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Charistoph wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.

Definitely more of a HWIPI design.

Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?

Since they lost the Deep Strike Special Rule.

But they have a rule that explicitly lets them deep strike.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.

Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.

Definitely more of a HWIPI design.

Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?

Since they lost the Deep Strike Special Rule.

But they have a rule that explicitly lets them deep strike.

Like what? Drop Pod Assault does not specifically state they get Deep Strike, and the only other mention of Deep Strike on the Datasheet is regarding Mishaps. All Drop Pod Assault states is that they "must be held in Deep Strike Reserve." Same as Deathwing detachment Special Rules/Command Benefits and Skyhammer Annihilation Formation Special Rules.

So, to deny one is to deny the other. To accept one is to accept the other.

Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.

Just as much as the Deathwing detachment rules do:

You need to you der stand the Differenzen between the deep Strike special rule and "must begin in deep Strike reserve".

The first gives you a choice to deploy in the board - something pods can not do. The do not habe the special rule, although they have to start in deep Strike. No choice!
Same with the deathwingstrike force, hast DS, no special rule, no choice. The formation has no restriction like " must have DS ".
Comparing this allows us to unterstand what this actually means: you have to da, wether you have th e special rule granting you the choice is of no relevance.

If you want to call it implied Perkussion or whatever makes no difference: all units in tbis formation can deep Strike AND have to do so. Like drop pods.

Also take in consideration, that the only choice for " dedicated Transport" is the landraider. Speciticly calling it out to be allowed in the formation makes only sense, if there is a way to deploy it.

If Belial is in the Land Raider as it deep strikes, does it scatter?

Here I was going to mention a local 'fix' of Land Raiders and any units within being deployed normally just to make everyone happy, but agreed with Kriswall, my stance has been completely changed. I'll have to spread that around my gaming group. The Dark Angel player will be so happy.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.

Just as much as the Deathwing detachment rules do:

Spoiler:

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.

Spoiler:

Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.

Those do not say the same thing

 DeathReaper wrote:
Those do not say the same thing

So what is the difference between, "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve" and " All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve"?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.

Just as much as the Deathwing detachment rules do:

Spoiler:

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.

Spoiler:

Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.

Those do not say the same thing

Expound and extrapolate the differences between "must be held in Deep Strike Reserve" and "must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve".

Haha I tried it.
I even showed my opponent the drop pod rule.
He was like "yeah, but for the drop pod it's clear that it can deep strike, for the landraider not. Land Raiders can not deepstrike".
No discussion possible "because they just can't" :-P

Im all for deep striking landraiders. BOOM BOOM BOOM

They're still not _good_.

The land raiders do not have permission. To arrive from ds reserves, or to arrive by ds.

The drop pod rule states they must arrive from ds. The dw rule does not give any permission to arrive on its own.

Without that you fall back on the ds rules requiring ds which the dw rule does not grant.

So option 4. You can take land raiders and when they roll for reserves if they pass they are removed from play as they have no permission to be placed from ds reserves, only permission to go into it.

blaktoof wrote:The land raiders do not have permission. To arrive from ds reserves, or to arrive by ds.

The drop pod rule states they must arrive from ds. The dw rule does not give any permission to arrive on its own.

Without that you fall back on the ds rules requiring ds which the dw rule does not grant.

So option 4. You can take land raiders and when they roll for reserves if they pass they are removed from play as they have no permission to be placed from ds reserves, only permission to go into it.

Not factual at all, here are the rules in question:


You want to try that summary again?

What Charistoph said.

Running the relevant parts parallel to each other, you end up with:

"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve."
"All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve."

You forgott to mark the part where drop pods are treated any different to the units of the formation.
Oh wait, there is no relevant difference!

Must be held and must begin the game is 100% the same meaning. If I would switch the blue parts, there would be no difference to the discussion.

Aeri wrote:
Haha I tried it.
I even showed my opponent the drop pod rule.
He was like "yeah, but for the drop pod it's clear that it can deep strike, for the landraider not. Land Raiders can not deepstrike".
No discussion possible "because they just can't" :-P

Next time tell him there is fluff and precedent - blood angels landraiders in previous codex could deepstrike and had fluff to back it up

what was the fluff if I may ask? dont have a BA codex at hand.

Aeri wrote:
what was the fluff if I may ask? dont have a BA codex at hand.

Forgeworld used to sell a Thunderhawk Transport. It's been discontinued for awhile. I can't imagine it was a hot seller. The Land Raiders don't teleport in like Terminators or drop from the skies like a Drop Pod. They were brought in using these bad boys.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Running the relevant parts parallel to each other, you end up with:

"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve."
"All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve."

great summary I'll quote whenever this comes up again.

Whoa...that's a mega good point re: drop pods. I guess I'm voting that they get deep strike.

so what about ezekiel, azmodai and the other deathwing characters?

Aeri wrote:
so what about ezekiel, azmodai and the other deathwing characters?

If they can be taken in the detachment then they are no different to Land Raiders.

Awesome. Deathwing just got their Land Raiders back. And a good thing too. Think of how many players have bone coloured LRs specifically for their DW.

A surprising twist... I'll have to check BS if that all is possible, especially the named IC's.
This in turn means that IC's do also not HAVE to have terminator armor equipped. Still feels weird to me and not gonna do it, but rules are rules..

As with a lot of the unusual formation interactions (Scouting fortifications for Skitarii, Ws2/Bs5 Waveserpents etc) i think this is probably an oversight - but looks like it's legit. Has a whiff of rules lawyering about it though.

Skitarii can't scout fortifications and WS aren't Bs2 on snap shots and it seems entirely intended for them to be bs5 normally otherwise.

This seems more unintentional particularly with regards to ICs without DS. However they haven't explained it well enough to give clarity either way on that so I'd probably advise playing RaW in this situation for consistency if nothing else.

A point that came up in the FB DA group after a lengthy discussion...

"STW does not mitigate the requirement of needing the deep strike rule as all it says is they can automatically pass or fail reserve rolls. It makes no mention of them arriving from reserve.

The difference is DPA specifically mentioned the pods arriving on the board and how they do it. STW does not, saying that a land raider automatically passes it's reserve rule is fine, but it doesn't meet the requirements to come on the board"

I cannot debunk that. Anyone smarter than me...?

DPA makes no mention of deepstrike or how the DPs arrive. Just that they arrive automatically from reserve and that the passengers must disembark when the pod "lands".