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 Orlanth wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
There is no Scripture to twist to back this killing.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I suppose you could nitpick the fact that the church in the OP used the wrong method of execution, but they're certainly following scripture on the idea of killing a rebellious son who wants to disobey his parents by leaving their church.

That looks like stubbornness, drunkeness and gluttony, with repeat offense.
Not apostasy.

You yourself said that people are inclined to twist scriptures. This scripture can certainly be twisted to form a basis for murdering a child because they want to leave their church (stubborness, rebeliousness, and disobedience are the charateristics that kick off this legal procedure).

 jasper76 wrote:


You yourself said that people are inclined to twist scriptures. This scripture can certainly be twisted to form a basis for murdering a child because they want to leave their church (stubborness, rebeliousness, and disobedience are the charateristics that kick off this legal procedure).

I would hesitate to say 'people' that makes this too commonplace. People who distort religion for violent and controlling ends are a minority, if a media attractive minority.
You could twist anything into anything if you wanted to make the excuse, and sick individuals do this throughout recorded history, especiallywith regards to those who would murder to back up their doctrines.

I was looking at whether there was any specific apostasy death law in Judeo-Christianity, and there isn't.

History and current events are jam packed with people twisting whatever they think will give them power to get people to do what they want. That has often been religion.

Hell my family still does that. And in the case of several of my cousins who decided they wanted to have sex with married women, they just sorta push the bible to the side till there done. Then have the audacity to preach the next day about being a good Christian.

 Orlanth wrote:
That looks like stubbornness, drunkeness and gluttony, with repeat offense.
Not apostasy.

And that's just nitpicking.

Son: I'm leaving the church.
Dad: no you're not.
Son: I'm leaving.
Dad: *kills son*

Completely biblical.


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 Orlanth wrote:
People who distort religion for violent and controlling ends are a minority, if a media attractive minority.

Alternatively, we could argue that (thankfully) people who distort Christianity for peaceful ends are a majority. The bible has some horrifyingly evil things in it, and the only reason we don't see more cases like the OP is the fact that most people have enough of a conscience to find ways to creatively reinterpret their religion and ignore the worst parts.

 Orlanth wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


You yourself said that people are inclined to twist scriptures. This scripture can certainly be twisted to form a basis for murdering a child because they want to leave their church (stubborness, rebeliousness, and disobedience are the charateristics that kick off this legal procedure).

I would hesitate to say 'people' that makes this too commonplace. People who distort religion for violent and controlling ends are a minority, if a media attractive minority.
You could twist anything into anything if you wanted to make the excuse, and sick individuals do this throughout recorded history, especiallywith regards to those who would murder to back up their doctrines.

I was looking at whether there was any specific apostasy death law in Judeo-Christianity, and there isn't.

To be fair, there are no laws against abortion in the Bible (and in fact, there are laws in which ancient priests were required to force abortions on adulteresses in a sort of Monty Python witch test), but some people put bits and pieces of the Bible together, and come up with the "will of God", and now there is a deep-seated "law" in the heart of just about everyone in the Pro-Life movement against abortion.

I agree, I don't think Pergerine's example was an explicit law against apostasy, but rather child apostasy could easily be interpreted as falling under that scripture. Child obedience is a big huge thing in the Bible, and its not hard to imagine that a parent might feel Biblical justification for harsh actions against their children, if they take these writings seriously.

Here I am just talking in general terms. Regarding the OP, I'd rather hear more facts about the case as they unfold via the justice system. I'm not too inclined to take police reports and conclusions as 100% truth. These are still allegations. And regarding religion, there are other motives people might have to kill their children, and while this murder certainly seems religiously motivated, I'd rather not assume too much.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
History and current events are jam packed with people twisting whatever they think will give them power to get people to do what they want. That has often been religion.

No argument there since there are too many sad examples to prove your case.


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 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Porn should be eliminated entirely because of all of the sexual slavery it causes and people who use it are accomplices to, for example. Yet many people who damn religion because of what some make of it will take offense to that comment and say a whole industry can't be condemned because of a few kiddie porn movies.

I don't think this is a really appropriate comparison. Porn has its problems, but they're the same kind of problems that other industries have (like the slaves-in-all-but-name making your new ipad). It doesn't have the certainty that religion has when it is doing the wrong thing. The idea that god has commanded something and god must not be questioned is an incredibly dangerous concept that is shared by very few things outside of religion. And it gives us a situation where even religions that don't do evil things have disturbing potential to do those things.

I'll have to disagree with you on that as far as the mistreatment and enslavement of people go. There are enough stories out there of women and children being forced into a life of pornography and being murdered if they try to leave to make it quite an apt comparison.

Shocking how anyone could do this, off course those miscreant who dare to turn away from the shining light of the Emperor must all be purged with "FIRE"

On a serious note this maybe rare in america, but in certain counties this is normal practice, if you go against the wishes of the family.

Cure for all this madness? Exterminatus! Not likely to be enacted, but there are enough nukes to do it..

Or the giant mutant star goat comes and eats the silly place

All i know is i was talking once to an ex-pastor (or something, i forget his title) and he was telling me about how he was asked to heal some kid's leg (one was shorter than the other) and he prayed really hard and the other leg spontaneously grew to the right length. The look on his face when he was telling that story was what i would describe as "don't spend time near him"-crazy. Once you've seen that look, the idea of someone getting beaten to death for wanting to leave a church is no longer much of a shock or surprise.

edit: I just want to re-iterate 'the face' look, the closest i can come is this pic, and even that doesn't do it justice.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
That looks like stubbornness, drunkeness and gluttony, with repeat offense.
Not apostasy.

And that's just nitpicking.

Son: I'm leaving the church.
Dad: no you're not.
Son: I'm leaving.
Dad: *kills son*

Completely biblical.

Actually, it's not. There are no apostasy death laws.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
People who distort religion for violent and controlling ends are a minority, if a media attractive minority.

Alternatively, we could argue that (thankfully) people who distort Christianity for peaceful ends are a majority. The bible has some horrifyingly evil things in it, and the only reason we don't see more cases like the OP is the fact that most people have enough of a conscience to find ways to creatively reinterpret their religion and ignore the worst parts.

The Bible has a lot of stuff in it. Mostly peaceful, those passages that are not have a larger context. You are interpreting as 'evil' through a 21st century milieu things which were normal four millenia ago. To add to that ALL the harsh judgement scriptures expired two millenia ago and are regarded before then as prophetic type. Even looking at the old testament alone the harsh judgements are overlayed with mercy. God demands death for a large number of crimes in the Leviticus and Deuteronomy, yet the entirity of the Bible is related to repentance. Take the book of Jonah for example, it is about God's wrath on Ninevah. Presumably the people of the city were doing things which in your eyes made God 'horrifyingly evil' to judge, yet God was willing to overlook all that. Thus by their repentence their actions did not result in judgement even though the law pronounces death.

You muisunderstand the whole point of 'must be put to death'. ALL judgement is under the subject of mercy, mercy comes from repentance. There isn't a single judgement in the Bible that cant be overcome by remittance. In this Biblical law is rather lenient.

The way to look at this is thus. The pasage reads
<Offense> <sentence>

The unstated overtone is that in all cases

<Offense> highlight of law, failure to repent or desist <sentence>

I can say this because that is how the law was applied in Scripture by God. Many many passages read of God waiting a long time before handing down a punishment, or allowing a people to come to repentance. This would not make sense if judgement was immediate action.

Looked at this way all the judgements are far more lenient than they read out, and again most are prophetic type anyway. The Bible is a spiritual book and is intended to be read with an understanding heart and a peaceful mind, as interpreted by the Holy Spirit. Doing so is not the peaceful misinterpretation you suggest, the opposite is the misinterpretation, even if it follows the text more plainly. Biblical literalism is criticised heavily, in the Bible itself. For example the Biblical literalists repeatedly expected Jesus to make war on the Romans in order to become the Son of David and conquering Lion of Judah. However conquering is not taken literally, even though in David's case it was.
Sometimes even the plain text is garbled unless you read it from God's perspective, then it becomes truly plain. The Bible is not a mundane book, and those who read it as a mundane text miss this point.


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 Torga_DW wrote:
All i know is i was talking once to an ex-pastor (or something, i forget his title) and he was telling me about how he was asked to heal some kid's leg (one was shorter than the other) and he prayed really hard and the other leg spontaneously grew to the right length. The look on his face when he was telling that story was what i would describe as "don't spend time near him"-crazy. Once you've seen that look, the idea of someone getting beaten to death for wanting to leave a church is no longer much of a shock or surprise.

Dangerous crazy look on face + tales of miracles attributed to the speaker himself + no sign of humilty = BS sense tingling
Those with the greater Charismata are always milder, humble people, who are not out to make themselves look holier or score points.

But the ex-member denied reports the church is a cult.

"I realize this situation makes it look like this," she said, "but if you listen to the teachings, they are accurate to the Bible."

Someone could be a good 'Christian' and still be a horrid person.
Picking bits of the Bible and ignoring the law, people can justify all sorts of things.
As long as acting religiously is made to fit the law, that should be fine. Using religion over the law, you end up with situations like in the OP.

Sad and stupid.

 LethalShade wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
Religion setting the example again. This time it's Christians. Next month catholics. Muslims pretty much all the time. I was lucky my family showed me how corrupt all religion is at an early age.

I still feel sorry for the family. Unless of course they were in on it.

If it wasn't for religion, we would murder each other for other motives. Politics, economy and so on. Religion isn't the only corrupt thing about humanity.

"As a species we are fundamentally insane. Get three of us in a room and we start thinking of reasons to kill each other."
-the Mist.

 Skinnereal wrote:

But the ex-member denied reports the church is a cult.

"I realize this situation makes it look like this," she said, "but if you listen to the teachings, they are accurate to the Bible."

Someone could be a good 'Christian' and still be a horrid person.
Picking bits of the Bible and ignoring the law, people can justify all sorts of things.
As long as acting religiously is made to fit the law, that should be fine. Using religion over the law, you end up with situations like in the OP.

Those in cults seldom think they are.

I learned during my theology training the best way to get someone in a cult to see they are in a cult is not to address their cult but other cults.
Someone in a cult will readily agree that those in another cult are dupes in a cult. So then you explore the methodologies for brainwashing and control the other cult utilises. The subject then realises on their own that the same techniques are applied to them.
Cult methodology is pretty much unified as there are a limited number of effective brainwashing techniques, the doctrines and name may be different but the techniques are very similar.

What little I am seeing about this group links in with standard cult methodology and mindset, but I dont know enough abouit this group yet to tell. But the markers appear to be there.