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kambien wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think these changes are too crude and overpowering. Any assault from deepstrike mechanic needs to be carefully regulated.

Not true there where a couple units that could assault from deepstrike, vangaurd with jump packs in 5th edition and it did no break the game at all, and that is with no overwatch at all. The only thing about them is that, yeahh they would demolish the unit they charged from deep strike, not always against decent melee units, but then be open to be shot at and counter charged the very next turn. I played tau during this edition, and was able to ruin these expensive units after they would destroy one of my units.

I as a tau player disagree , assaulting form deepstrike , i might as well just pack my models up. It was totally crushing in 5th ed ( even more so form drop pod armies , which all marines can do and have a added benefit of almost never misshaping ) , I'm not sure how you did well , or did you waste 1/5 of your armies points on bubble-wrap ?

Its not even about demolishing the unit form deepstrike , its also the fact they can wipe a unit ( which is a terrible melee unit ) by losing combat by 1 w ( hello terrible leadership tau ) and be immune from shooting while they do it , oh and 50% of the time they are immune from getting shot even if they wipe the nit , cause they did it on your assault phase and not theirs.

The only real way to get deep strike from reserve back is to rework the entire close combat system

Lose some of your firepower and I'd be more willing to listen to your concerns. Tau make it so I can't even play. They set up, and I pick up my army. Real fun.

Martel732 wrote:
Lose some of your firepower and I'd be more willing to listen to your concerns. Tau make it so I can't even play. They set up, and I pick up my army. Real fun.

You having a gakky dex isn't the issue with assaulting form deep strike.

Tau have a ton of cheap interceptor including intercepting markerlights, and get half their army to overwatch after that. Following this, if the enemy somehow makes it to your units, they should only be able to hit small easily swept fire warrior/kroot squads, and only if they succeed at the charge with a -2 for terrain.

In my history of 40k, there are exactly two armies that I have won multiple games without losing a model (disregarding early concessions.) Tau 6e are one of them, and I swiftly stopped playing my buddy's tau when that became the case. No army should be able to pull off multiple flawless victories at even point totals, I don't care how good the general is.

Like I've said before, as long as "removing a unit of choice via shooting from out of deep strike with little chance of failure" exists, being able to "MAYBE assault a trash unit they leave unprotected after overwatch and randumb charge range out of reserve" should also exist, if not be improved upon.

Tau don't exactly have the best position at the moment to speak out against this. Given that they're extremely good at the moment, it would be very easy to see as "shooty player double standards."

Replace Tau with IG, then, no interceptor, no overwatch support, the units with decent firepower can't overwatch and die instantly in CC.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Replace Tau with IG, then, no interceptor, no overwatch support, the units with decent firepower can't overwatch and die instantly in CC.

Guard are better at bubble wrapping than almost anyone else in the game. If you see deep strike assaults coming, tell some boys to stand in front of your valuable stuff and get ready to die. Granted guard aren't great overall right now, but dealing with deep strike assaults doesn't make it an auto-loss shut-out.

Getting rid of the bubble wrap is not hard

Well if you can't get rid of them in the movement phase, they've probably accomplished their job, and you're too far away from their good stuff to assault it. As long as none of the guard decide to be stubborn heroes and instead die like good little dogs, your units are open game for all the return fire.

Like I said though, I don't consider guard very good ATM, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose to reserve assaults. I don't think that's a problem with reserve assaults. I think that's a problem with guard needing a boost.

Martel732 wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I think if you want to power up an army like BAs you should
- give an equipment to assault units that prevent Overwatch
- some sort of grenades that force opponent units shooting at the unit equipped with, to pass a BS test with -2 or lose the fire
- give Death Co. 3+ FNP
- pred Baal special No Cover ammo.

With these upgrades, the BA would still be worthless. BA need to be able to survive scatbikes, WKs, Black knights, TWC and grav stars. BA with grenades don't live that long. Equipment that denies overwatch doensn't help because they don't live that long. DC with 3+ FNP will still die to shooting. Baals get glanced out on the side armor easily, and so are never taken.

I do not intend BAs become the top tier codex, but DC would be far more resistant to great volumes of fire, Baal would ignore jink and shroud, scatter bikes or other shooty units would have to test WS -2 or loose fire. Not that easy.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Getting rid of the bubble wrap is not hard

It is before you army shows up. And drop lists LITERALLY can't remove it in time.

Orks
-Change 1-
All Nobz, Flash Gitz, and HQs (excluding Mekboyz and Weirdboyz) give +1 leadership for each model in the unit. Over 10 leadership causes fearless. Call this rule Nob Rule.
-Reason-
Nobz in the fluff are the bigger, stronger, and more capable of the Orks and are both inspiring and terrifying to the other boyz in the unit. Nobz aren't ones to back down from a good fight and Boyz aren't about to leg it when they have Nobz stuck in with them. Makes Nob squads and units with HQs braver. Less reliant on Mob Rule to keep things held together.

-Change 2-
All Nobz and Nob stat line models (excluding the Weirdboy) have 4+ armor as default.
-Reason-
Challenges hurt Nobz with their 6+ armor save so it greatly reduces the risk of a nobody squad leader from killing a Nob before he can swing his PK (which is about half the killing power of a boyz unit). Also give an effective points cut to Nob squads and give Flash Gitz a survivability boost.

-Change 3-
Add Lucky Paint as a 5+ invuln save and cybork becomes +1 to FNP. Lucky Paint being 5ppm, not sure about what cybork should cost.
-Reason-
Orks lack invuln saves which makes challenges and melee combat units incredibly risky and unable to deal with power weapons. Giving nobz their access to invuln saves will make them somewhat relevant again. Nob bikers might actually see the light of day again.

-Change 4-
Warboss on foot have an upgrade for +1 Toughness. Call it Meaner and Greener and make it something like 40 points.
-Reason-
Its silly that the only way for a Warboss to get pseudo Eternal Warrior is to take a bike and yet that only gives 4+ armor in close combat. Warboss with Mega Armor can still be doubled out by Str 10. Still vulnerable to Force and Instant Death but able to tangle with all the Str 10 melee gak out there without needing a bike.

-Change 5-
Lucky Stikk can only reroll 3 rolls a player turn. Remove the "3 failures removes from game" mess.
-Reason-
Lucky Stikk is crazy powerful but a bit of an annoyance to book keep. Also with the other improvements the Orks wouldn't need as much of a crutch as the Lucky Stikk currently gives. More likely to see rerolls for melee attacks, to wound, etc when you don't have to bank them for armor saves during the opponents turn. Use the stikk more for person use and less for tanking a hundred attacks for the squad

There was already a forum post for an updated Chaos Space Marines codex, but ill bring my ideas here instead.

1.Make Marks of Chaos less expensive. Also, give the marks an extra rule for them e.g Khorne gives Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Rage, and something that lets them get in range for assault quicker, knowing the disadvantage assault armies have in 7th.

2.Make the named characters not cost as much, and give Daemon Princes T6. Please.

3.Give certain units (which I find to be most of them) a points decrease, namely CSM troops, Cultists and Warp Claws to name a few.

I'm sure that there are easier ways to change the CSM rules than just point changes, but there are my suggestions anyway.

For DE theres just so much that needs to be done that I don't think I can put only 4 changes but I'll try.

Archons need a aura effect and an actual CC weapon that lets them use their great combat stats and they need their bike options back
DE need better range options, and a start would be to reverse the rule changes on Disentegrators, revert them back to the 3rd ed 2nd book and allow disentegrators to be taken by scourge or kabalite troops
kabalite troops need some kind of buff since they lost their edge when their cousins gained BS/WS 4
I'm torn between they need a new army wide rule (kind of like CWE) or they need a new vehicle that can cover their lack of weapon platforms (something that isn't a ravager that is limited to 2 weapon options).

There's a lot the DE need right now but I'd basically would be writing a new codex for them if I listed out everything.

Four changes to make Adepta Sororitas top tier;

-2 points per model
Add really good anti-air flier.
Universal Acts of Faith
Add an Act of Faith to ignore Invulnerable Saves.

Done. Instant broken army that beats everything.

Scions:

Hotshots are now Assault 2

Sergeants can give a few orders to their own squads, with the CCS able to give better orders that stack with the sergeants one.

Allows the Scions to use Vendettas

Vox can be used to transmit orders with no range limit

Well... CSM pretty much needs a complete reworking to be on par, but to just change 4, I guess I can throw some basic suggestions for the worst offenders.

1. Base CSM need some sort of fearless like mechanic. Every other marine has ATSKNF, make CSM Stubborn. It fits them, and its fluffy.

2. Warp Talons need assault grenades and need the ability to assault on the turn they arrive. Right now, all their fluff points towards a unit and literally cuts itself out the warp to surprise attack and shred their target. Yet their play style is arrive, maybe blind a unit for a turn, then get shot off the board. I propose changing their arrival rule mechanic of that currently blinds any enemy unit within 6 inches (or 8 inches, I don't quite remember and don't have my codex with me at work.) to instead make any unit within that designated range vulnerable to assault on arrival from the warp talons. Call is "Surprise Attack" or something, Everything about this unit is an assault unit that can't assault, and that needs to be remedied.

3. Give possessed the "Beast" Unit type in addition to their unit types. These guys are mutated beyond recognition, they probably charge into battle on all four, fueled with nothing but demonic strength and anger. Thats enough to justify them being as fast as spawn to me.

4. Defiler needs to lose the battle cannon and get something similar that doesn't have the ordinance special rule, thus making ALL his shooting weapons useful. It probably wouldn't hurt to bring his point cost down to around 150-160ish. Right now it costs too much and hinders itself by being a "jack of all trades, master of none" unit. At 150 pts, I can justify a unit like that, at around 200 pts, I cannot. It's also basically a centerpiece unit for the army, it's something CSM is really known for and its so garbage no one will ever take one, outside of very fluffy and forgiving lists.

Honorable Mentions:
Mutilators: I can't think of anything that makes this unit viable. You can give them an assault from DS mechanic, but I feel like that would make them too powerful for their points cost.

There's an extremely long thread devoted to the issues IG currently has, but here's a few:

1. Give Leman Russes back Lumbering Behemoth. Not only did the loss of this rule destroy the classic jack-of-all-trades Russ build (MBT with lascannon and heavy bolters) but it relegates the MBT and to a lesser extent the Demolisher to the bottom of the pile.

2. Hellhound variants get a universal price drop of 10-20 points. They're simply not survivable enough to justify their price.

3. The Vanquisher gets something, anything, to justify its role as a vehicle hunter. To be fair, this isn't unique to Guard (Dark Lances and the like spring to mind.)

4. Power weapons of all varieties get a price drop. As it is, paying more than the price of a model for a sword/axe/fist on a I3/4 T3 platform generally isn't really worth it.

5. Rough Riders...need a complete rework from the ground up.

6. Ogryns and Bullgryns are just way overcosted for what they do. Ditto the Lord Commissar.

Honorable mention: the Guard is the most diverse organized fighting force in the galaxy...why am I currently playing Codex: Cadia (and sometimes Catachan?)

Brother-Captain and Grandmaster add or subtract 1 from all reserve rolls (Friendly and enemy!)
Brotherhood Champion may take a Personal Teleporter
Castellan Crowe gains Smash
Paladins gain It Will Not Die
Dreadnaughts replace Sanctuary with Forewarning
Strike Squads gain Interceptor
Interceptors gain Infiltrate
Rhinos and Razorbacks gain Scout
Purgation Squads replace Hammerhand with Perfect Timing
Land Raiders gain Forewarning

CSM
Give whole army Stubborn.
Give everything an extra attack.
Make the Marks better.
Give bonuses for using a mono god list, for example an all Khorne list gets Furious Charge, an all Tzeentch list makes everything a Psyker/Brotherhood Psykers/+1 Mastery Level, an all Nurgle list makes everything FNP and IWND, an all Slaanesh list gives everything Outflank and Acute Senses.
Make all units cheaper.

Blood angel improvements:
1.Blood angels can decide when there army comes on from reserves.

2.All vehicles are assault.

3.Turn 2 and onward BA can assault from deepstrike.

3.DC get 5-8 points drop in special weapons.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Tau don't exactly have the best position at the moment to speak out against this. Given that they're extremely good at the moment, it would be very easy to see as "shooty player double standards."

That sums up the problem with endeavours like this--40K players seem much more clannish about "their" faction than players of other games, so any attempt to balance the game will inevitably bring cries of bias. Just look at any ITC thread.

 TrenchCoatCreep wrote:
Blood angel improvements:
1.Blood angels can decide when there army comes on from reserves.

2.All vehicles are assault.

3.Turn 2 and onward BA can assault from deepstrike.

3.DC get 5-8 points drop in special weapons.

I like the "not turn 1" assault from deep strike.

I think special melee weapons are overcosted across the board, not just on DC. 15 points for a power sword seems silly when 10 buys a meltagun.

 Lukash_ wrote:
There's an extremely long thread devoted to the issues IG currently has, but here's a few:

1. Give Leman Russes back Lumbering Behemoth. Not only did the loss of this rule destroy the classic jack-of-all-trades Russ build (MBT with lascannon and heavy bolters) but it relegates the MBT and to a lesser extent the Demolisher to the bottom of the pile.

2. Hellhound variants get a universal price drop of 10-20 points. They're simply not survivable enough to justify their price.

3. The Vanquisher gets something, anything, to justify its role as a vehicle hunter. To be fair, this isn't unique to Guard (Dark Lances and the like spring to mind.)

4. Power weapons of all varieties get a price drop. As it is, paying more than the price of a model for a sword/axe/fist on a I3/4 T3 platform generally isn't really worth it.

5. Rough Riders...need a complete rework from the ground up.

6. Ogryns and Bullgryns are just way overcosted for what they do. Ditto the Lord Commissar.

Honorable mention: the Guard is the most diverse organized fighting force in the galaxy...why am I currently playing Codex: Cadia (and sometimes Catachan?)

Yes, little things like these should make individual units better, which gradually improves the codex without going over the top. I would also suggest:

-Ogryns go back to Bulky from Very Bulky. Bullgryns could probably stay Very Bulky with all that armor and huge shields.

-Hydras get their anti-jink rule back. IMO they'd be valuable enough with this for even a 5-10 point increase.

-Either improve the stats on Valkyrie weapons, or remove One Use Only (None of this applies to the rocket pods)

-HWS! These guys need a price drop of at least 15 points to the group (5 per base is beyond reasonable), and either an upgrade to add a Sergeant to the unit or vox caster upgrade to make orders less useless. Perhaps some upgrade to give these guys Stealth, so they don't crumble like dry leaves when camped in ruins but are still reasonably weak to certain weapons like ignores cover.

On a separate note, I really did love the look of Cadians when I first peeked into 40k, which is why I ultimately went IG, but I think I might've gone Mordians instead if 1) I knew they existed at the time, and 2) they had plastic kits, including battle force and whatnot. I can't say that I regret having all these Cadians.

1-4 changes for tyranids

1: Shadow in The Warp: Any enemy model/unit that has the Fearless or ATSKNF rules have Stubborn instead while within synapse range. In addition any enemy unit in synapse range only harnesses warp charges on a 5+ instead of a 4+.

2: Hive Tyrant: Reduce the cost for base HT by 20 points. Wings now replace a pair of scything talons.

3: Synapse: Units with the synapse rule gain a 5+ invul save. Giving HT, Warriors, and other key units a little more survive-ability.

4: Bioplasmic Cannon: Increase range to 48 inches as a blast and str 10 as streams

Most of those changes involves getting into close combat, which simply doesn't happen if you try to avoid the assault from deep strike trope.

Then that's where it needs to be focused. Because there are assault armies which need to remain assault armies if they aren't going to feel like ultramarines spray-painted red.

Assuming that massed firepower isn't going away, you need to be able to survive that fire long enough to reach the enemy, and then beat them in close combat. Fortunately, Eldar and Tau are two armies (about the only two armies) who actually give a damn about morale, so if you can get to a battlesuit squad or jetbike squad and beat them in combat, you've got a decent chance of massacring the lot of them.

So.....how do you let assault units reach the enemy in sufficient strength to win an assault? Any number of rules are possible but they essentially boil down to the following:

Option 1: Make the assault unit utterly hideous in combat
If a single death company marine or genestealer purestrain can beat the ever-loving out of an entire battlesuit squad, you only need one of them to 'get through'. That's going to require faintly ridiculous melee power, though. I don't think even blood angels players are arguing for their assault marines to suddenly be promoted to the statline of captains.

Option 2: Make the assault unit faster
If you move faster, you spend less turns under fire. Notice that the 'default' assault units these days are either on wolves or bikes - a 12" move, and either scout or turboboost.
Making assault squad's jump packs move faster than they currently do might make a big difference.

Option 3: Make the assault unit tougher
Pretty obvious, but has the same problem as option 1. FNP Sanguinary Guard take a lot of killing with scatter laser fire, but I'm not sure if they're tough enough to make it across the board, and you really can't make infantry tougher whilst still feeling like infantry.

Option 4: Make the assault unit expendable
The Khorne Daemonkin option. At the same time, any assault squad could be cheaper. If an assault marine was the same price as a tactical marine, this might go some way to helping.

Option 5: Prevent the unit being shot at some other way
Psykers with invisibility have become the default for this one, but there are other ways - the simplest way to prevent shooting with attacks that people tend to list when asked what's overpowered is to block line of sight. That means mandating more terrain, or giving access to line-of-sight blocking unit, or...something else? Anyone remember 2nd edition blind grenades? Being able to deploy LOS-blocking terrain instead of shooting was extremely powerful, and I don't see why it'd have gotten any less so.

Oh goodie, this thread won't involve a bunch of people getting warnings...

Anyhow, on topic:


Guard

1 - Either give back Lumbering Behemoth or let 'heavy tank' have the same rules. Tanks with this rule shouldn't be penalized for firing a weapon, ever.

2 - Rework the entire elites section, points drops, dedicated transport options for Ogryns/Bullgryns, Scion point drops and weapon reworks. Generally this whole section of the book is pants.

3 - I'm tempted to argue for a close combat doctrine/order of some kind given that our only option currently is put a priest and commissar in a blob and hope you don't fight anything scary. And order that gives Furious Charge, or reroll all to hits, or something that doesn't involve failing a leadership test on whatever the priests leadership is (it's like, what, 6 or something?). Also, WHO GIVES A gak ABOUT SMASH ON A PRIEST, THEY'RE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY AND SMASH DOES EXACTLY gak AGAINST SOMETHING YOU WILL SEND A BLOB AGAINST.

4 - Inclusion of all my old special characters. Not only did they give the book a nice bit of fluff - it allowed for some really cool options (outflanking platoons?). Maybe rework Mogul to work with Rough Riders and give them some buffs?


Blood Angels

1 - Take every unit they have access to that is basically a 'mirror' of the vanilla dex and match their stats. The fact this was overlooked is stupid.

2 - All vehicles are dropped in whatever points cost the 'turbo engines' is. Rhinos are assault transports.

3 - Any unit with jump packs scatter -1d6 and can assault out of deepstrike.

4 - Some sort of buff to the marine statline before a charge that forces enemies to take a leadership test (or something) before shooting overwatch, or forces them to hit on bs1 or bs0.

One way to fix things for assault based armies, is to fix assault.

Currently shooting is; measure range, roll to hit, roll to wound, saves, Ld check, fall back.

Assault is far to complex; move, declare target, overwatch, random charge distance with modifiers, hammer of wrath, challenges, pile in, initiative step with further pile in, roll to hit, roll to wound, saves, next initiative with pile in rinse repeat, calculate wounds, roll for Ld, sweeping advance, fall back, consolidate. Next unit.

First thing, bin random charge distance. You can keep modifiers for terrain, but run should be 6", and units should be able to charge afterwards a further 6".
Second, drop challenges. Complete waste of time.
Third, bin overwatch unless the unit has declared that they are going into overwatch in their turn.

That should speed things up and make assault more viable without breaking the game.

I've mentioned before why the "sacrifice shooting to overwatch" deal is a bad idea unless we radically revamp what Overwatch actually does, and I'm not at all sure that Overwatch is what's making assault weak in 7e.

Charge range, on the other hand, is - but a 6" fixed charge is probably too short and, importantly, too predictable. 2d6 is interesting because being in rapid-fire range - for all but a few rapid-fire weapons - means also being in charge range, if only possibly. (And how many folks actually assiduously measure to insure they're just barely in rapid-fire range, so that you need that boxcars charge?) As a compromise I'd propose d6+6" charge ranges. With a fixed 6", it's too easy to keep away, especially for units that can move in the assault phase and units that can move more than 6". With a fixed 12" range, assault is too effective. 6+d6 will create the potential for 12" charges, thus making double-tap range risky, while also making it impossible to muff a 3" charge.

So I think Space Wolves are Lower Tier without allies, including imperial knights. The only way I have seen wolves do decently, is TWC spam with a knight, or with some sort of Space Marine allies for hit and run, invisibility, or whatever.

Some sweeping changes for them.

1. Get in line with SM, this means that our scouts, meaning another change to our scouts (bring back behind enemy lines)

2. EVERYTHING has acute senses, but nothing really gets outflank without a serious bit of luck. Give the wolves some outflank without making it a 1/6 roll.

3. Formations. SW need some formations. SM have skyhammer and demicompany, both are superb. If wolves could get a drop pod based formation, that would just be the best ever. Drop pods free, twin linked and re-roll wound when you get out of the pod (or something, I dunno, shrouded, like that FW pod, they need a boost). Hell, give them a formation where if EVERYTHING is in a drop pod, all the pods arrive turn 1, or at least everything always arrives turn 2.


Right now SW are not really pulling off the in your face cunning hunter marines they are supposed to be. Instead its either melee that puts BA to shame, or a bunch of drop pods that just die the next turn.

For BA:
1. Adjust stats and points to match like units in C:SM.
2. Start rolling for reserves turn 1, success on 4+. All jump pack infantry can assault out of Deep Strike. If any of these units scatters onto an enemy unit, move them the minimum distance needed to not be directly on top of the offending unit. The deep striking unit enters combat with the unit they DS on top of in the ensuing Assault Phase, gaining Hammer of Wrath.
3. Give Baal Predators back Scout. Move them to FA.
4. Give all JP infantry Jink.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
For BA:
1. Adjust stats and points to match like units in C:SM.
2. Start rolling for reserves turn 1, success on 4+. All jump pack infantry can assault out of Deep Strike. If any of these units scatters onto an enemy unit, move them the minimum distance needed to not be directly on top of the offending unit. The deep striking unit enters combat with the unit they DS on top of in the ensuing Assault Phase, gaining Hammer of Wrath.
3. Give Baal Predators back Scout. Move them to FA.
4. Give all JP infantry Jink.

Hmm. Giving all jump infantry Jink - not bad. Would that be just a BA thing, or should all jump infantry get that? (I ask, because Dark Eldar Hellions could really benefit from that, too - I'd thought to propose exactly that for them specifically)