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I know, I know, there is already a thread for this. However, the terms for it are extremely ambiguous, and thus I am creating a different one with very specific scenarios that will more accurately compare the two Universes, and shouldn't take more than a dozen freaking pages of argument that take an age and a half to comb through. This is intended to be very cut-and-dry, with the factors in favor of each side listed and a victor decided based upon them. No feats will be factored into this, as, in one book, you have an ordinary Space Marine severing a fully-armoured Custodes's spinal cord with a single punch, and, in the next, a Space Marine can't even punch through Flak Armour (hyperbole, ftw). Extended Universe is included in this. So, here are the scenarios:
Scenario 1: 1 Assault Marine vs. 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Guards
Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos
Scenario 3: 1 Astartes Assault Squad vs. 10 Emperor's Guards
Scenario 4: 1 Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Knight
Scenario 5: 1 Chief Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Master
Scenario 6: Full-strength Genesis Space Marine Chapter versus 501st Clone Legion
Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire
Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k
*Bonus Round: Jedi Master Yoda (in his Prime) vs. Magnus the Red (pre-Daemonhood)
All of the above scenarios assume that getting into the action is not an issue (ie Genesis Chapter and 501st are fighting a ground war on a planet, Void ships are not a part of it. In the Fleet engagement, this is within a single Star System, or fully mapped Star Cluster within 40k). In Scenarios 9, let's just assume that the battles are taking place inside of a Sector (200 square Lightyears) that has a mini-Astronomican at its heart (along the lines of what Guilliman used in Unremembered Empire) as a navigational aid, and the Sector is fully mapped out by the Galactic Empire. The entirety of military forces on each side will be used in this Sector. In Scenario 10, let's assume that the SW Universe is invading the 40k Universe, and already has accurate Star Charts of 40k's Milky Way Galaxy.
This thread is intended to be a very controlled debate, in which each side's pros and cons are laid bare for all to see. It is intended that neither side be given an unfair advantage (ie, IoM getting an inordinate amount of Fortress Worlds, or Forge Worlds)
EDIT: All scenarios involved make the following assumptions:
- People from the Star Wars Universe are affected by both the Warp and Midichlorians
- People from the 40k Universe are affected by both the Warp and Midichlorians
- The Warp and The Force do not interact in any way, outside of the following exceptions: Psychc Powers still affect Force Users, Force Powers still affect Psykers/Daemons, Daemons can interact with beings affected by the Force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 00:47:06
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Glorified warriors and mystics are nothing compared to the power of the dark side. At the height of his power in the expanded universe (now legends) Palpatine and the Empire would crush the entire 40k universe. This is due to one simple fact. The rule of two. Each Sith must be stronger than the last, and are birthed in a crucible of war, power, and survival. Palpatines powers were so great it is said he could influence the minds of the entire galaxy and depress them into inaction and fear of retribution due to his presence alone. Even Luke stood no chance until Vader saved him. It is said as he become more and more powerful as a Sith he could create new force powers at a whim, and his spirit had to be locked away by the force spirits of all the Jedi to have ever lived and guard it to stop him from reviving himself. It is doubtful if he would ever have found a worthy apprentice to surpass him. Luke was his last best hope. Palpatine was described as a "Dark Side Nexus" by the time of his final death. A literal conduit of the dark side of the force. The God Emperor of Man would be his only worthy opponent and a worthy one indeed.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 08:14:02
As always the problem with this is the same as it has always been - the numbers necessary to determine outcomes are not available.
Star Wars has (or at least had) a very consistent canon policy.
40K does not.
Where in Star Wars if X is able to do Y, then an author (outside of non-canon) cannot go against that.
In 40K X can do Y and then in the next book in the series it is unable to do Y but can do Z which is something that was stated to be impossible in a third book.
Becuase of this we have no idea what effect a lasgun would have on Stormtrooper armour. We can determine how effective Trooper armour is (yes it has a weakness in the black rubber joints where arrows and spears were able to pierce), but would a lasgun be able to penetrate? We don't know since the fluff is so different depending on who is writing and which faction they want to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only way to have a reasonable discussion would to be to set a strict source policy. Of course people will complain about any perceived advantages or disadvantages one side would have over the other.
For example, you might say the only allowed sources for Star Wars are the 7 movies, the Clone Wars movies/cartoon show, and the Tech guides. Whereas for 40K you can use X, Y and Z as support (I don't know what you would use for consistency with 40K).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/20 11:43:34
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
These debates always come down to two factors, 1) the unimaginable numbers 40k possesses and the vastly better fleet that star wars has.
If let's say there was a planet of infinite size where both the total armies in each scenario could meet in a missive battle 40k would steam roll star wars without trouble. The total force of nids alone would do it even the guard might be able to do it alone.
However the speed in which SW ships can move could literally hyperspace in to a sector and slowly blow up 40k ships and warp out in a long drawn out war of attrition and 40k would have no answer with their slower and unpredictable space travel.
No, the problem is that the two universes are inherently incompatible because they operate according to vastly different rules. Therefore, a comparison can not be made. Before any meaningful (if you could call such comparisons that) comparison can be made, such questions need to be resolved first.
All living beings in Star Wars are connected to the Force. In the 40k universe, the Force does not exist. How does being severed from the Force affect people in Star Wars. The same thing is true for 40k humans and their connection to the Warp in the Star Wars universe. Now even if we assume the battle to take place in a third sub-universe where both Warp and Force exist at the same time. How do these two forces and their associated powers interract with each other? And on the matter of interraction, how do blasters and lasguns compare? can a blaster pierce the ceramite of power armour? Can a lightsaber? How do lightsabers interract with power weapons? Will the disruptive field of a power weapon shut out the lightsaber? Will a lightsaber just cut through a power weapon? Can a lightsaber block bolter rounds? Or will they just explode in the lightsaber user's face?
It is impossible to solve these questions, because there are no canon sources that provide any information on these matters. Therefore, a comparison between Star Wars and 40k is impossible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/20 14:08:57
Comparison between the two universes is actually quite possible, due to several base lines:
Humans are humans
Lightsabers exist in 40k, and are treated as power weapons
Blasters are safe plasma weapons, equal to Tau Pulse weapons base on description.
Storm Trooper armor as quantified as powered armor, although more like Sororitas armor than Astartes.
Force Users are close enough to Psykers as to be equivalent.
The Star Wars universe uses mostly grav-plas based tech with extensive use of AI via droids.
An Imperial army in Star Wars would be AM/Tau equivalent, armed with Pulse rifles, wearing 4+ save armor, lead by Pysker-Priests with war hymn based unit buffs and a mix of psychic disciplines. Vehicles are Tau equivalent, walkers are Imperial equivalent, with AM Scions in 3+ armor as Stormtroopers instead of Battlesuits. Pretty simple, really.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: Comparison between the two universes is actually quite possible, due to several base lines:
Humans are humans
Wrong. Humans in 40k are intrinsically (thanks dictionary) different from humans in Star Wars. 40k humans have no connection to the Force whatsoever, whereas Star Wars humans have no presence in the Warp. They may be the same on a basic level, but on a higher level they are different.
Lightsabers exist in 40k, and are treated as power weapons
Citation please? I don't recall any lightsabers in 40k, and there is no information afaik supporting that lightsabers and power weapons are similar. One is a plasma blade, the other is a metal blade wrapped in a disruptive field of some kind.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Blasters are safe plasma weapons, equal to Tau Pulse weapons base on description.
Such statements need citation. Going off Wookieepedia here, Blasters emit pulses of "intense light energy" (though I also recall them firing superheated gas or something like that?). This would make them more similar to lasguns, who emit beams of high energy focused light (3rd edition rulebook) Tau pulse rifles work by firing particles propelled by electromagnetic induction (Tau codex). They are essentially advanced railguns.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Storm Trooper armor as quantified as powered armor, although more like Sororitas armor than Astartes.
Citation please? To me it seems that Stormtrooper armour is more ceremonial than functional as it offers zero protection in the movies.
Citation please? Or is this all just unbased assumption?
jeffersonian000 wrote: The Star Wars universe uses mostly grav-plas based tech with extensive use of AI via droids.
An Imperial army in Star Wars would be AM/Tau equivalent, armed with Pulse rifles, wearing 4+ save armor, lead by Pysker-Priests with war hymn based unit buffs and a mix of psychic disciplines. Vehicles are Tau equivalent, walkers are Imperial equivalent, with AM Scions in 3+ armor as Stormtroopers instead of Battlesuits. Pretty simple, really.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
It is also difficult to quantify how much protection it offers given that there is no case where it manages to save its user's life from any hit at all in any of the movies, including the latest.
Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire
Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k
*Bonus Round: Jedi Master Yoda (in his Prime) vs. Magnus the Red (pre-Daemonhood)
1) I'd give it to the Assault Marine, as the Emperors Guard seem if anything to be mostly ceremonial. The Emperor had no need of being protected. While I understand they were hand picked as the best of the best that would still make them Scion equivalents, and not Space Marines. Goes to Space Marine for superior armour, strength and speed.
2) Again goes to the Marines. I'm of the opinion clone armour to be equivalent to Carapace armour, I've seen very little suggest otherwise. On the other hand, Blasters seem to be very effective weaponry, being rather destructive but also quite self contained. When a Blaster hits someone it tends to leave a quite small hole/burn mark, so even if we assume it would slice through power armour (debatable) they would need several shots to bring a marine down due to his physiology. Bolters are miniture warheads, if that hits an Clone, he is not getting back up.
3) Same fight as 1, except on a bigger scale.
4) Entirely depended on what discipline both employ. A Jedi who is defensive and employs the force as his weapon would be utterly worthless due to the Librarians mental defences, where as a more offensive Jedi who makes use of Force Speed and Agility is likely to pull a win. A Jedi using the Juyo form would likely win, but most would not, and since very few besides Mace Windu have mastered that form I'd give it to the Librarian. Psyker is more offensive then the Force, but a Lightsaber is better then a force weapon, hence Marine wins for durability.
5) Ends up being more of a win for the Librarian. A skilled Psyker can be much more damaging then a skilled force user. There isn't much you can do to avoid the air turning to napalm.
Will complete the rest when i have time, but it's currently going to the Imperium. Perhaps Imperial Guard/Scions are a better equivilent to the Imperial War Machine then Marines?
Lightsabers exist in 40k, and are treated as power weapons
Citation please? I don't recall any lightsabers in 40k, and there is no information afaik supporting that lightsabers and power weapons are similar. One is a plasma blade, the other is a metal blade wrapped in a disruptive field of some kind.
Xenos and Malleus, by Dan Abnett - Inquisitor Eisenhorn has a (Sollex pattern, I think?) power sword that is a hilt piece that projects an energy field.
Lightsabers are not consistent with the description of a 'plasma blade', as they clearly have some form of physical presence, as they are capable of parrying each other and those weapons they don't shear through. On top of that, in A New Hope, you can visibly see the solid core of Obi Wan's lightsaber as it loses power during the duel with Darth Vader.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Lightsabers exist in 40k, and are treated as power weapons
Citation please? I don't recall any lightsabers in 40k, and there is no information afaik supporting that lightsabers and power weapons are similar. One is a plasma blade, the other is a metal blade wrapped in a disruptive field of some kind.
Xenos and Malleus, by Dan Abnett - Inquisitor Eisenhorn has a (Sollex pattern, I think?) power sword that is a hilt piece that projects an energy field.
Interesting. Any more information on it? Does it function in the same way a lightsaber does? Is it a energy beam? Or is it just a sword where the hilt emits an energy field across the blade, like normal power weapons?
Furyou Miko wrote: Lightsabers are not consistent with the description of a 'plasma blade', as they clearly have some form of physical presence, as they are capable of parrying each other and those weapons they don't shear through. On top of that, in A New Hope, you can visibly see the solid core of Obi Wan's lightsaber as it loses power during the duel with Darth Vader.
A lightsaber is a plasma blade. The plasma is contained by a force containment field to keep the plasma from flowing out.This also prevents plasma from flowing in, which is why lightsabers can block each other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/20 21:55:29
Gamgee wrote: the Empire would crush the entire 40k universe. This is due to one simple fact. The rule of two. Each Sith must be stronger than the last, and are birthed in a crucible of war, power, and survival.
This doesn't make any sense though, because they aren't Highlanders, they aren't magically stronger because of this rule, it's simply a means of motivation that restricts them from ever becoming too large. Realistically in every form of training it is ideal that the student at some point overtakes the master and uses a combination of what the master passed down, along with their own ideologies, to create something better, the Sith simply require the death of one to accomplish that, which would weaken them, not strengthen them.
Heck, what your implying here makes more sense in 40k than it does in Star Wars, since in 40k there are things like the Emperor who are composed of multiple beings combining their power into one vessel, and then there's things like the PEN chip which can offer skilled generals the insight and knowledge of Puretide himself. The Sith lords on the other hand simply have a very harsh form of natural selection that in reality doesn't guarantee any true progress, but has luckily resulted in such :/.
I have fixed OP so that the comparison can be made, without involving questions we can't possibly answer.
EDIT: Also, be sure to cite sources if you aren't stating a widely accepted fact. For instance: In the Star Wars movies, Storm Trooper Armor is next to worthless, however, in the extended Universe, it provides a modicum of protection against most weapons (likely equivalent to Carapace Armour).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 00:49:32
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: I have fixed OP so that the comparison can be made, without involving questions we can't possibly answer.
EDIT: Also, be sure to cite sources if you aren't stating a widely accepted fact. For instance: In the Star Wars movies, Storm Trooper Armor is next to worthless, however, in the extended Universe, it provides a modicum of protection against most weapons (likely equivalent to Carapace Armour).
Okay. That is one thing out of the way then. Now we need to figure out how power weapons and lightsabers interact and the comparative power of blasters, lasguns bolters etc. I think storm trooper armour is more akin to flak armour. Apart from the movies, which are the highest level of canon in Star Wars, it usually offers very little protection against blaster hits in the EU as well. Storm trooper armour is more intended to look intimidating than it is to offer actual protection, I think. Wookieepedia states that the armour was only intended to protect against glancing blaster hits and shrapnel, not against direct hits. Storm trooper armour is also outfitted with a wide range of survival and data processing equipment, as well as targeting equipment (which must have malfunctioned, given their notoriously bad aiming skills ) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_armor
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 01:21:04
jeffersonian000 wrote: Comparison between the two universes is actually quite possible, due to several base lines:
Humans are humans
Wrong. Humans in 40k are intrinsically (thanks dictionary) different from humans in Star Wars. 40k humans have no connection to the Force whatsoever, whereas Star Wars humans have no presence in the Warp. They may be the same on a basic level, but on a higher level they are different.
Humans are human. Homo Sapiens Sapiens. In the novelized sequel to George Lucas' first film, THX-1138, the rebelling citizens were given the option to leave Earth aboard a massive colony ship fitted with an experimental jump drive. George Lucas has stated that it was his intention that these free thinking humans from our dystopian future traveled not only to a galaxy far, far away, but into the distant past (a long, long time ago) via their experimental jump ship. This means that humans in Star Wars even the same origin as the humans in 40k, Earth.
Lightsabers exist in 40k, and are treated as power weapons
Citation please? I don't recall any lightsabers in 40k, and there is no information afaik supporting that lightsabers and power weapons are similar. One is a plasma blade, the other is a metal blade wrapped in a disruptive field of some kind.
Rogue Trade described power weapons as being as diverse as crude metal blades covered in a power field to elegant blades of light. Such "light swords" have shown up in novels.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Blasters are safe plasma weapons, equal to Tau Pulse weapons base on description.
Such statements need citation. Going off Wookieepedia here, Blasters emit pulses of "intense light energy" (though I also recall them firing superheated gas or something like that?). This would make them more similar to lasguns, who emit beams of high energy focused light (3rd edition rulebook) Tau pulse rifles work by firing particles propelled by electromagnetic induction (Tau codex). They are essentially advanced railguns.
From Wikipedia, or any highschool level science textbook:
Spoiler:
A plasma can be created by heating a gas or subjecting it to a strong electromagnetic field applied with a laser or microwave generator. This decreases or increases the number of electrons, creating positive or negative charged particles called ions,[2] and is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, if present.[3]
The presence of a significant number of charge carriers makes plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. Like gas, plasma does not have a definite shape or a definite volume unless enclosed in a container. Unlike gas, under the influence of a magnetic field, it may form structures such as filaments, beams and double layers.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Storm Trooper armor as quantified as powered armor, although more like Sororitas armor than Astartes.
Citation please? To me it seems that Stormtrooper armour is more ceremonial than functional as it offers zero protection in the movies.
From Wookieperia:
Spoiler:
Stormtrooper armor was capable of protecting its wearer in extreme environments, including deserts, forest, icy wastelands, and limited exposure to the vacuum of space. The armor's torso plating featured environmental controls on its midsection, it's black body glove was vacuum-sealed[1] and made of a smart material that could adjust to the wearers body heat and external temperature.[4] Though a rebreather pack was required for extended use in environments that lacked breathable atmosphere.[7] It was a punishable offense to utilize the armor's internal cooling options in noncritical situations due to its power drain, however many Imperial cadets still attempted to do so.[4]
From the warhammer 40k wiki:
Spoiler:
Power Armour is an advanced form of powered combat armour, worn primarily by the Space Marines and the Chaos Space Marines. It is a completely enclosed suit of combat armour composed of shaped Adamantium and Plasteel plates, encased in a Ceramite ablative layer. Each suit possesses a full suite of life-support functions for operation in hostile environments, an automated medicae system to provide some level of first aid to a wounded wearer and a highly advanced and fully integrated tactical targeting and threat analysis system known as Auto-senses
Both are armoured suits with powered systems. It is possible you are confusing power armor with powered exoskeletons.
Citation please? Or is this all just unbased assumption?
The words "close enough" implies a comparison, as in the effect is "close enough" as to be similar.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The Star Wars universe uses mostly grav-plas based tech with extensive use of AI via droids.
An Imperial army in Star Wars would be AM/Tau equivalent, armed with Pulse rifles, wearing 4+ save armor, lead by Pysker-Priests with war hymn based unit buffs and a mix of psychic disciplines. Vehicles are Tau equivalent, walkers are Imperial equivalent, with AM Scions in 3+ armor as Stormtroopers instead of Battlesuits. Pretty simple, really.
Citations!
The use of the words "would be" implies a summation, not a quotation.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
dusara217 wrote: I have fixed OP so that the comparison can be made, without involving questions we can't possibly answer.
EDIT: Also, be sure to cite sources if you aren't stating a widely accepted fact. For instance: In the Star Wars movies, Storm Trooper Armor is next to worthless, however, in the extended Universe, it provides a modicum of protection against most weapons (likely equivalent to Carapace Armour).
Okay. That is one thing out of the way then. Now we need to figure out how power weapons and lightsabers interact and the comparative power of blasters, lasguns bolters etc. I think storm trooper armour is more akin to flak armour. Apart from the movies, which are the highest level of canon in Star Wars, it usually offers very little protection against blaster hits in the EU as well. Storm trooper armour is more intended to look intimidating than it is to offer actual protection, I think. Wookieepedia states that the armour was only intended to protect against glancing blaster hits and shrapnel, not against direct hits. Storm trooper armour is also outfitted with a wide range of survival and data processing equipment, as well as targeting equipment (which must have malfunctioned, given their notoriously bad aiming skills )
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_armor
Star Wars LIghtsabers are Plasma Swords (not unlike the Energy Swords from Halo, technologically), and, as we all know, the most prevalent means of controlling Plasma in Sci-Fi is via electromagnetic fields, and the like. Seeing as how Power Fields, in 40k, weaken molecular bonds, but have never been cited as being magnetic in nature, they would be highly unlikely to stop a Lightsaber. While Lightsabers do, in fact, have mass, said mass is negligible, in comparison to most melee weapons; this is due to the fact that Plasma is even hotter, and, therefore, more strung out, than gas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 03:07:32
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
HoundsofDemos wrote: To compare storm trooper Armour to a Marines is insulting. Assuming that blasters are similar to Tau weapons their not even close..
No one compared Stormtrooper armor to Astartes armor. The original comparison was to Sororitas armor. My clarification was that there is a difference between powered armor and armored exoskeletons.
As to Tau weapons, simply reading the Pulse weapon description followed by reading the Blaster description while show that they are close enough in description to be comparable.
As to Lightsabers, they are not plasma blades, despite repeated references to it. They appear to be highly condensed force fields, condensed to the width of atoms. While the original trilogy did not visualize force fields, the prequels did, and showed us that Lightsabers use the same technology as projected shields, just highly focused. This makes Lightsabers much closer to power swords in function. Plasma, on the other hand, only shares similarities with how Lightsabers look, but not function. Plasma will pass right through another plasma, and magnetic fields do not bounce off of each other.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
SO one thing I should mention, Clone Trooper armor is tougher than Stormtrooper armor. Stormtrooper would be something like a 5+ where as Clone trooper armor is a solid 4+
This is mentioned in the Star wars Tech guide.
Overall I'd give it to 40k in most scenarios. The Galactic Empire has more agile ships, but 40k has more firepower on everything. In ground battles 40k would dominate the Empire.
dusara217 wrote: I know, I know, there is already a thread for this. However, the terms for it are extremely ambiguous, and thus I am creating a different one with very specific scenarios that will more accurately compare the two Universes, and shouldn't take more than a dozen freaking pages of argument that take an age and a half to comb through. This is intended to be very cut-and-dry, with the factors in favor of each side listed and a victor decided based upon them. No feats will be factored into this, as, in one book, you have an ordinary Space Marine severing a fully-armoured Custodes's spinal cord with a single punch, and, in the next, a Space Marine can't even punch through Flak Armour (hyperbole, ftw). Extended Universe is included in this. So, here are the scenarios:
Scenario 1: 1 Assault Marine vs. 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Guards
Scenario 2: 1 Astartes Tactical Demi-Squad (5-man) vs. 1 Squad of Clone Commandos
Scenario 3: 1 Astartes Assault Squad vs. 10 Emperor's Guards
Scenario 4: 1 Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Knight
Scenario 5: 1 Chief Librarian vs. 1 Jedi Master
Scenario 6: Full-strength Genesis Space Marine Chapter versus 501st Clone Legion
Scenario 9: Imperium of Man versus Galactic Empire
Scenario 10: All Factions in Empire-era Star Wars versus all factions in 40k
*Bonus Round: Jedi Master Yoda (in his Prime) vs. Magnus the Red (pre-Daemonhood)
All of the above scenarios assume that getting into the action is not an issue (ie Genesis Chapter and 501st are fighting a ground war on a planet, Void ships are not a part of it. In the Fleet engagement, this is within a single Star System, or fully mapped Star Cluster within 40k). In Scenarios 9, let's just assume that the battles are taking place inside of a Sector (200 square Lightyears) that has a mini-Astronomican at its heart (along the lines of what Guilliman used in Unremembered Empire) as a navigational aid, and the Sector is fully mapped out by the Galactic Empire. The entirety of military forces on each side will be used in this Sector. In Scenario 10, let's assume that the SW Universe is invading the 40k Universe, and already has accurate Star Charts of 40k's Milky Way Galaxy.
This thread is intended to be a very controlled debate, in which each side's pros and cons are laid bare for all to see. It is intended that neither side be given an unfair advantage (ie, IoM getting an inordinate amount of Fortress Worlds, or Forge Worlds)
EDIT: All scenarios involved make the following assumptions:
- People from the Star Wars Universe are affected by both the Warp and Midichlorians
- People from the 40k Universe are affected by both the Warp and Midichlorians
- The Warp and The Force do not interact in any way, outside of the following exceptions: Psychc Powers still affect Force Users, Force Powers still affect Psykers/Daemons, Daemons can interact with beings affected by the Force.
As Sith Lords go, Palpatine is a chump. He's a master manipulator, sure, but his Force Power is weaksauce compared to someone like Emperor Vitiate, or Exar Kun.
Scenario 1-3 goes to 40k, there are no standard ground forces in SW capable of defeating Space Marines
Scenarios #4 and #5 are far too dependent on individual abilities to call. What if the Librarian is just a Diviner and possesses no offensive Psychic Powers? What if it's a Jedi Healer, rather than one who possesses offensive focus in the Force? What's the species of the Jedi in question? If it is say, an Anzat, then the Librarian gets wtfclowned because these space-vampires are basically immune to physical damage, and will rip the arms off the Librarian and beat him to death with them before eating his brain (which the Anzat refer to as "soup"). What if the Master Jedi possesses some of the rarer Force techniques? Like the ones that can trap a mind in its own nightmares-turned-real? The Force is far more versatile than the lists of Psychic Disciplines available in 40k (even though even those are intended to be representative, not all-inclusive). There is also the risk of Perils to the Librarian, which the Jedi doesn't suffer.
Scenario #6 goes to the Space Marines.
Scenario #7 goes to the Imperial Guard of 40k, as they outnumber the Imperial Army of SW many times over. They can literally just drown them in bodies.
Scenario #8 goes to the Imperial Fleet, as they outnumber the 40k fleet 20 to 1, with superior shielding technology and weapons on-par with the standard ship-borne weapons of 40k.
Scenario #9 goes to the Imperium of Man, seeing that the Galactic Empire has very few people capable of combating the number of psykers the 40k Imperium can throw at it, not to mention the vast preponderance of militarization in 40k vs Star Wars.
Bonus Round: Magnus the Red, in a landslide. Even in his prime, Yoda is only an exceptionally-powerful Jedi for his era, not particularly powerful compared to the historic greats (Revan, Bastila, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, etc.). Magnus would blink and crush Yoda into paste.
jeffersonian000 wrote: No one compared Stormtrooper armor to Astartes armor. The original comparison was to Sororitas armor.
Yeah no stop it. The difference between Astartes armor and Sororitas armor is then when you gak your Astartes armor, it recycles it into some nutriment paste or something, while the Sororitas armor just protects you and enhance you strength.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Citation please? I don't recall any lightsabers in 40k, and there is no information afaik supporting that lightsabers and power weapons are similar. One is a plasma blade, the other is a metal blade wrapped in a disruptive field of some kind.
Sollex-pattern Power Sword, once carried by Inquisitor Eisenhorn. It's a powersword with no physical blade, just the matter-disrupting energy field. It's as close as one gets to a lightsaber in 40k.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
jeffersonian000 wrote: No one compared Stormtrooper armor to Astartes armor. The original comparison was to Sororitas armor.
Yeah no stop it. The difference between Astartes armor and Sororitas armor is then when you gak your Astartes armor, it recycles it into some nutriment paste or something, while the Sororitas armor just protects you and enhance you strength.
Citation, please.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Any description of the armor, ever. But you seem to like 40k wiki, so: “Created initially by the forges on Mars for the Adepta Sororitas, this lighter variant of Power Armour provides excellent protection and increased strength with little to no reduction in movement speed or agility. ” From the article on power armor. Seems straightforward to me. Or were you asking for a source that Astartes power armor recycles feces?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 10:12:09
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Any description of the armor, ever.
But you seem to like 40k wiki, so:
“Created initially by the forges on Mars for the Adepta Sororitas, this lighter variant of Power Armour provides excellent protection and increased strength with little to no reduction in movement speed or agility. ”
From the article on power armor.
Seems straightforward to me.
Or were you asking for a source that Astartes power armor recycles feces?
I was asking for your source that Sister armor processes less BS than Marine armor, but I was being facetious.
Let's compare four sets of factional sci-fi armor. Each set starts with a self-sealing vacuum resistant bodyglove with added ceramic plates and survival systems, sensors, comms, and air filtration/rebreather, all powered via an in-built power supply. Where they differ are in plate coverage, operational endurance, and strength enhancement. Those four armor sets are: SW Clone armor, SW Stormtrooper armor, 40k Sororitas armor, and 40k Astartes armor. All four sets are considered powered armor, aka power armor. Clone, Stormtrooper, and Sororitas armor are almost identical with only varying degrees of plate coverage and operation time, while Astartes armor includes strength enhancement and far greater operational endurance. As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.
As to Lightsabers being plasma blades, that's not canon, its EU and fanfiction as well as attempts to apply modern technological understanding to a piece of fantasy technology. What we are shown in canon is not a plasma blade, nor is it ever described as such. And regardless, it's still a power weapon, just of a more elegant design.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: As I stated before, power armor is not necessarilly an armored exoskeleton.
But Sororitas armor IS an armored exoskeleton. It allows the wearer to shoot from the hip weapons that are made for tanks, and that requires two very trained men without armor to just carry (and they set it on the ground when they want to shoot it).
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
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