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 Kriswall wrote:
The Drop Pod example is mind blowing. I'm changing my stance. Given the same wording, Land Raiders should be able to Deep Strike.

It's either that or deny the ability for Drop Pods to Deep Strike.

While I never had Drop Pods for my Marines, I do not think I am ready to deny them Deep Strike.

And if anyone cares, I just checked the BA orbital intervention formation from Exterminatus. It's the same, units must start in deep strike reserve, no restrictions on unit upgrades. weird!

As I said, implied permission is permission in a permissive rule set.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As I said, implied permission is permission in a permissive rule set.

SJ

This is still wrong. I'm just changing my opinion because I'm more willing to make an allowance for GW's garbage writing. If we take a hardline RaW stance on Deathwing Land Raiders, we have to take the same stance on Drop Pods. Doing otherwise makes us hypocrites. I don't think implied permission is RaW permission, but I do think Drop Pods are intended to Deep Strike and don't want to be a hypocrite about the Land Raiders.

So... you're not wrong, but only accidentally so.

 Kriswall wrote:

So... you're not wrong, but only accidentally so.

"Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct."

Being told to start in Deep Strike Reserve and to then arrive from reserves implies the Deep Strike rules, despite not having the Deep Strike rule. Implied permission is still permission. Saying it isn't so does not make it not so.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Being told to start in Deep Strike Reserve and to then arrive from reserves implies the Deep Strike rules, despite not having the Deep Strike rule. Implied permission is still permission. Saying it isn't so does not make it not so.

Rules As Implied is not Rules As Written, so just saying it is implied does not make it so. Especially when being put in Deep Strike Reserves requires having the Deep Strike rule.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin
the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Your sentence does not technically disallow this one.

This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.

Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??

Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??

Piousservant wrote:

This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.

Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??

Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??

There is a difference between "everything has" and "everything must have", so your example isn't a good one.

"Dedicated Transports in this Formation have the Deep Strike special rule" isn't the same thing as "Dedicated Transports in this Formation must begin in Deep Strike Reserves". The first grants a rule. The second imposes a restriction. Since I'm selecting the Formation before I select the units in the Formation, I am aware of this restriction when making my unit selections. If I know that all units selected must start in Deep Strike Reserves, I should probably only select units that have the ability to come in from Deep Strike Reserves. Typically, this would mean any unit that has the Deep Strike rule OR is riding in a deep strike process using Transport OR has special wording allowing a Deep Strike process without having the Deep Strike rule (such as with Drop Pods). Land Raiders in this situation don't have the Deep Strike rule, definitely aren't inside a Transport and don't actually have special wording. There is an implication, but the implication creates a scenario that would never exist in the fluff, so probably doesn't align with the author's intent.

HIWPI - If I were at a tournament and the TO decided to allow Deep Striking Land Raiders, I'd go along with it, but I'd think it was a little forced. My group of friends all agrees that Land Raiders can't teleport (which is the preferred method of attack for the Deathwing).

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Deathwing Assault:
All units in this Formation must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, make a secret note of which of your turns you would like each Deathwing Redemption Force in your army to arrive: your turn 2, 3 or 4. All units in this Formation automatically arrive by Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn.

If this Formation includes a Venerable Dreadnought embarked in a Drop Pod, the Drop Pod automatically arrives at the start of the chosen turn, and ignores the normal rules that determine when a Drop Pod arrives.

Much like the last:

Your sentence does not technically disallow this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Piousservant wrote:

This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.

Because the Detachment is not actually granting the rule, but requiring it. The Ravenwing detachment didn't grant the Ravenwing Special Rule to those who joined it any more than Deep Strike is granted to these.

Piousservant wrote:
Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??

Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??

There is a difference between:
* All units must be able to Deep Strike
and:
* Special Rules: Deep Strike
* {Special Rule}: Units in this Formation/Detachment receive the Deep Strike Special Rule.

As been referenced, Drop Pods technically do not have Deep Strike, but are required to. Dedicated Land Raiders in the Deathwing detachments must Deep Strike, but do not have the rule.

It is an assumption that they are given the rule posthumously by the requirement, but no such rule actually ignores this requirement. For the sake of intelligent design, I would allow it for both cases, though.

And no, Gate of Infinity and Veil of Darkness are completely different cases.

I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

 Kriswall wrote:
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.

Definitely more of a HWIPI design.

Piousservant wrote:

This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.

Because the Detachment is not actually granting the rule, but requiring it. The Ravenwing detachment didn't grant the Ravenwing Special Rule to those who joined it any more than Deep Strike is granted to these.

Piousservant wrote:
Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??

Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??

There is a difference between:
* All units must be able to Deep Strike
and:
* Special Rules: Deep Strike
* {Special Rule}: Units in this Formation/Detachment receive the Deep Strike Special Rule.

As been referenced, Drop Pods technically do not have Deep Strike, but are required to. Dedicated Land Raiders in the Deathwing detachments must Deep Strike, but do not have the rule.

It is an assumption that they are given the rule posthumously by the requirement, but no such rule actually ignores this requirement. For the sake of intelligent design, I would allow it for both cases, though.

And no, Gate of Infinity and Veil of Darkness are completely different cases.

Except, you've added some words in there. If the detachment said that all units in it "must be able to" deep strike then it wouldn't be up for debate. Instead it just says that they "must" - which you're saying is a restriction (they must be able to) but without those extra words of yours it doesn't mean that.

To put it another way (as I'd agree my example wasn't the best), if a detachment/formation says I can take some units and then says I must do something that they can't normally do - surely it's clear that the units then can, in fact, do whatever "it" is in that specific instance? Just curious, if the detachment entry specifically said you can take say 0-3 land raiders, would you still think that the "must enter ds reserve" means that you can't actually take those land raiders? I don't see how that makes any sense.


But... For the record I think deep striking land raiders is pretty daft, but if that's the only way I can legally use them in a DW army then so be it! (And as anyone who tried it with the 5th ed BA codex will probably attest, deep striking land raiders are a magnet for mishaps on a table with any kind of decent amount of terrain!)

Piousservant wrote:
Except, you've added some words in there. If the detachment said that all units in it "must be able to" deep strike then it wouldn't be up for debate. Instead it just says that they "must" - which you're saying is a restriction (they must be able to) but without those extra words of yours it doesn't mean that.

To put it another way (as I'd agree my example wasn't the best), if a detachment/formation says I can take some units and then says I must do something that they can't normally do - surely it's clear that the units then can, in fact, do whatever "it" is in that specific instance? Just curious, if the detachment entry specifically said you can take say 0-3 land raiders, would you still think that the "must enter ds reserve" means that you can't actually take those land raiders? I don't see how that makes any sense.

Saying something can do something because it is a requirement, even though they lack the ability, is assuming a situation, especially when that something is not required to be included in the first place when it comes to Deathwing Dedicated Land Raiders. You are assuming permission based on a requirement and not an ability.

That being said, I think that some assumptions were made by the editors and writers and we're expected to make up the difference. Pretty much par for Sandboxhammer.

I've allowed my opponents to have their Deepstriking Landraiders. Everything must be in DSan reserve, and there is no restrictions on the LR, I wouldn't argue against it...

However I am glad they (sorta) cleared up the Characters on a Bike and whether they get the Ravenwing special rules, which it seems like they do not.

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.

Definitely more of a HWIPI design.

So this is more like the Psyker ICs in a unit thing. The rules as written don't really work, but as a convention, we all agree that Drop Pods can deep strike despite not having the deep strike rule and never being explicitly granted said rule. I'm not sure I'd buy into the same convention for Land Raiders. Drop Pods are clearly designed to Deep Strike. Land Raiders aren't. Even in the fluff, Deathwing are usually shown teleporting in. I don't think I've ever read of an instance where Deathwing are deployed via Thunderhawk Transport carried Land Raiders dropping out of the sky. I know fluff doesn't justify rules, but it should inform interpretation when there is an ambiguity.

The land raider might be destroyed - it is placed in deep strike reserve but without the deep strike rule there is nothing allowing it to come out of deep strike reserve.

Under Deep Strike in BRB:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

The phrase 'you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' could also mean though that because the land raider was placed in deep strike reserve it now has the express permission to deep strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading the above quote again though - 'In order for a unit to be able to Deep strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule' is pretty straight forward.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
The land raider might be destroyed - it is placed in deep strike reserve but without the deep strike rule there is nothing allowing it to come out of deep strike reserve.

Under Deep Strike in BRB:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

The phrase 'you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' could also mean though that because the land raider was placed in deep strike reserve it now has the express permission to deep strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading the above quote again though - 'In order for a unit to be able to Deep strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule' is pretty straight forward.

So you're saying Drop Pods cannot Deep Strike because they do not have the Deep Strike rule?

axisofentropy wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
The land raider might be destroyed - it is placed in deep strike reserve but without the deep strike rule there is nothing allowing it to come out of deep strike reserve.

Under Deep Strike in BRB:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

The phrase 'you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' could also mean though that because the land raider was placed in deep strike reserve it now has the express permission to deep strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading the above quote again though - 'In order for a unit to be able to Deep strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule' is pretty straight forward.

So you're saying Drop Pods cannot Deep Strike because they do not have the Deep Strike rule?

From a strict rules as written perspective, this is correct. Nobody actually plays it this way though, but technically Drop Pods can't Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule. There is no rule specifically saying that they can deep strike despite not having the rule.

GW writes bad rules. This is nothing new. A certain amount of interpretation an agreement to overlook inconsistencies is required to play this game. Generally speaking, the intent (Drop Pods should be able to Deep Strike) is fairly clear, but in other instances (Land Raiders should be able to Deep Strike?!?), it's not. These are the instances where we bicker endlessly over the rules. We're really bickering over our interpretation of the rules and interpretation is often colored by how we think things should work.

BRB - Basic Versus Advanced wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.

BRB - Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
(...)
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The above Deep Strike restrictions was overwriten by Advanced Codex rules such as this:

Deathwing Strike Force wrote:Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve.

Drop Pod: wrote:Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve.

About arrival-hole problem claimed by some people - that units are destroyed because there is no way to deploy them because of lack of DS rule:

BRB - Deep Strike wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike". Again - it was granted by Advanced rules.
That is it!
We already know that those units are placed in DSR all proper permissions to arrive by Deep Strike are granted.

About fluff
There is problem with believing in flying Land Raiders so could someone please my explain why Terminator Armour may teleport and Land Raider can't?

 danyboy wrote:

BRB - Basic Versus Advanced wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.

BRB - Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
(...)
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The above Deep Strike restrictions was overwriten by Advanced Codex rules such as this:

Deathwing Strike Force wrote:Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve.

Drop Pod: wrote:Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve.

About arrival-hole problem claimed by some people - that units are destroyed because there is no way to deploy them because of lack of DS rule:

BRB - Deep Strike wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike". Again - it was granted by Advanced rules.
That is it!
We already know that those units are placed in DSR all proper permissions to arrive by Deep Strike are granted.?

The problem being that they are still not literally granted Deep Strike, so do not qualify to use Deep Strike afterwards.

There is an implication, not in argument, but nothing in there to this point that reverse grants Deep Strike to models required to be in Deep Strike Reserves. This is an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption, nonetheless.

And yes, it is like a lot of Psychic Phase rules which require some work beyond a computer's processing to work properly. But that is nothing new, it's just really common these days.

Even Titans can teleport, no reason to think Land Raiders can't.

SJ

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.

Definitely more of a HWIPI design.

Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?

Charistoph wrote:

 danyboy wrote:

From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike".

The problem being that they are still not literally granted Deep Strike, so do not qualify to use Deep Strike afterwards.

There is an implication, not in argument, but nothing in there to this point that reverse grants Deep Strike to models required to be in Deep Strike Reserves. This is an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption, nonetheless.

And yes, it is like a lot of Psychic Phase rules which require some work beyond a computer's processing to work properly. But that is nothing new, it's just really common these days.

I am sorry, but why "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" granted to units in Deep Strike Reserves is not sufficient to use Deep Strike rule?
"arriving by Deep Strike"
"by Deep Strike"
"Deep Strike"
?

Why Storm Ravens Skies of Fury allow to use Deep Strike rules by saing "as if it were Deep Striking" and our "arriving by Deep Strike" is not (both rules does not grant explicit Deep Strike rule)?

I don't speak english and surely I am wrong somwhere there, so I will not argue any more, just explain me above

Well back to the original OP and rereading the thread.

No LR allowed - this is not a restriction of the formation, so technically it is allowed

LR gains the deep strike rule - technically no but, it 'must be placed in deep strike reserve' which from what I can tell, like a drop pod as precedent, means that it will be arriving like a drop pod (no inertial guidance though)

LR are deployed as normal without their units - no nothing in any of the rules says to do this


Conclusion:

Ultimately, because of the 'must be placed in deep strike reserves' rule - the thing has the exact same rules as a drop pod! No inertial guidance and with the large footprint means the thing will need to be placed like 20" away from an enemy, ally or board edge though to be safe.

 danyboy wrote:

BRB - Basic Versus Advanced wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.

BRB - Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
(...)
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The above Deep Strike restrictions was overwriten by Advanced Codex rules such as this:

Deathwing Strike Force wrote:Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve.

Drop Pod: wrote:Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve.

About arrival-hole problem claimed by some people - that units are destroyed because there is no way to deploy them because of lack of DS rule:

BRB - Deep Strike wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike". Again - it was granted by Advanced rules.
That is it!
We already know that those units are placed in DSR all proper permissions to arrive by Deep Strike are granted.

About fluff
There is problem with believing in flying Land Raiders so could someone please my explain why Terminator Armour may teleport and Land Raider can't?

STC Teleport Platforms are too small to accommodate Land Raiders. Plus, the Land Raiders can't get through the door to the Teleportarium. Seriously dude. It's like you've never been on a Battle Barge.

DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.

Definitely more of a HWIPI design.

Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?

Since they lost the Deep Strike Special Rule. The setup for a Drop Pod in Deep Strike Reserves is the same mechanism for placing a Deathwing unit's Dedicated Land Raider in Deep Strike Reserves. To deny one is to deny the other. To accept one is to accept the other.

Skyhammer Devastators would be able to Deep Strike as easily without their Drop Pods due to the same conditions, I believe.

 danyboy wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 danyboy wrote:

From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike".

The problem being that they are still not literally granted Deep Strike, so do not qualify to use Deep Strike afterwards.

There is an implication, not in argument, but nothing in there to this point that reverse grants Deep Strike to models required to be in Deep Strike Reserves. This is an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption, nonetheless.

And yes, it is like a lot of Psychic Phase rules which require some work beyond a computer's processing to work properly. But that is nothing new, it's just really common these days.

I am sorry, but why "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" granted to units in Deep Strike Reserves is not sufficient to use Deep Strike rule?
"arriving by Deep Strike"
"by Deep Strike"
"Deep Strike"
?

Why Storm Ravens Skies of Fury allow to use Deep Strike rules by saing "as if it were Deep Striking" and our "arriving by Deep Strike" is not (both rules does not grant explicit Deep Strike rule)?

I don't speak english and surely I am wrong somwhere there, so I will not argue any more, just explain me above

"Arriving by Deep Strike" is a section of the Deep Strike rules that talk about how it is put on the board after being removed in cases like the Psychic Gate of Infinity power or the Necron Relic Veil of Darkness. This section does not require Deep Strike Reserves by itself.

"As if it were Deep Striking" is creating a temporary condition to simulate the state being described, as opposed to being in the actual condition.

The other conditions we are talking about here do not skip over options or conditions as laid out in the rules. In order to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the rule (or be embarked on a Transport with a rule). You must declare they are in Reserves to Deep Strike, and this is called Deep Strike Reserves. And even those units which much start in Deep Strike Reserves are not noted as having been relieved of these conditions. Any such release of this obligation is being assumed because a Transport which has always Deep Striked has these conditions but without having the actual Special Rule.