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When people say power armor, they really mean a powered exoskeleton.
That's the definition of power armor, a wearable, mechanical exoskeleton with armor plating.

From wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton

A powered exoskeleton, also known as powered armor, exoframe, or exosuit, is a mobile machine consisting primarily of an outer framework (akin to an insect's exoskeleton) worn by a person, and powered by a system of motors, hydraulics or Pneumatics that delivers at least part of the energy for limb movement.

If you look at most power armor in fiction, be the suits in Starship troopers, the T51b from Fallout, or the IoM powered armor, you'd find that they fit the description above.

Does stormtrooper armor have a supporting exoskeleton? I don't think so.

Its not even listed under TV tropes

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoweredArmor

Wouldn't Stormtroopers in 40k stats be something like:

WS3, BS4(*), S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD8, Armour 4+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Usual upgrades for heavier Blasters, E-web, Scouts etc?
They seem to be well trained and disciplined and are noted good shots (!) with reasonable armour which has environmental functions (which 40k ignores for all armies)

(*) being generous here

A Rebel would be:

WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD7, Armour 5+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wouldn't Stormtroopers in 40k stats be something like:

WS3, BS4(*), S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD8, Armour 4+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Usual upgrades for heavier Blasters, E-web, Scouts etc?
They seem to be well trained and disciplined and are noted good shots (!) with reasonable armour which has environmental functions (which 40k ignores for all armies)

(*) being generous here

A Rebel would be:

WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD7, Armour 5+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Yeah, that sounds about right.
Also, you are wrong about 40k not having armor with environmental functions.

Powered Armor can be used in a vacuum, and can survive harsh conditions.

IG soldiers are given helmets with rebreathers, and though it is not represented on the table top, there is are variants of flak armor desiged for environmental conditions.

Carapace Armor, particularly that worn by Stormtroopers, have a pressurized variant for ship combat.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wouldn't Stormtroopers in 40k stats be something like:

WS3, BS4(*), S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD8, Armour 4+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Usual upgrades for heavier Blasters, E-web, Scouts etc?
They seem to be well trained and disciplined and are noted good shots (!) with reasonable armour which has environmental functions (which 40k ignores for all armies)

(*) being generous here

A Rebel would be:

WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD7, Armour 5+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Yeah, that sounds about right.
Also, you are wrong about 40k not having armor with environmental functions.

Powered Armor can be used in a vacuum, and can survive harsh conditions.

IG soldiers are given helmets with rebreathers, and though it is not represented on the table top, there is are variants of flak armor desiged for environmental conditions.

Carapace Armor, particularly that worn by Stormtroopers, have a pressurized variant for ship combat.

Sorry I meant that the environmental and sensor elements of the various armours never comes up in 40k rules - even the bits that should do like Night Fighting / Blind weapons etc

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.

But Sororitas armor IS an armored exoskeleton. It allows the wearer to shoot from the hip weapons that are made for tanks, and that requires two very trained men without armor to just carry (and they set it on the ground when they want to shoot it).

What fiction are you reading? Sister don't tote tank weapons. They tote the holy trinity of the Bolter, the Flamer, and the Melta (both big and small). Sister were first models to sport heavy weapons fired from the hip, back when Marines carried theirs on their shoulders and Guard shot theirs from carriages. Sister fluff had their versions as lighter, smaller built.

SJ

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, you are wrong about 40k not having armor with environmental functions.

No, you just misunderstood him. He said the rules ignores the various environmental function that the fluff gives to armor. There is no rule that represent all the rebreathers and vacuum-sealed and everything, to the point that stupid idiotic things like marines/sisters/tau with helmets can be blinded by light despite
“Photolenses: Protect the Space Marine from light bursts and allow him to see in the infrared and ultraviolet spectrum's as well as enable vision in low-light conditions.”
“In addition to a comm-link and rebreather unit for limited operation in a total vacuum, the [Sabbat pattern] helmet includes full-spectrum filtering and psycho-oculal buffering to assist the (less physically durable) human mind from being rendered insensible by battlefield conditions.”

 Mr Morden wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wouldn't Stormtroopers in 40k stats be something like:

WS3, BS4(*), S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD8, Armour 4+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Usual upgrades for heavier Blasters, E-web, Scouts etc?
They seem to be well trained and disciplined and are noted good shots (!) with reasonable armour which has environmental functions (which 40k ignores for all armies)

(*) being generous here

A Rebel would be:

WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD7, Armour 5+
Blaster Pistol: Range 18", S3, AP5, Assault 2,
Blaster Rifle: Range 24", S3 AP5, Rapid Fire

Yeah, that sounds about right.
Also, you are wrong about 40k not having armor with environmental functions.

Powered Armor can be used in a vacuum, and can survive harsh conditions.

IG soldiers are given helmets with rebreathers, and though it is not represented on the table top, there is are variants of flak armor desiged for environmental conditions.

Carapace Armor, particularly that worn by Stormtroopers, have a pressurized variant for ship combat.

Sorry I meant that the environmental and sensor elements of the various armours never comes up in 40k rules - even the bits that should do like Night Fighting / Blind weapons etc

Oh, in the rules they never pop up. They do in the background though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, you are wrong about 40k not having armor with environmental functions.

No, you just misunderstood him. He said the rules ignores the various environmental function that the fluff gives to armor. There is no rule that represent all the rebreathers and vacuum-sealed and everything, to the point that stupid idiotic things like marines/sisters/tau with helmets can be blinded by light despite
“Photolenses: Protect the Space Marine from light bursts and allow him to see in the infrared and ultraviolet spectrum's as well as enable vision in low-light conditions.”
“In addition to a comm-link and rebreather unit for limited operation in a total vacuum, the [Sabbat pattern] helmet includes full-spectrum filtering and psycho-oculal buffering to assist the (less physically durable) human mind from being rendered insensible by battlefield conditions.”

Yeah, he clarified that.
That is pretty dumb. There's also a noticeable lack of night vision in the game, despite powered armor helmets and stormtrooper helmets apparently having that function built in.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Sister don't tote tank weapons.

Made for tanks. Require two men to carry them around.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.

But Sororitas armor IS an armored exoskeleton. It allows the wearer to shoot from the hip weapons that are made for tanks, and that requires two very trained men without armor to just carry (and they set it on the ground when they want to shoot it).

What fiction are you reading? Sister don't tote tank weapons. They tote the holy trinity of the Bolter, the Flamer, and the Melta (both big and small). Sister were first models to sport heavy weapons fired from the hip, back when Marines carried theirs on their shoulders and Guard shot theirs from carriages. Sister fluff had their versions as lighter, smaller built.

SJ

In the rules they do.
They may be a lighter version, buts its still heavier than what a couple of un-powered armored humans can carry.

Scenario 1: 1 Assault Marine vs. 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Guards

Palpatine's Guard

Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos

50/50

Scenario 3: 1 Astartes Assault Squad vs. 10 Emperor's Guards

equipped how?

Scenario 4: 1 Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Knight

Jedi

Scenario 5: 1 Chief Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Master

Jedi

Scenario 6: Full-strength Genesis Space Marine Chapter versus 501st Clone Legion

50/50

Scenario 7: Imperial Guard (40k) vs. Imperial Army (SW)

I'll leave this as a 50/50 since composition of each army everything

Scenario 8: Imperial Sector Group (SW) vs. Sector Battlefleet (40k)

SW Imperial Fleet

Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire

IOM, the diversity of aliens in SW is very high Humans are not in the same number as in IOM

Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k

Star Wars

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.

But Sororitas armor IS an armored exoskeleton. It allows the wearer to shoot from the hip weapons that are made for tanks, and that requires two very trained men without armor to just carry (and they set it on the ground when they want to shoot it).

What fiction are you reading? Sister don't tote tank weapons. They tote the holy trinity of the Bolter, the Flamer, and the Melta (both big and small). Sister were first models to sport heavy weapons fired from the hip, back when Marines carried theirs on their shoulders and Guard shot theirs from carriages. Sister fluff had their versions as lighter, smaller built.

SJ

Nope - as others have said - Sisters carry heavy weapons on their own due to their power armour - its always been the case and remains so.

Where in the Sororitas fluff does it say that the Heavy Bolters etc are smaller lighter build? Some huge powerful Guard can also carry it unaided but its incredibly rare

Where the Sororitas loose out is there lack of the black carapace and the direct interaction with the armour - this coupled with their "just" human frames accounts for their lower S and T and I.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:


Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k

Star Wars

Oh really? Please explain how the SW factions can deal with the Eldar and the Necrons constant bending of the laws of physics, the endless number of Orks and Tyranids, and demons?

A Heavy Bolter is the equivalent of a Squad Assault Weapon, or an M60 Machinegun, both of which require only one person to carry but have a team to carry all the ammo and spare barrels. The SAW was made to be fired by one person, and the M60E can be fired just like an AR15. Even in the Guard books, their Heavy Bolters can be carried by one person, when not mounted to a carriage. The Heavy Bolter is a bad example, if that's what you think of as a tank weapon.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A Heavy Bolter is the equivalent of a Squad Assault Weapon, or an M60 Machinegun, both of which require only one person to carry but have a team to carry all the ammo and spare barrels. The SAW was made to be fired by one person, and the M60E can be fired just like an AR15. Even in the Guard books, their Heavy Bolters can be carried by one person, when not mounted to a carriage. The Heavy Bolter is a bad example, if that's what you think of as a tank weapon.

SJ

It really isn't .
The Heavy Bolter is closer to an automatic grenade launcher.
A heavy stubber is more like a SAW.

A SAW fires 5.56mm rounds.
A Heavy Bolter fires .998 delayed explosive rounds.

A Heavy Bolter is a little under half the size of a human.
The SAW is considerably smaller.

Unless there is some sort of plus size SAW out there, I think you may be mistaken in your comparison.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A Heavy Bolter is the equivalent of a Squad Assault Weapon, or an M60 Machinegun, both of which require only one person to carry but have a team to carry all the ammo and spare barrels. The SAW was made to be fired by one person, and the M60E can be fired just like an AR15. Even in the Guard books, their Heavy Bolters can be carried by one person, when not mounted to a carriage. The Heavy Bolter is a bad example, if that's what you think of as a tank weapon.

SJ

Nah the Heavy Bolter is closer (but bigger than) to the .50 cal Browning in WWII - it is designed to be a vehicle mounted weapon and for use by power armoured warriors of the Imperium - recently it has been added as a multicrew, tripod mounted support weapon.

It is only used in combat by exceptional members of the Astara M usch as Sgt Harker - who also has S4........... its also a Heavy Support weapon because to the AM thats what it is....

Again curious as to your specific statement that the heavy wepaons carried by the Sororitas are smaller? Is there a an actual reference in GW material?

Going back to working out who would win in a fight - i'd add

Jedi Knight

WS5, BS5, S3, T3, W2, I5, A3, LD10, Armour - / 4++
Light Saber, Close Combat Weapon, AP2, rending,
Telekentics Range 16", S4, AP6, Assault D6,

They are quick and deadly but best in close combat......

Bolts are cased self-propelled grenades, were the case launches the round far enough away from the shooter to avoid backblast as its rocket kicks in. It should have less recoil than a shotgun. As to weight to the Bolter, its built from the same high tech, light weight ceramite as power armor.

Of the weapons available to Sisters with the greatest recoil, it's the Heavy Flamer. Flame Thowers are rockets you have to hold still while panning it's exhaust over an area during a brief burst. The Heavy Flamer is an Assault weapon crewed by a single person, and is the exact same size and mass as a Heavy Bolter.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Bolts are cased self-propelled grenades, were the case launches the round far enough away from the shooter to avoid backblast as its rocket kicks in. It should have less recoil than a shotgun. As to weight to the Bolter, its built from the same high tech, light weight ceramite as power armor.

Of the weapons available to Sisters with the greatest recoil, it's the Heavy Flamer. Flame Thowers are rockets you have to hold still while panning it's exhaust over an area during a brief burst. The Heavy Flamer is an Assault weapon crewed by a single person, and is the exact same size and mass as a Heavy Bolter.

SJ

40k fluff has always been about Heavy Bolters being big and heavy - that's the fluff - that's why its such a big deal that men like Bragg and Harker can fire on their own

Bolters have huge recoil - again that's the fluff - it might not make "sense" and you can ignore it if you like but then you are not talking about 40K bolters..................#

Again still curious about your sources -

its built from the same high tech, light weight ceramite as power armour

. Is that in a Codex or other GW publication?

In Rogue Trader, where the Bolter was first introduced, it was caseless and recoiless, designed to be use in micro gravity and based on the gyrojet that was in the news as a future of space warfare when GW was young. This of course was back when Space Marines were Marines in Space. However, as with many things, an artist draw a Space Marine leaning into the Bolter as he fired it, with spent cases flying from the ejector port. Drawing got publish, set a standard, and gone were the days when Space Marines fought in space as actual Marines.

Now, we have discussions on the interwebs about whether or not an a woman can fire a Heavy Bolter on her own without an Astartes level exoskeleton as why of refuting whether or not Stormtrooper armor counts as powered armor (be it one without a powered exoskeleton). Joy.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
In Rogue Trader, where the Bolter was first introduced, it was caseless and recoiless, designed to be use in micro gravity and based on the gyrojet that was in the news as a future of space warfare when GW was young. This of course was back when Space Marines were Marines in Space. However, as with many things, an artist draw a Space Marine leaning into the Bolter as he fired it, with spent cases flying from the ejector port. Drawing got publish, set a standard, and gone were the days when Space Marines fought in space as actual Marines.

Now, we have discussions on the interwebs about whether or not an a woman can fire a Heavy Bolter on her own without an Astartes level exoskeleton as why of refuting whether or not Stormtrooper armor counts as powered armor (be it one without a powered exoskeleton). Joy.

SJ

Leafing through my copy of Rogue Trader as interested

Bolt gun entry:

The Bolt gun, also known as the bolter or blaster, fires small bolts or shells having explosive or armour piercing tips. Bolt guns are popular with pirates and criminals as they make a loud, violent and suitably satisfying noise.

Heavy Bolter (Emphasis mine):

The heavy Bolter or heavy blaster is a heavy version of the basic bolter and fires a burst of explosive bolts. Although the weapon is heavy and rather slow to use, the weapon is very effective at laying down a curtain of fire

I can't see reference to recoiless - although I certainly agree the drawings all appear to be without ammo ejection

Of course in those days the Sisterhood monitored maintained a close eye on the Astartes

and all servants of the Imperium. No one is free from their vigilance

Also amusingly there were more depictions of women in RT than you will find in current non BL GW publications.

The powered armour did not provide strength boost per see but merely removed the movement penalty that would be incurred if the armour was not powered.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
These debates always come down to two factors, 1) the unimaginable numbers 40k possesses and the vastly better fleet that star wars has.

True, but the debate should come down to "can 40K universe coordinate enough to mass their flotillas in groups large enough to repel faster and better coordinated assaults, and win before the SW universe develops effective counters (because thinking outside the box isn't heresy unless you are a special case) to 40K's unimaginable numbers.

If 40K can coordinate an effective crusade and win within a couple of decades, they have it. If SW can use it's advantages to drag things out for 20 or 30 years, I see them having no problems developing weapons and making enough of them to deal with the IoM threat.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.

But Sororitas armor IS an armored exoskeleton. It allows the wearer to shoot from the hip weapons that are made for tanks, and that requires two very trained men without armor to just carry (and they set it on the ground when they want to shoot it).

What fiction are you reading? Sister don't tote tank weapons. They tote the holy trinity of the Bolter, the Flamer, and the Melta (both big and small). Sister were first models to sport heavy weapons fired from the hip, back when Marines carried theirs on their shoulders and Guard shot theirs from carriages. Sister fluff had their versions as lighter, smaller built.

SJ

The Heavy Bolter and the Multi-Melta are normally sponson or pintle-mounted weapons on vehicles. When used by the IG, the Heavy Bolter is a crew-served weapon carried by a team of two to five men. A Sister totes it (and its ammo supply) by herself.

Scenario 1 & 3
I have not seen enough guards in battle

Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos
Clones all have B1 lasblasters even IG gurdsmen should be able to win form them

Scenario 4: 1 Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Knight
Turn1 A. Jedi walks and draws his sword
Turn 1B Librian shoots its combi melta's and witchfires the jedi.-> The jedi tries to deflect one of them and dies horribly.


Scenario 5: 1 Chief Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Master
Depends on their skill lv.

Scenario 6: Full-strength Genesis Space Marine Chapter 501st Clone Legion
More BS1 lasblaster cloners vs more marines. Always bet on the BS4 bolter dudes in better armour

Scenario 7: Imperial Guard (40k) vs. Imperial Army (SW)
No idea it all depends on their space ships. The star wars empire does know truly understands their ships, but they do have horrible design ideas.
The 40 empire does have access to nastier technology but does have no idea on how to use it correctly. I don't have any idea who has a bigger fleet.

Scenario 8:] Imperial Sector Group vs. Sector Battlefleet (40k)
Same as above

Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire
Imperium of man hands down. The Galactic empire can't even get their one and only super weapon right. The Imperium of man has all kinds of nasty stuff and non of it suffers from Xwing sized ventilation shafts.

Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k
All Factions of starwars combined are completely outclassed by outclassed by most of the single 40k factions.
The Tyranid, Eldar, chaos or Ork faction alone would just be enough to get rid of them all.

*Bonus Round: Jedi Master Yoda (in his Prime) vs. Magnus the Red (pre-Daemonhood)
Yoda -> He has more plot armour. Magnus the Red is just some sith nobody will remember 10 years later

EDIT: Spoilered wall of text

Starwars troopers might have a good aim but they suffer from the not willing to shoot the enemy / not willing to kill humans in the movies. So sure they have a good aim but as long as the marines don't wear their helmets the troopers might as well have BS1.

The ground war thingy.
The thing is, starships are not there for their transport capacities they are there to lance the opponents army from orbit. The impact of pure trooper vs troopers will be completely insignificant compared to the heavy artillery of the space ships in a war. Sure you can capture cities etc. But the IoM does not care about the civilians they are all heretics that need to die.

then you failed to have grasped the simple fact that can't construct and maintain Starships without understanding the technology behind them

This is exactly what the imperium does. They do construct and maintain starships without understanding the technology. Thats the whole reason why the Imperium of man has such sub optimal technology usage.
You might want to read the foundation if you want to know how this is possible

I would argue that the Blaster Weapons are more equivalent to Pulse Rifles, in terms of firepower (ie, not S3).

you could argue that. But it is more likely that GW just stole las blasters from starwars or a common source. There is no reason at all to assume that GW invented their own weaker version of the common Syfi laser blaster.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Starwars troopers might have a good aim but they suffer from the not willing to shoot the enemy / not willing to kill humans in the movies. So sure they have a good aim but as long as the marines don't wear their helmets the troopers might as well have BS1.

I suggest you re-watch the beginning of A New Hope where a number of stormtroopers charging into a narrow breach into heavy fire, yet they are able to gun down more rebel soldiers in cover than they take in casualties! This is not amateur night here--this is stone cold killers, destroying their foes mercilessly. They are so effective that the defenders fall back almost immediately.

 Happyjew wrote:
I suggest you re-watch the beginning of A New Hope where a number of stormtroopers charging into a narrow breach into heavy fire, yet they are able to gun down more rebel soldiers in cover than they take in casualties! This is not amateur night here--this is stone cold killers, destroying their foes mercilessly. They are so effective that the defenders fall back almost immediately.

Exactly. The whole "stormtroopers can't hit anything" myth comes up because they spend most of their time shooting at main characters. And, just like in virtually ever movie where main characters get shot at, they have terrible accuracy until a main character needs to be hit for plot reasons.

oldzoggy wrote:Starwars troopers might have a good aim but they suffer from the not willing to shoot the enemy / not willing to kill humans in the movies. So sure they have a good aim but as long as the marines don't wear their helmets the troopers might as well have BS1.

The ground war thingy.
The thing is, starships are not there for their transport capacities they are there to lance the opponents army from orbit. The impact of pure trooper vs troopers will be completely insignificant compared to the heavy artillery of the space ships in a war. Sure you can capture cities etc. But the IoM does not care about the civilians they are all heretics that need to die.

In said Scenario, it is pure Ground v. Ground (ie no Void Superiority). Make it an assumption that the Fleets are otherwise occupied blowing eachother out of the sky while the Clone Troopers are fighting the Marines

then you failed to have grasped the simple fact that can't construct and maintain Starships without understanding the technology behind them

This is exactly what the imperium does. They do construct and maintain starships without understanding the technology. Thats the whole reason why the Imperium of man has such sub optimal technology usage.
You might want to read the foundation if you want to know how this is possible

the specific scenarios aside,

that ultramarine movie was horrendous. star wars wins in a landslide there, even accounting for the second set of movies...

You cannot design a Space Craft if you don't understand the science behind, it just doesn't work like that. If you don't understand the science behind, then you can't balance armaments, mass, life support systems, reactors, and a host of other complex factors without causing catastrophic meltdowns every time you build a prototype.

You can but it will not work that well, in fact this is an important part of the 40k setting.
40k suffers form technological regression. They do have building plans in the form of sacred rituals that are passed down and preserved for thousands of years but most of the science behind it is long lost and forgotten. Designing new ships in 40k is just being creative and patching those plans together. The methods of science in 40k aren't close to the methods of today. Science of 40k is like the pre enlightenment science based on authority of the great minds of the past rather then empirical research. Needless to say this doesn't result in the most optimal building plans.

Sources
GW: Mechanicum (Novel) Koriel Zeth is one of the only few (loyalist) Adepts on mars who actually was actually trying to understand the science behind it and innovate. The rest was just following tradition. This was in the golden age of 30k. Now imagine what those next 10k years of technological regression and strict dogma would do to the knowledge.

Asimov: The foundation.
Go and read it this is what GW based their tech cult on

Fantasy flight, Dark herecy: Edge of darkness.
The logicians based their science of logic and deduction instead of authority this made them heretics.
More sources are found here:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Heretek




Automatically Appended Next Post:

In said Scenario, it is pure Ground v. Ground (ie no Void Superiority). Make it an assumption that the Fleets are otherwise occupied blowing eachother out of the sky while the Clone Troopers are fighting the Marines

Lets continue that reasoning.

-Fleets fight it out in space
-Ground forces battle for the planet

This results in
- Ground is controlled by the same faction as space
or
-Ground is not controlled by the same faction as space

Now lets go forward from here.
If the faction controls space and the planet that faction wins.
If the faction controls space but not the planet it will bombard it until there is no resistance left.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A Heavy Bolter is the equivalent of a Squad Assault Weapon, or an M60 Machinegun, both of which require only one person to carry but have a team to carry all the ammo and spare barrels. The SAW was made to be fired by one person, and the M60E can be fired just like an AR15. Even in the Guard books, their Heavy Bolters can be carried by one person, when not mounted to a carriage. The Heavy Bolter is a bad example, if that's what you think of as a tank weapon.

SJ

Laughably wrong. The Heavy Bolter fires a 1.0 caliber shell. That's, you know, twice the size of the round fired by the M-2 Browning.... which was also a crew-served weapon when it was carried by infantrymen.