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2015/11/02 04:45:15
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: That is not victim blaming. As much as you'd probably like it to be. Resisting when appropriate and being aware of your situation would go a long way towards solving the rape problem.
Not putting genitals into non-consenting orifices helps a little though...
Well duh, of course we should prosecute the offending parties to the fullest extent of the law. And I think Rape should have much steeper punishments as well(up to and including the Death penalty depending on the situation). We should also train and educate people so they can prevent themselves from becoming victimized, both through education on looking for warning signs for bad situations and being equipped to defend yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 04:45:55
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: That is not victim blaming. As much as you'd probably like it to be. Resisting when appropriate and being aware of your situation would go a long way towards solving the rape problem.
Not putting genitals into non-consenting orifices helps a little though...
He is merely saying if something bad were to happen it may be worth resisting.
If that is victim shaming to you then I think you need to have a serious think about the value of prevention when dealing crime and how it can help a victim.
He did not say it was her fault at all.
2015/11/02 04:46:55
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: I've heard that merely the act of resisting is often enough to deter an attacker, its just that most rapes aren't resisted or reported. I think if everyone fought back the numbers would be better.
Grey Templar wrote: That is not victim blaming. As much as you'd probably like it to be. Resisting when appropriate and being aware of your situation would go a long way towards solving the rape problem.
This is literally the definition of victim blaming, that victims have a responsibility to "solve the rape problem". It is implying that at least some of the fault lays with the victims for not fighting back hard enough.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/02 04:50:21
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/11/02 04:50:52
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: And I think Rape should have much steeper punishments as well(up to and including the Death penalty depending on the situation).
No. As much as I like the idea of dead rapists what allowing the death penalty for rape really means is that you might as well kill the victim too and leave no witness. After all, the punishment for murder is no worse than the punishment you're already getting if you get caught, so why take the risk of leaving the victim alive?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/11/02 04:52:18
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: That is not victim blaming. As much as you'd probably like it to be. Resisting when appropriate and being aware of your situation would go a long way towards solving the rape problem.
Not putting genitals into non-consenting orifices helps a little though...
He is merely saying if something bad were to happen it may be worth resisting.
If that is victim shaming to you then I think you need to have a serious think about the value of prevention when dealing crime and how it can help a victim.
He did not say it was her fault at all.
And resisting a cop that is raping you will never end well for the criminal that is already in trouble. Since cops are the particular perpetrators in this story we should keep that in mind when we talk about how people being raped should attack the officers so that they get raped less.
2015/11/02 04:52:57
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
No, its really not. Saying that they can do things to make the situation better or avoid it completely is not saying its their fault.
If I deliberately crash into someone's car and kill them, its not suddenly their fault if they weren't wearing their seat belts. But they should still have been wearing them.
All I am advocating for is empowerment of potential victims to help themselves not be victims.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: And I think Rape should have much steeper punishments as well(up to and including the Death penalty depending on the situation).
No. As much as I like the idea of dead rapists what allowing the death penalty for rape really means is that you might as well kill the victim too and leave no witness. After all, the punishment for murder is no worse than the punishment you're already getting if you get caught, so why take the risk of leaving the victim alive?
What perhaps you don't realize is that GT is an enormous fan of the death penalty. So the idea of a dead victim isn't a problem for him ideologically:
Spoiler:
Grey Templar wrote: But locking an innocent man away for life is no better than executing him. In a way its worse because he's being confined indefinitely.
And no, the possibility that he'll get exonerated isn't an upside. He'd still have lost potentially decades of his life. You might as well have killed him.
You've also exposed him to the criminal elements in prison, now he's more likely to actually become a real criminal.
The possibility of executing someone who is innocent is low enough that its an acceptable risk. yes, the justice system needs reform. cutting the death penalty isn't part of that.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/11/02 04:59:02
Subject: AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Ouze wrote:
This is literally the definition of victim blaming, that victims have a responsibility to "solve the rape problem". It is implying that at least some of the fault lays with the victims for not fighting back hard enough.
Peregrine wrote:
Grey Templar wrote: And I think Rape should have much steeper punishments as well(up to and including the Death penalty depending on the situation).
No. As much as I like the idea of dead rapists what allowing the death penalty for rape really means is that you might as well kill the victim too and leave no witness. After all, the punishment for murder is no worse than the punishment you're already getting if you get caught, so why take the risk of leaving the victim alive?
I think i understand his general intent though, correct me if i'm wrong? We live in a society where justice isn't necessarily going to happen, and sometimes the victim or potential victim *is* the only one that can do anything about it. Its not an easy call to make though, do you risk more rapes with a lighter potential punishment, or more murders with a higher potential punishment? Where should the line be drawn?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:02:09
2015/11/02 05:01:40
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: And I think Rape should have much steeper punishments as well(up to and including the Death penalty depending on the situation).
No. As much as I like the idea of dead rapists what allowing the death penalty for rape really means is that you might as well kill the victim too and leave no witness. After all, the punishment for murder is no worse than the punishment you're already getting if you get caught, so why take the risk of leaving the victim alive?
I doubt too many people consider the potential punishment when deciding if to commit a particular crime.
After all, if deterrent based punishment doesn't work then you just make the punishment fit the crime. And Rape definitely is one where Death is a punishment that should be on the table.
If deterrent based punishment does work then making the penalty stiffer will reduce the numbers.
Alternately, if you don't want death then I'd consider castration to be a fitting punishment as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:03:57
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: And I think Rape should have much steeper punishments as well(up to and including the Death penalty depending on the situation).
No. As much as I like the idea of dead rapists what allowing the death penalty for rape really means is that you might as well kill the victim too and leave no witness. After all, the punishment for murder is no worse than the punishment you're already getting if you get caught, so why take the risk of leaving the victim alive?
I doubt too many people consider the potential punishment when deciding if to commit a particular crime.
After all, if deterrent based punishment doesn't work then you just make the punishment fit the crime. And Rape definitely is one where Death is a punishment that should be on the table.
If deterrent based punishment does work then making the penalty stiffer will reduce the numbers.
It depends on how you define deterrence though. Prison overcrowding and people avoiding jail due to this happens for a reason, once you start punishing all the criminals you can find, the system clogs up if there's too many of them. Some people know what they can get away with, and the risk doesn't outweigh the reward. In that respect, the death penalty would be a more pragmatic deterrent.
2015/11/02 05:07:34
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: I doubt too many people consider the potential punishment when deciding if to commit a particular crime.
Then why have punishment at all, if it isn't going to prevent a crime?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/11/02 05:13:12
Subject: AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The punishment itself is its own reason to exist. In theory, its that you will prevent this person from committing these acts in the future. Deterrent does also exist, but only to a point as humans are not supremely rational beings. Particularly crimes of passion where the person is not thinking in a rational manner. A rapist is most likely not thinking about getting caught and what will happen, he's focusing on the terrible act itself. Same with someone who flys off the handle and kills someone in a fit of rage, they weren't thinking about the punishment. But the punishment is still important to have.
And some crimes are so heinous that the person who committed them should be removed permanently from existence. I think rape can definitely fall into that category.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:14:34
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Sadly, a lot of women do resist but it isn't enough, they still get overpowered. Guys who know they can not overpower a women, they resort to rendering the woman helpless. This could be by drugs, booze, or intimidation. To assume these women roll over and just take it is absurd. You were not there, hopefully, so you do not know if they put up a fight or not. I'm sure if you started asking these women or read accounts you would find they were unable to fight or were somehow rendered powerless to stop them.
Have you ever fought a cop? Have you ever tried to escape a cop? Police officers are trained to subdue people, to restrain them, and to use force when necessary. That is intimidating when the most resistant people she has faced are toddlers.
I'm back!
2015/11/02 05:14:29
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: I doubt too many people consider the potential punishment when deciding if to commit a particular crime.
Then why have punishment at all, if it isn't going to prevent a crime?
Well, generally, not to prevent the initial crime. That's the problem. It deters initial crime by presenting example of what would happen were you to do it, and deters future crime by preventing those people from being able to do such things in the future. The second problem is that this also only happens in an ideal case. At the end of the day, people are crazy.
How isn't it? If you don't believe that punishing crimes prevents future crimes then all you're left with is petty vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus wrote: Well, generally, not to prevent the initial crime. That's the problem. It deters initial crime by presenting example of what would happen were you to do it, and deters future crime by preventing those people from being able to do such things in the future.
Exactly, but which example would you rather set for a potential rapist? That they'll spend a long time in prison if they rape that person, and they'll be executed if they murder the victim? Or that they're going to be executed already if they rape the victim, so they might as well commit as many other crimes as they want? If you start imposing the death penalty for crimes that are less than murder then a criminal has nothing left to lose and "might as well murder all of the witnesses" becomes the obvious correct choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:20:47
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/11/02 05:24:05
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Is there something necessarily wrong with vengeance?
And again, you are assuming that the criminal is a perfectly rational person who is considering all the pros and cons when that is usually the exact opposite. Criminals aren't rational people, otherwise they probably wouldn't be criminals and would have found/chosen a better path. If people were perfectly rational we would have no need for laws and everyone would live in harmony.
Every rapist would realize that a moments gratification isn't worth 10-20 years in prison and forever being stuck on the sex offender registry, no matter the probability of getting caught.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:25:07
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Peregrine wrote: Exactly, but which example would you rather set for a potential rapist? That they'll spend a long time in prison if they rape that person, and they'll be executed if they murder the victim? Or that they're going to be executed already if they rape the victim, so they might as well commit as many other crimes as they want? If you start imposing the death penalty for crimes that are less than murder then a criminal has nothing left to lose and "might as well murder all of the witnesses" becomes the obvious correct choice.
That's assuming they spend a long time in prison after they get caught.
2015/11/02 05:25:04
Subject: AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: A rapist is most likely not thinking about getting caught and what will happen, he's focusing on the terrible act itself.
But at least some are, especially since they've probably had time to think about their crime in advance. You really don't want someone going into a rape determined to kill the victim as well. And even if it isn't perfect how many dead victims should be acceptable?
And some crimes are so heinous that the person who committed them should be removed permanently from existence. I think rape can definitely fall into that category.
Which is nice in theory, and I'm not disputing that rapists are horrible people. But the practical realities of saving future victims have to take priority over our desire to see bad people punished.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/11/02 05:25:13
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Exactly, but which example would you rather set for a potential rapist? That they'll spend a long time in prison if they rape that person, and they'll be executed if they murder the victim? Or that they're going to be executed already if they rape the victim, so they might as well commit as many other crimes as they want? If you start imposing the death penalty for crimes that are less than murder then a criminal has nothing left to lose and "might as well murder all of the witnesses" becomes the obvious correct choice.
I have very little dog in the 'death penalty' vs 'no death penalty' fight, so I'm going to sidestep that and wait for people better informed than myself to step in on that one. If I had to say something, then I would point out that it seems to me that it's pretty easy to kill someone for something you suspect based upon 'evidence' and still be wrong. At the end of the day though, you can exonerate someone from prison, or whatever the legal term is for it. I'm still not aware of a means to bring someone back to life.
Personally though, and paradoxically, I feel like if you gave me the choice between dying and suffering life in prison, I'd rather die. I personally see imprisonment more intolerable, though I recognize most would say the opposite.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:27:10
And again, you are assuming that the criminal is a perfectly rational person who is considering all the pros and cons when that is usually the exact opposite. Criminals aren't rational people, otherwise they probably wouldn't be criminals and would have found/chosen a better path. If people were perfectly rational we would have no need for laws and everyone would live in harmony.
No, I'm assuming that a criminal at least has the minimal level of intelligence to know that if we make a big show of executing rapists they could be next, and so there's no reason to care whether or not the victim lives. And that's just considering the practical question of removing witnesses, do you really want a rapist deciding that they might as well see how much fun it is to kill someone because they've got nothing left to lose?
Every rapist would realize that a moments gratification isn't worth 10-20 years in prison and forever being stuck on the sex offender registry, no matter the probability of getting caught.
Yes, but I think they can still understand the difference between 10-20 years in prison and death.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/11/02 05:31:29
Subject: AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: A rapist is most likely not thinking about getting caught and what will happen, he's focusing on the terrible act itself.
But at least some are, especially since they've probably had time to think about their crime in advance. You really don't want someone going into a rape determined to kill the victim as well. And even if it isn't perfect how many dead victims should be acceptable?
I don't think many rapes are planned in advance, but I'd love to see some numbers on that. And even if there is planning that doesn't prove that the person is thinking totally rationally. I would be more inclined to say they're just thinking about getting some and how to go about doing that. The plan is no more complicated than 1) Chat cute girl up at bar 2) slip her a roofie 3) take her home and have "fun". Nothing beyond that is considered. And anyone who does rationally consider the punishment and think its worth it is probably what you and I would call a psychopath of any number of various flavors, and wouldn't care about any consequences at all.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Then he clearly falls into the psychopath category, and definitely needs to be removed from the force and never see the outside of a cell again.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Sociopath more like it, psycopaths tend to have less grasp on reality, if this guy did it then he seemed to choose his victims with a bit of care (drug users) which helps mitigate any potential investigations. Of course, he could still be innocent who knows.
2015/11/02 05:43:52
Subject: Re:AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
Grey Templar wrote: Then he clearly falls into the psychopath category, and definitely needs to be removed from the force and never see the outside of a cell again.
You're not going to get any disagreement from me here. But this guy is exactly the kind of situation I'm talking about. This wasn't a one-time event, he knew exactly what he was doing and did it over and over again. So that's plenty of time to think "maybe I should kill the next one", and for the death penalty to be a deterrent.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/11/02 05:45:44
Subject: AP: Hundreds of officers lose licenses over sex misconduct
That, I think we can all agree on. I mean that he should be in prison.
I highly doubt a corrupt cop thinks about the potential punishment for his actions any more than the pope thinks about reincarnation: it's just not something that exists to him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 05:49:25
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, if the penalty is death and he just decides to kill his victims doesn't that make it more likely that he'll get caught? And victimize less people overall?
We are basically choosing between 2 terrible options. Is it better that he victimize 10 women, and kill some of them, or it better that he victimize 30 but they all remain alive? I'm gonna say less victims is better. After all, if the punishment is less severe he might think he can get away with it more.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Maybe he wouldn't have raped any of them if the death penalty had been the rape deterrent? Disposing of bodies isn't the easiest of things, especially since his gps put him at the site of several encounters.
