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slamma wrote:
the specific scenarios aside,

that ultramarine movie was horrendous. star wars wins in a landslide there, even accounting for the second set of movies...

Money goes a long way
But yeah, the UM movie was crap.

 Psienesis wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A Heavy Bolter is the equivalent of a Squad Assault Weapon, or an M60 Machinegun, both of which require only one person to carry but have a team to carry all the ammo and spare barrels. The SAW was made to be fired by one person, and the M60E can be fired just like an AR15. Even in the Guard books, their Heavy Bolters can be carried by one person, when not mounted to a carriage. The Heavy Bolter is a bad example, if that's what you think of as a tank weapon.

SJ

Laughably wrong. The Heavy Bolter fires a 1.0 caliber shell. That's, you know, twice the size of the round fired by the M-2 Browning.... which was also a crew-served weapon when it was carried by infantrymen.

Please look up the word "equivalent" in a non-urban dictionary.

SJ

It isn't an equivalent, other than the term "squad assault weapon" (which is actually not a term). I believe you meant a SAW as in a Squad Automatic Weapon, but the rest of your equivalency falls apart when you start talking about how the M-60 is carried by one guy (an M-60 team is 2 people, the gunner and the assistant gunner, who carries the ammo-cans and feeds ammo into the weapon during operation). The only person in the Guard carrying a Heavy Bolter by himself is a singular character, Harker, who is noted for being an exceptionally huge dude.

 Psienesis wrote:
It isn't an equivalent, other than the term "squad assault weapon" (which is actually not a term). I believe you meant a SAW as in a Squad Automatic Weapon, but the rest of your equivalency falls apart when you start talking about how the M-60 is carried by one guy (an M-60 team is 2 people, the gunner and the assistant gunner, who carries the ammo-cans and feeds ammo into the weapon during operation). The only person in the Guard carrying a Heavy Bolter by himself is a singular character, Harker, who is noted for being an exceptionally huge dude.

Re-read your own post. I unlined the part where you prove my point.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It isn't an equivalent, other than the term "squad assault weapon" (which is actually not a term). I believe you meant a SAW as in a Squad Automatic Weapon, but the rest of your equivalency falls apart when you start talking about how the M-60 is carried by one guy (an M-60 team is 2 people, the gunner and the assistant gunner, who carries the ammo-cans and feeds ammo into the weapon during operation). The only person in the Guard carrying a Heavy Bolter by himself is a singular character, Harker, who is noted for being an exceptionally huge dude.

Re-read your own post. I unlined the part where you prove my point.

SJ

Your "equivalency" is like saying a Baneblade is "equivalent" to a 1972 VW Microbus because they are both sort of blocky. The M60 *still* requires more than one person to operate it. The Heavy Bolter in the IG is found either vehicle-mounted or part of a five-man Heavy Weapons Team, apart from *one guy* in the entire Departmento Munitorum who can carry it by himself. A better example of equivalency would be comparing it to a Ma Deuce, where one guy carries the gun, one guy carries the tripod and an ammo-can, and three other guys carry two ammo-cans each, because at least we're getting into the same ball-park of round-weight and operational parameters.

The Heavy Bolter is a vehicle-mounted or crew-served weapon... unless we're talking about Space Marines or the Sisterhood, in which case it's lugged by one person.

 Psienesis wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It isn't an equivalent, other than the term "squad assault weapon" (which is actually not a term). I believe you meant a SAW as in a Squad Automatic Weapon, but the rest of your equivalency falls apart when you start talking about how the M-60 is carried by one guy (an M-60 team is 2 people, the gunner and the assistant gunner, who carries the ammo-cans and feeds ammo into the weapon during operation). The only person in the Guard carrying a Heavy Bolter by himself is a singular character, Harker, who is noted for being an exceptionally huge dude.

Re-read your own post. I unlined the part where you prove my point.

SJ

Your "equivalency" is like saying a Baneblade is "equivalent" to a 1972 VW Microbus because they are both sort of blocky. The M60 *still* requires more than one person to operate it. The Heavy Bolter in the IG is found either vehicle-mounted or part of a five-man Heavy Weapons Team, apart from *one guy* in the entire Departmento Munitorum who can carry it by himself. A better example of equivalency would be comparing it to a Ma Deuce, where one guy carries the gun, one guy carries the tripod and an ammo-can, and three other guys carry two ammo-cans each, because at least we're getting into the same ball-park of round-weight and operational parameters.

The Heavy Bolter is a vehicle-mounted or crew-served weapon... unless we're talking about Space Marines or the Sisterhood, in which case it's lugged by one person.

That's hyperbole. My "equivalency" is a bodygloved and plated shock toop in one story is similar to a bodygloved and plated shock troop in a different story because they are both plated, wearing bodygloves, and fulfilling the role a shock troopers. My "equivalency" is a sword covered in a power field is similar to a sword made out of a power field. My equivalency is a squad support weapon in one army fullfils the same role as a squad support weapon found in another army. When there are points of comparison, a comparison can be made.

SJ

ITT, people (or I guess a single person), posts completely dishonest nonsense.

Stormtrooper Armor, Plastoid, can be defeated by STONE AGE XENOS. SPEARS penetrated plastoid for chrissake, and the Ewoks were able to bludgeon Stormtroopers to death with rocks. That won't work on Carapace Armor worn by Veteran Guardsmen, let alone Sisters Power Armor which would make a Gendarme of France at the height of medieval plate armor fume in envy at something capable of walking off shots from 20mm autocannons.

Scenario 1: 1 Assault Marine vs. 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Guards

The Royal Guard lacks weapons capable of posing a threat to power armor besides possibly vibroblades. Stomp in the favor of the Astartes, a fair fight would be the force sensitive guys who tote lightsabers and wear black armor from the Force Unleashed.

Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos

Clone Commandos also lack weapons that will pose a threat to power armor, will get shredded pretty easily. Clone Commandos are basically just Veteran Guardsmen or Scions, only with worse weapons.

Scenario 3: 1 Astartes Assault Squad vs. 10 Emperor's Guards

Emperor's Guard murdered again.

Scenario 4: 1 Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Knight

Jedi Knights rarely use force powers offensively and even then nobody in Star Wars uses them so offensively that it would break their ratings. People get slapped around or crushed, but they don't get melted into slag or torn drawn and quartered telekinetically like psykers do.

Scenario 5: 1 Chief Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Master

Depends on the Jedi Master and the Librarian, and what sources we're using. Mace Windu from The Clone Wars 2d show by the same guy behind Samurai Jack would kill some Chief Librarians, but with some of the named Chief Librarians it will swing in the other direction.

Scenario 6: Full-strength Genesis Space Marine Chapter versus 501st Clone Legion

A Space Marine Chapter should curbstomp what is basically an Imperial Guard regiment with gakky vehicles. Stuff like the AT-TE make the Leman Russ look like a competent design.

Scenario 7: Imperial Guard (40k) vs. Imperial Army (SW)

Whoever shoots first and actually hits, but depending on the Guard Regiment this can swing either way. Because there's Guard Regiments that run around butt naked, and Guard Regiments that run around wearing plasteel and wielding artificer lasguns.

Scenario 8: Imperial Sector Group (SW) vs. Sector Battlefleet (40k)

Imperial Battle Group should get murdered. Star Wars ships fight at visual ranges at tens of kilometers, 40K fights at hundreds of thousands.

Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire

The Galactic Empire doesn't even have enough ships to make a dent. The Imperial Fleet at its height only had 25,000 Star Destroyers. Unless they drastically ramp up their fleet production, they wouldn't have a prayer.

Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k

Star Wars suffers the fate as a PDF Response. Orks alone already out number and probably outgun the entire Galactic Empire. Then you're adding the Necrons, whose ships can massacre entire Imperium fleets with a handful of ships along with inertialess drives, Chaos with infinite Daemonic Hordes and the ability to blow up stars, and the Tyranids. It would take a long time to kill/conquer an entire galaxy, but Star Wars is simply too small for the job.

Bonus Round: Jedi Master Yoda (in his Prime) vs. Magnus the Red (pre-Daemonhood)

Magnus can freeze time and kill Yoda with complete abandon. How do you think this would go down?

 Wyzilla wrote:
ITT, people (or I guess a single person), posts completely dishonest nonsense.

Stormtrooper Armor, Plastoid, can be defeated by STONE AGE XENOS. SPEARS penetrated plastoid for chrissake, and the Ewoks were able to bludgeon Stormtroopers to death with rocks. That won't work on Carapace Armor worn by Veteran Guardsmen, let alone Sisters Power Armor which would make a Gendarme of France at the height of medieval plate armor fume in envy at something capable of walking off shots from 20mm autocannons.

Astartes can be beaten to death with a rock, too. They only has a 3+ save, 2+ at best. Carapace armor is just a chest/back plate cuirass, with helm and grieves, not much different than Stormtrooper armor, except for the lack a bodyglove and integrated lifesupport and electronics. Add those in and you get Sororitas armor. Your examples are again closer to hyperbole than equivalency.

SJ

Oh, you're using table-top stats for a fluff discussion. That tells me all I need to know.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
ITT, people (or I guess a single person), posts completely dishonest nonsense.

Stormtrooper Armor, Plastoid, can be defeated by STONE AGE XENOS. SPEARS penetrated plastoid for chrissake, and the Ewoks were able to bludgeon Stormtroopers to death with rocks. That won't work on Carapace Armor worn by Veteran Guardsmen, let alone Sisters Power Armor which would make a Gendarme of France at the height of medieval plate armor fume in envy at something capable of walking off shots from 20mm autocannons.

Astartes can be beaten to death with a rock, too. They only has a 3+ save, 2+ at best. Carapace armor is just a chest/back plate cuirass, with helm and grieves, not much different than Stormtrooper armor, except for the lack a bodyglove and integrated lifesupport and electronics. Add those in and you get Sororitas armor. Your examples are again closer to hyperbole than equivalency.

SJ

Ok so are you concentrating on fluff or tabletop stats? Very different things......

hmm - I am not sure that a Astartes has been beaten to death with a rock before - might be wrong..............another Astartes or other superhuman could do it of course or a mob might be able to do something I guess but its unlikely. The whole Ewoks thing was plot driven and did seem to make a mockery of the Stormtroopers.......

You need to look back at any Codex or hey back at Rogue Trader to see how different power armour is to the conventional armours. its highly unlikely the blunt trauma of sticks and stones would even penetrate.

The comparison to the best plate armour is valid - except with one important difference - power armour removes the problem of weight and mobility.

Put it this way, back in RT, a bow and arrow gave you a +1 to your armour save (most weapons were negative armour save modifiers).

But marines had a 4+ at that point.

 Wyzilla wrote:
ITT, people (or I guess a single person), posts completely dishonest nonsense.

Stormtrooper Armor, Plastoid, can be defeated by STONE AGE XENOS. SPEARS penetrated plastoid for chrissake, and the Ewoks were able to bludgeon Stormtroopers to death with rocks. That won't work on Carapace Armor worn by Veteran Guardsmen, let alone Sisters Power Armor which would make a Gendarme of France at the height of medieval plate armor fume in envy at something capable of walking off shots from 20mm autocannons.

A stormtrooper's body armour capabilities are very impressive. According to the Star Wars Visual Dictonary, the hardened white shell is virtually immune to corrosion (very important considering the fact that corrosive gas grenades exist), and it can resist any hand-held projectile weapons. In fact, we learned in "Rebel Dawn" that stormtrooper armour is so well made that it commands a high price on the black market, which is why Han Solo was smuggling stolen armour for profit. Not once in any of the three original films did we see anything penetrate the hardened armour apart from a direct hit with a blaster bolt, although the rubberized flexible joint sections were obviously not quite so strong (numerous stormtroopers were killed by arrows to the flexible neck covering in ROTJ, and Leia killed one with a shrapnel hit to the wall behind him, taking advantage of that same small weak area). The novel "Lightsabres", from the Young Jedi Knights series, contains a sequence of events which helps demonstrate the mechanical strength of stormtrooper armour:

"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."
Qorl's droid used its superhuman strength to throw a spear with such great force that it lifted a man off his feet and hurled him against a nearby wall. It should be noted that we have no materials in real life that can be manufactured in lightweight thin plates and yet retain such strength against deformation or cracking. Moreover, no real-life assault rifle fires projectiles with anywhere near enough momentum to throw a man around like a rag doll, so this means that stormtrooper armour is basically impervious to present-day small-arms fire (not to mention the shrapnel that is ejected by anti-personnel weapons). A real-life soldier would have to score direct hits with concussion grenades or use a very heavy tripod-mounted gun in order to kill a stormtrooper through his armour (contrast this with Federation soldiers, whose pajamas wouldn't be of much use against an M-16). Blaster bolts are much too powerful to block, but by blocking shrapnel, a stormtrooper's armour ensures that the enemy must score a direct hit in order to kill the man inside.

Scenario 1: 1 Assault Marine vs. 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Guards

The Royal Guard lacks weapons capable of posing a threat to power armor besides possibly vibroblades. Stomp in the favor of the Astartes, a fair fight would be the force sensitive guys who tote lightsabers and wear black armor from the Force Unleashed.

Considering that a force pike is a vibroblade we still have no idea how it would interact with Astartes power armour.

Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos

Clone Commandos also lack weapons that will pose a threat to power armor, will get shredded pretty easily. Clone Commandos are basically just Veteran Guardsmen or Scions, only with worse weapons.

I've no idea what weapons the clone commandos wielded. So I'll leave this one for now.

And...I'll come back later. Work calls.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That's hyperbole. My "equivalency" is a bodygloved and plated shock toop in one story is similar to a bodygloved and plated shock troop in a different story because they are both plated, wearing bodygloves, and fulfilling the role a shock troopers.

That's not my point. You implied that the Sisters of Battle had no strength augmentation from the armor while the Space Marines had. This is just not true.

An Astartes can be beaten to death with a rock because Astartes armor does not remove inertia. Sufficient repeated impacts will concuss and eventual kill anyone, including a Space Marine in powered armor. Stating that you cannot kill an Astartes in armor with a rock is to ignore basic physics.

As to Sororitas armor:

ARMOUR
Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Adepta Sororitas (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2014-06-24. iBooks.

I underlined the part you keep ignoring.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I underlined the part you keep ignoring.

They have to forgo the more advanced abilities. That does not mean that their armor do not enhance their strength, just to a lesser degree. And there are numerous sources that state the armor does enhance their strength. And have you ever looked at the arms of the Sisters with heavy bolter?

@Wyzilla:

I'm reading your post about the inadequacies of Star Wars technology and while I agree that 40k has the advantage in a ground war, I have to give my head a shake at a number of your assertions... (Keep in mind, if I'm not commenting, I'm not dissenting. e.g. the Royal Guard are terrible and shouldn't even be considered worthy foes. A Jedi is at a disadvantage vs a Librarian and, Astartes Chapter vs Legion is a horrible mismatch - should never have been even raised, considering the chapter's space/air assets compared to the Legion's lack of space assets):

1. While power armor MIGHT well be impervious to SOME blunt force trauma via rocks, I highly doubt carapace armor would be invincible as you claim. It is not reinforced and any blunt force would be transferred to the wearer. The joints are also unarmored, meaning that melee weapons, stone or not, can kill and maim a wearer of carapace armor.

2. Regarding power armored troops being able to survive autocannon fire: Yes, this is possible. It is also more likely possible that the 20mm round leaves the wearer a bloody heap on the battlefield. There are immeasurable instances of LASGUNS and AUTOGUNS defeating powered armor opponents in the form of Chaos Marines. Considering that the Traitor Legions are wearing full-on Astartes Power Armor. I think since most participants in this debate would concede that blasters are at least equivalent to lasguns, I would not consider power armored troops to be invulnerable to blaster fire. Well protected, yes, but hardly invulnerable. In fact, if an unhelmeted space marine took a blaster shot to the face, I would fully expect him to die, power armor non-withstanding.

2b. Regarding clone troopers not having sufficient firepower to kill marines - Even if you cling to the idea that blasters are totally useless vs power armor: clone trooper regiments also have heavy blaster troopers and anti-material equipped teams. I'm sure thermal detonators and other such ordinance would also be effective vs. power armor. To outright say that they have no weapons that would be able to injure a power armored combatant is a real stretch.

3. On Sector Fleet vs Sector Fleet: I am going to disagree with the assertion that 40k wins on the back of greater weapon range. Given comparable weaponry and the ability of the Empire to drop from lightspeed into their preferred range - I don't think range is as large an advantage as you suggest. The outcome is the same however - Sector fleet vs Sector fleet is a terrible match, considering that 40k sectors are MAGNITUDES larger and can easily win due to strength of numbers.

4. I believe that on IoM vs the Empire - if it turns into a protracted battle, the Empire might win on the basis of superior speed, recon, coordination and new technology/tactics developed to counter the attack. In a straight up fight where you just put all the manpower of each faction in one spot - the Empire would lose handily, but if they trade territory for time - they stand a pretty good chance of emerging the victors. As I noted in the IoM vs Empire thread, the territories of each faction are gigantic. The Empire definitely has the faster and more reliable way of traversing these distances, where as the IoM is forced to advance at a slower pace. There are many empty sectors of space, which may allow the Empire to move production deeper into their territory much like how Russia defended against the technologically more advanced Germans in WWII. This also occurred several times in the Extended Universe where the defenders pulled back slowly to the core worlds while figuring out new technologies and techniques to defeat an invader from beyond the outer rim. IMHO, Not a curb-stomp by any stretch.

4b. -edit- The IoM will also have a problem as it has a tendency to stop at every planet EXTERMINATUS all the XENOS... this is going to hurt their supply lines and be an increasing problem the deeper into Empire territory they go. It doesn't matter how huge the IoM's numbers if their supply lines get severed. Everyone's still got to eat/drink.

5. On a Universe vs Universe level: I have to disagree again: It is extremely unlikely that the differing factions in 40k would set aside their differences to fight as a cohesive whole, where as in Star Wars, the various factions actually united in the Extended Universe when faced with a threat from beyond their territory. In fact, I can see any 40k coalition immediately degenerating into a mess as soon as the first planet is defeated. The IoM would either want exterminatus of xenos or conversion to the Imperial Cult, Chaos wants to convert the inhabitants to Chaos Cult - the Tyranids would want to NOM everything, the Necrons want to kill 'em all, Orks are like, whatever and the Eldar are probably just sitting on the sidelines not exhausting their precious forces. Hypothetically speaking, if they were able to combine - sure, It'd be a slaughter - however, I think its painfully obvious that they can't work together.