Star Wars vs. Warhammer 40k

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**Psienesis**

dusara217 wrote:
I know, I know, there is already a thread for this. However, the terms for it are extremely ambiguous, and thus I am creating a different one with very specific scenarios that will more accurately compare the two Universes, and shouldn't take more than a dozen freaking pages of argument that take an age and a half to comb through. This is intended to be very cut-and-dry, with the factors in favor of each side listed and a victor decided based upon them. No feats will be factored into this, as, in one book, you have an ordinary Space Marine severing a fully-armoured Custodes's spinal cord with a single punch, and, in the next, a Space Marine can't even punch through Flak Armour (hyperbole, ftw). Extended Universe is included in this. So, here are the scenarios:
Scenario 1: 1 Assault Marine vs. 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Guards

Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos

Scenario 3: 1 Astartes Assault Squad vs. 10 Emperor's Guards

Scenario 4: 1 Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Knight

Scenario 5: 1 Chief Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Master

Scenario 6: Full-strength Genesis Space Marine Chapter versus 501st Clone Legion

Scenario 7: Imperial Guard (40k) vs. Imperial Army (SW)

Scenario 8: Imperial Sector Group (SW) vs. Sector Battlefleet (40k)

Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire

Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k

*Bonus Round: Jedi Master Yoda (in his Prime) vs. Magnus the Red (pre-Daemonhood)
All of the above scenarios assume that getting into the action is not an issue (ie Genesis Chapter and 501st are fighting a ground war on a planet, Void ships are not a part of it. In the Fleet engagement, this is within a single Star System, or fully mapped Star Cluster within 40k). In Scenarios 9, let's just assume that the battles are taking place inside of a Sector (200 square Lightyears) that has a mini-Astronomican at its heart (along the lines of what Guilliman used in Unremembered Empire) as a navigational aid, and the Sector is fully mapped out by the Galactic Empire. The entirety of military forces on each side will be used in this Sector. In Scenario 10, let's assume that the SW Universe is invading the 40k Universe, and already has accurate Star Charts of 40k's Milky Way Galaxy.

This thread is intended to be a very controlled debate, in which each side's pros and cons are laid bare for all to see. It is intended that neither side be given an unfair advantage (ie, IoM getting an inordinate amount of Fortress Worlds, or Forge Worlds)

EDIT: All scenarios involved make the following assumptions:
- People from the Star Wars Universe are affected by both the Warp and Midichlorians
- People from the 40k Universe are affected by both the Warp and Midichlorians
- The Warp and The Force do not interact in any way, outside of the following exceptions: Psychc Powers still affect Force Users, Force Powers still affect Psykers/Daemons, Daemons can interact with beings affected by the Force.

As Sith Lords go, Palpatine is a chump. He's a master manipulator, sure, but his Force Power is weaksauce compared to someone like Emperor Vitiate, or Exar Kun.

Scenario 1-3 goes to 40k, there are no standard ground forces in SW capable of defeating Space Marines
Scenarios #4 and #5 are far too dependent on individual abilities to call. What if the Librarian is just a Diviner and possesses no offensive Psychic Powers? What if it's a Jedi Healer, rather than one who possesses offensive focus in the Force? What's the species of the Jedi in question? If it is say, an Anzat, then the Librarian gets wtfclowned because these space-vampires are basically immune to physical damage, and will rip the arms off the Librarian and beat him to death with them before eating his brain (which the Anzat refer to as "soup"). What if the Master Jedi possesses some of the rarer Force techniques? Like the ones that can trap a mind in its own nightmares-turned-real? The Force is far more versatile than the lists of Psychic Disciplines available in 40k (even though even those are intended to be representative, not all-inclusive). There is also the risk of Perils to the Librarian, which the Jedi doesn't suffer.
Scenario #6 goes to the Space Marines.
Scenario #7 goes to the Imperial Guard of 40k, as they outnumber the Imperial Army of SW many times over. They can literally just drown them in bodies.
Scenario #8 goes to the Imperial Fleet, as they outnumber the 40k fleet 20 to 1, with superior shielding technology and weapons on-par with the standard ship-borne weapons of 40k.
Scenario #9 goes to the Imperium of Man, seeing that the Galactic Empire has very few people capable of combating the number of psykers the 40k Imperium can throw at it, not to mention the vast preponderance of militarization in 40k vs Star Wars.

Bonus Round: Magnus the Red, in a landslide. Even in his prime, Yoda is only an exceptionally-powerful Jedi for his era, not particularly powerful compared to the historic greats (Revan, Bastila, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, etc.). Magnus would blink and crush Yoda into paste.

Also, let us just put this debate to rest: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

Wookieepedia wrote:Lightsabers consisted of a plasma blade, powered by a kyber crystal[17] and emitted from a metallic hilt.[5]

**Psienesis**

Citation please? I don't recall any lightsabers in 40k, and there is no information afaik supporting that lightsabers and power weapons are similar. One is a plasma blade, the other is a metal blade wrapped in a disruptive field of some kind.

Sollex-pattern Power Sword, once carried by Inquisitor Eisenhorn. It's a powersword with no physical blade, just the matter-disrupting energy field. It's as close as one gets to a lightsaber in 40k.

**Psienesis**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.

But Sororitas armor IS an armored exoskeleton. It allows the wearer to shoot from the hip weapons that are made for tanks, and that requires two very trained men without armor to just carry (and they set it on the ground when they want to shoot it).

What fiction are you reading? Sister don't tote tank weapons. They tote the holy trinity of the Bolter, the Flamer, and the Melta (both big and small). Sister were first models to sport heavy weapons fired from the hip, back when Marines carried theirs on their shoulders and Guard shot theirs from carriages. Sister fluff had their versions as lighter, smaller built.

SJ

The Heavy Bolter and the Multi-Melta are normally sponson or pintle-mounted weapons on vehicles. When used by the IG, the Heavy Bolter is a crew-served weapon carried by a team of two to five men. A Sister totes it (and its ammo supply) by herself.

**Psienesis**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
A Heavy Bolter is the equivalent of a Squad Assault Weapon, or an M60 Machinegun, both of which require only one person to carry but have a team to carry all the ammo and spare barrels. The SAW was made to be fired by one person, and the M60E can be fired just like an AR15. Even in the Guard books, their Heavy Bolters can be carried by one person, when not mounted to a carriage. The Heavy Bolter is a bad example, if that's what you think of as a tank weapon.

SJ

Laughably wrong. The Heavy Bolter fires a 1.0 caliber shell. That's, you know, twice the size of the round fired by the M-2 Browning.... which was also a crew-served weapon when it was carried by infantrymen.

**Psienesis**

It isn't an equivalent, other than the term "squad assault weapon" (which is actually not a term). I believe you meant a SAW as in a Squad Automatic Weapon, but the rest of your equivalency falls apart when you start talking about how the M-60 is carried by one guy (an M-60 team is 2 people, the gunner and the assistant gunner, who carries the ammo-cans and feeds ammo into the weapon during operation). The only person in the Guard carrying a Heavy Bolter by himself is a singular character, Harker, who is noted for being an exceptionally huge dude.

**Psienesis**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
It isn't an equivalent, other than the term "squad assault weapon" (which is actually not a term). I believe you meant a SAW as in a Squad Automatic Weapon, but the rest of your equivalency falls apart when you start talking about how the M-60 is carried by one guy (an M-60 team is 2 people, the gunner and the assistant gunner, who carries the ammo-cans and feeds ammo into the weapon during operation). The only person in the Guard carrying a Heavy Bolter by himself is a singular character, Harker, who is noted for being an exceptionally huge dude.

Re-read your own post. I unlined the part where you prove my point.

SJ

Your "equivalency" is like saying a Baneblade is "equivalent" to a 1972 VW Microbus because they are both sort of blocky. The M60 *still* requires more than one person to operate it. The Heavy Bolter in the IG is found either vehicle-mounted or part of a five-man Heavy Weapons Team, apart from *one guy* in the entire Departmento Munitorum who can carry it by himself. A better example of equivalency would be comparing it to a Ma Deuce, where one guy carries the gun, one guy carries the tripod and an ammo-can, and three other guys carry two ammo-cans each, because at least we're getting into the same ball-park of round-weight and operational parameters.

The Heavy Bolter is a vehicle-mounted or crew-served weapon... unless we're talking about Space Marines or the Sisterhood, in which case it's lugged by one person.

**Psienesis**

Oh, you're using table-top stats for a fluff discussion. That tells me all I need to know.