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"Once per battle, in the enemy shooting phase, a model equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to. Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made. The enemy unit can only make Snap Shots in that shooting phase."
Seems pretty straightforward. Let's break it down, line by line. Let's assume that I have a unit of three Ghostkeels, nicknamed Manny, Moe and Jack.
"Once per battle, in the enemy shooting phase, a model equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to."
In this sentence, what is the subject? A model equipped with holophoton countermeasures. We'll say it's Manny. What can Manny do? He can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting him or the unit he belongs to? What does this mean? It's explained later in the rule. How often can he do this, and when? He can do this once per game and only during the enemy shooting phase. This is interesting because it lets us know that Manny can't do this more than once and can't do it to disrupt targeting systems during an enemy Overwatch.
"Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made."
Wait a second... this is now internally inconsistent. The previous sentence told us that models can disrupt targeting systems. Now we're told that the way to signify that a model is using its holophoton countermeasures is by declaring that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures? You know what? This is actually fine. Manny wants to disrupt the targeting systems of his enemies. The player lets Manny do this by declaring that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures. If Moe subsequently wanted to disrupt the targeting systems of his enemies, the player would let Moe do so the same way... by declaring the the unit is using the holophoton countermeasures. Which ones? Moe's.
"The enemy unit can only make Snap Shots in that shooting phase."
Ah. Now we know what disrupting targeting systems actually means. It means that the enemies will make Snap Shots in that shooting phase.
So, when we put this all together we get the following...
Manny is allowed to force an enemy unit to make Snap Shots when he or his unit is targeted by having his owning players declare the use of holophoton countermeasures.
Moe is also allowed to force an enemy unit to make Snap Shots when he or his unit is targeted by having his owning players declare the use of holophoton countermeasures.
Jack is also allowed to force an enemy unit to make Snap Shots when he or his unit is targeted by having his owning players declare the use of holophoton countermeasures.
In the absence of any wording saying the all models in a unit have to disrupt the targeting systems of their enemies based on the same incoming targeting, we can safely assume that the only limiting factor - once per game - applies individually to each of the three Ghostkeels.
This is how I would play it and also how I believe the rules to be written. Yes, it gives an advantage to larger units of Ghostkeels... but these things are SUPPOSED to be near impossible to see well enough to shoot at. A unit of three being able to pop holophoton countermeasures three times in a game seems to match the background we've been provided on these new battlesuits. As such, I'm inclined to believe this is what the authors intended.
So by that logic, a unit can Run (a unit based action) even if there is a model in the unit that can't. I see it this way:
1) Has the unit used its countermeasures if one model has? No.
2) Has the model used his countermeasures if the whole unit has? Yes.
Which doesn't break any rules if the rule says that you declare that the unit is using holophoton countermeasures?
Please stop. You have been proven wrong many times, ignore the facts, and keep posting your stuff over and over. You lost. No one agrees with you.
Okay the consensus seems to be that each suit uses it once. Ghaz I have tried to follow your counter logic but it just does not click for me. Knowing how ITC rules it makes it pretty clear for me too and let's me know how most tournaments will rule it. How can I now lock this thread so it does not become a flame war?
"Once per battle, in the enemy shooting phase, a model equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to. Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made. The enemy unit can only make Snap Shots in that shooting phase."
Seems pretty straightforward. Let's break it down, line by line. Let's assume that I have a unit of three Ghostkeels, nicknamed Manny, Moe and Jack.
"Once per battle, in the enemy shooting phase, a model equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to."
In this sentence, what is the subject? A model equipped with holophoton countermeasures. We'll say it's Manny. What can Manny do? He can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting him or the unit he belongs to? What does this mean? It's explained later in the rule. How often can he do this, and when? He can do this once per game and only during the enemy shooting phase. This is interesting because it lets us know that Manny can't do this more than once and can't do it to disrupt targeting systems during an enemy Overwatch.
"Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made."
Wait a second... this is now internally inconsistent. The previous sentence told us that models can disrupt targeting systems. Now we're told that the way to signify that a model is using its holophoton countermeasures is by declaring that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures? You know what? This is actually fine. Manny wants to disrupt the targeting systems of his enemies. The player lets Manny do this by declaring that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures. If Moe subsequently wanted to disrupt the targeting systems of his enemies, the player would let Moe do so the same way... by declaring the the unit is using the holophoton countermeasures. Which ones? Moe's.
"The enemy unit can only make Snap Shots in that shooting phase."
Ah. Now we know what disrupting targeting systems actually means. It means that the enemies will make Snap Shots in that shooting phase.
So, when we put this all together we get the following...
Manny is allowed to force an enemy unit to make Snap Shots when he or his unit is targeted by having his owning players declare the use of holophoton countermeasures.
Moe is also allowed to force an enemy unit to make Snap Shots when he or his unit is targeted by having his owning players declare the use of holophoton countermeasures.
Jack is also allowed to force an enemy unit to make Snap Shots when he or his unit is targeted by having his owning players declare the use of holophoton countermeasures.
In the absence of any wording saying the all models in a unit have to disrupt the targeting systems of their enemies based on the same incoming targeting, we can safely assume that the only limiting factor - once per game - applies individually to each of the three Ghostkeels.
This is how I would play it and also how I believe the rules to be written. Yes, it gives an advantage to larger units of Ghostkeels... but these things are SUPPOSED to be near impossible to see well enough to shoot at. A unit of three being able to pop holophoton countermeasures three times in a game seems to match the background we've been provided on these new battlesuits. As such, I'm inclined to believe this is what the authors intended.
So by that logic, a unit can Run (a unit based action) even if there is a model in the unit that can't. I see it this way:
1) Has the unit used its countermeasures if only one model has? No.
2) Has the model used his countermeasures if the whole unit has? Yes.
Which doesn't break any rules if the rule says that you declare that the unit is using holophoton countermeasures?
Red herring. Running is a completely different situation with differently worded rules. As such, it's not only a bad example, but not relevant to this discussion. Nobody is arguing that a unit can run multiple times if it has multiple models.
Also, your questions are bad. The unit doesn't have holophoton countermeasures. The models do. The better question is...
1) Has Ghostkeel #1 used its holophoton countermeasures if Ghostkeel #2 has? Based on the fact that each model can do so once per game, the answer is no. You seem to want the answer to be yes.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Its a perfectly valid example as both are actions performed by a unit, not individual models. The red herring is the multiple times as there's no evidence that a unit can use the countermeasures multiple times. So can half a unit Run and half of a unit not Run?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/11/10 20:51:56
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
blaktoof wrote: Not really valid, I e specifies a model can do something to benefit the whole unit. The other does not.
Inconsequential. The fact that it says that the unit will use the countermeasures is what matters.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/11/10 20:56:05
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
Naw wrote: As the OP said, time to close this thread?
As long as the discussion doesn't break any forum rules, I don't see a reason to do so. All it will do is delay the inevitable.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/11/10 21:05:09
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
You are not discussing, you keep going in a circle. You have been pointed out to be incorrect many times, but you still insist red is yellow.
A model activates, a unit benefits. How many times can the unit benefit from the countermeasures? Let me answer for you: We are not told. How many times a model can activate countermeasures: Once per battle. So logically and by the rules, if I have three models with the countermeasures, each one can activate them at different time. It might even be a case that I am targeted by three different units, and I could force them all to snapshot.
2015/11/10 21:08:44
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
And I've pointed out the others are incorrect. Are they going in a circle insisting blue is green?
I've shown where it says that the unit declares that they are using the countermeasures. So again, does only one model = the unit?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/10 21:10:40
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
blaktoof wrote: Not really valid, I e specifies a model can do something to benefit the whole unit. The other does not.
Inconsequential. The fact that it says that the unit will use the countermeasures is what matters.
The fact that the unit uses it is not in question. What requires every model to use it up at the same time when the unit uses it, especially when the "Once per game" use is tied to the model, not the unit?
You have not properly quoted anything to support this up to this point.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/11/10 21:20:46
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
Yeah, whether or not the unit is using it is kind of inconsequential. The unit =/= each model in the unit.
Manny can use the HC once per game.
Moe can use the HC once per game.
Jack can use the HC once per game.
There is no wording telling us that all models count as having used their HCs if at least one model in the unit uses its HC.
If the rules said "A unit can only activate it's holophoton countermeasures once per game.", then you'd have a slam dunk. Once per unit. However, this isn't in the rules. The rules actually say once per model per game. Assuming that they all have to use it simultaneously is an assumption and not actually in the rules text.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Ghaz wrote: And I've pointed out the others are incorrect. Are they going in a circle insisting blue is green?
I've shown where it says that the unit declares that they are using the countermeasures. So again, does only one model = the unit?
You fail to provide any support from real actual rules. Can you answer following:
1) Where does it say that when a model activates countermeasures _all models_ in the unit must also activate theirs?
2) Where does it say that a unit (ignore one model unit in this context) activates countermeasures?
3) Where does it say that a unit can benefit only once from the countermeasures, especially considering that it is a target unit that suffers from the activation?
2015/11/11 15:34:38
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
On a side note: if a unit can not fire snap shots...can it still charge after declaring the target and they use the countermeasures?
Example: a big mek with shokk attack gun declares a ghostkeel as its target and it uses the countermeasures. The Mek can no longer fire because you can not fire Ordnance weapons as snap shots. Would that free him up to charge because he never actually fired the weapon?
This actually came up in a game, we decided to let him charge, but only the unit he declared as the original target (the ghostkeel). Similar to the if you fire assault weapons you are supposed to charge the same unit you fired at rule.
2015/11/11 15:43:40
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
In the case of the Big Mek, what did he roll for the result of his Shokk Attack Gun? At least one of the results would not have cared if it was Snap Shooting at all, and gotten past all their Overwatch Shenanigans as well.
If he chose not to roll, it would be as if he didn't shoot. If he chose to roll, it would be as if he shot.
Note: that this is not necessarily the rules as written, just a way to provide a choice for the user with a valid consequence.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/11/11 15:48:18
Subject: Holophoton Countermeasures: Consensus reached. Mod please lock
Cool so you can use it as often as you want as the Model sentence (which is also the once per battle sentence) is fluff? If you're saying the model part has no relevance as the model does not activate the ability then the unit is free to activate the ability as often as it wants as there is no unit level restriction. Cool thanks Ghaz and Kel for making my Ghostkeels so much better.
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