bed and eats their socks was pretty crazy. You know, given that they apparently believe this with no proof supporting their belief, and plenty to say that they are wrong...

There are more than a few people who will tell you there is plenty to back up their religious beliefs. You just don't accept what they put forward to support it, nor should you without testing what they are offering. I have found for myself, a belief that I have tested and it makes sense to me on many levels.

Relapse wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If you don't [not] believe, you are evil, crazy, dangerous etc.

To be entirely fair however, I'm sure you would also say anyone who believes in a unicorn who lives under their bed and eats their socks was pretty crazy. You know, given that they apparently believe this with no proof supporting their belief, and plenty to say that they are wrong...

There are more than a few people who will tell you there is plenty to back up their religious beliefs. You just don't accept what they put forward to support it, nor should you without testing what they are offering. I have found for myself, a belief that I have tested and it makes sense to me on many levels.

And yet what differentiates your belief from that in the sock eating unicorn? For each individual belief is clearly based on something. Unfortunately in both cases that something is not reality.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If you don't [not] believe, you are evil, crazy, dangerous etc.

To be entirely fair however, I'm sure you would also say anyone who believes in a unicorn who lives under their bed and eats their socks was pretty crazy. You know, given that they apparently believe this with no proof supporting their belief, and plenty to say that they are wrong...

There are more than a few people who will tell you there is plenty to back up their religious beliefs. You just don't accept what they put forward to support it, nor should you without testing what they are offering. I have found for myself, a belief that I have tested and it makes sense to me on many levels.

And yet what differentiates your belief from that in the sock eating unicorn? For each individual belief is clearly based on something. Unfortunately in both cases that something is not reality.

Quite a bit, actually, since I am a believer in modern Prophets, personal revalation, by your fruits ye shall know them, and all of that. I have had some deeply personal experiences that have shaped what I believe which could have happened in no other way than by divine means.

Stay on topic, gentlemen. At best, this thread is about the potential for violence in certain radical sects of religion. Regardless of our personal beliefs, we can discuss this aspect of religious zealotry.

Well. Hallucinations ? Brain disease ? Truly divine experience ?
Who knows ?

Our brains are able to induce really vivid sensations, which will then be interpreted accordingly to our beliefs.
I'm not saying you hallucinated or anything, just expressing my own point of view.

Gitzbitah: True.

 LethalShade wrote:
Well. Hallucinations ? Brain disease ? Truly divine experience ?
Who knows ?

Our brains are able to induce really vivid sensations, which will then be interpreted accordingly to our beliefs.
I'm not saying you hallucinated or anything, just expressing my own point of view.

Gitzbitah: True.

I understand what you're saying, but at the same time smile at the fact you lay out a few lines saying why you think I believe what I do, then finish it off by agreeing we should confine ourselves to violence in religion.

At the core, it was what these people believed that led them to their violent actions.

Relapse wrote:
Quite a bit, actually, since I am a believer in modern Prophets, personal revalation, by your fruits ye shall know them, and all of that. I have had some deeply personal experiences that have shaped what I believe which could have happened in no other way than by divine means.

And the Unicornian witnessed the great Sundering of the Sports Socks, a deeply spiritual and moving event as the great Unicorn savoured the soft cotton and fabric softener.

There is still great debate to this day between the true believers who say the Great Unicorn ate the right sock (hence justifying the doctrinal hatred of left footed people), and the heretics who say that the Great Unicorn ate the left sock, granting those people his favour.

You may well have had some deeply personal experiences which "must have been from god" but I hate to break it to you... so have a lot of fricking crazy people. Personal perception of reality does not trump actual reality.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Quite a bit, actually, since I am a believer in modern Prophets, personal revalation, by your fruits ye shall know them, and all of that. I have had some deeply personal experiences that have shaped what I believe which could have happened in no other way than by divine means.

And the Unicornian witnessed the great Sundering of the Sports Socks, a deeply spiritual and moving event as the great Unicorn savoured the soft cotton and fabric softener.

There is still great debate to this day between the true believers who say the Great Unicorn ate the right sock (hence justifying the doctrinal hatred of left footed people), and the heretics who say that the Great Unicorn ate the left sock, granting those people his favour.

You may well have had some deeply personal experiences which "must have been from god" but I hate to break it to you... so have a lot of fricking crazy people. Personal perception of reality does not trump actual reality.

Your belief, and I won't argue with you on it, because neither of us is going to convince the other of anything.

Relapse wrote:
Your belief

Erm... no. It doesn't matter what you, I or anyone believes. You can't change reality.

and I won't argue with you on it, because neither of us is going to convince the other of anything.

Very true, given previous discussions. Suffice to say that I hope were you to encounter something akin to the situation in the OP in your own religious group you would do the right thing. As I hope I would in whatever capacity I spotted abuse.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Jeez..... This is like the worst stuff out of a Scientology horror story.

....Church of Scientology.

While Scientologgists are not to blame for this incident, lets be clear. I just wanted to highlight a point. Scientology calls itself a 'church', nominally a Christian term.
A number of other groups call themselves 'churches' or 'Christian'. The lines get very blurred.
For examples 'The First Church of Christ Scientist' also known as Christian Scientists, the 'Unification Church of the Unitesd States' aka the moonies.
To muddy the waters further there are real churches which have gone off the deep end, Westboro Baptists for example.
All in all when I hear of a whacky 'church' doing despicable things, it is hard to garner where they come from. Are they a real chruch teaching twisted doctrines like the WBC, or an unrelated group claiming to be christian or a church, but have no connexion beyond the name. It doesnt matter in the end, but the 'Word of Life Christian Church' linked to the alleged incident could be anything, and I thought I should share that one for starters.


It appears Word of Life Christian Church is a nominally Christian group that has gone off the deep end. So I wonder what scriptures they would use to justify beating to death someone who tries to leave. The Bible to my knowledge doesnt have any apostasy killing laws. Some religions do, Islam does for example, so an extremist Moslem could order this sort of atrocity and say "it is written". This results in what are called 'honour killings.' For the record most Moselms disagree with them as most Christians would disagree with the WBC but the logical path is there and clear. A Christian or Jewish apostate is normally expected to be shunned not murdered if you read the Bible or Torah about it harshly.

Normally if you see what a religious extremist does there is a link to a misquoted or harshly applied scripture somewhere. I can pick up a Bible and find plenty of passages which will explain why Westboro Baptists wave homophobic placards. I dont agree with their interpretation but I can find where they got it.

There is no Scripture to twist to back this killing. That could be explained away if this was a church in name only. however it's an actual church gone bad. Westboro Baptists for all their excesses have some form of standards, they protest in certain ways on certain issues, and leave other things alone, and to some limited degree can be expected to behave. I dont see Westboro Baptists being involved in murders anytime soon, it would go against their ethos. If some extremist churches in the US are disregarding the existance or 'the rails' rather than merely going off them, then they are capable of frankly anything.
This is why I find this group worrisome.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Your belief

Erm... no. It doesn't matter what you, I or anyone believes. You can't change reality.

and I won't argue with you on it, because neither of us is going to convince the other of anything.

Very true, given previous discussions. Suffice to say that I hope were you to encounter something akin to the situation in the OP in your own religious group you would do the right thing. As I hope I would in whatever capacity I spotted abuse.

I don't think anyone here on these forums would condone such activity, and I'm pretty confident any with the physical capacity would interpose themselves to prevent it.

Relapse wrote:
Porn should be eliminated entirely because of all of the sexual slavery it causes and people who use it are accomplices to, for example. Yet many people who damn religion because of what some make of it will take offense to that comment and say a whole industry can't be condemned because of a few kiddie porn movies.

I don't think this is a really appropriate comparison. Porn has its problems, but they're the same kind of problems that other industries have (like the slaves-in-all-but-name making your new ipad). It doesn't have the certainty that religion has when it is doing the wrong thing. The idea that god has commanded something and god must not be questioned is an incredibly dangerous concept that is shared by very few things outside of religion. And it gives us a situation where even religions that don't do evil things have disturbing potential to do those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
There is no Scripture to twist to back this killing.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I suppose you could nitpick the fact that the church in the OP used the wrong method of execution, but they're certainly following scripture on the idea of killing a rebellious son who wants to disobey his parents by leaving their church.

I've never read the Bible. That's kinda creepy.

 LethalShade wrote:
I've never read the Bible. That's kinda creepy.

The above is just one example of many curiosities in the Bible. Most of the more bizarre laws are to be found in the Book of Leviticus and the Book of Deuteronomy. if you're able to divest yourself from the notion that these are divine books, they are actually really interesting "case studies" in ancient legal codes. perhaps even on par with the Code of Hammurabi in its bizarrities. And they are good entertainment , because they are so strange and foreign to modern sensibilities.

Christians themselves might be surprised to note that God as depicted in the Book of Numbers commanded priests to perform forced abortions in certain situations: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers%205:11-31&version=NIV

On topic, it's true that most forms of modern Christianity consider the Old Testament to be a collection tion of pseudo -historic legends regarding the ancient Israelites. It's where people find these stories to be literally true that people can run into problems, because these codes contain many death sentences, or otherwise harsh sentences, for any number of things that occur on a regular basis in modern society (such as disobeying parents, as Peregrine noted above).

In the sense of changing with the times, I would go with something more substantial than "kinda" creepy, myself.

Utterly, or wholly, or unforgivably, sound right to me.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
There is no Scripture to twist to back this killing.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I suppose you could nitpick the fact that the church in the OP used the wrong method of execution, but they're certainly following scripture on the idea of killing a rebellious son who wants to disobey his parents by leaving their church.

That looks like stubbornness, drunkeness and gluttony, with repeat offense.
Not apostasy.