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IC are a part of the unit so long as they are in coherency with a unit. Wound allocation goes per model. Either a) the ic is killed first and it is now no longer a part of the unit because he is no longer in coherency (because dead) or b) the unit he is attached to is killed first and the ic is no longer a part of the unit because he is no longer in coherency because no other models in the unit exist for him to be in coherency with. It is impossible for a ic to die and be a part of a unit that gets wiped out for effects that take place after the unit is eliminated.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Sigh...

So explain this. Step me through the process that wipes out both IC and Scarabs at the same time. The reason I ask is because in my mind, one of two things happens... Either the IC dies first, thus removing him from the unit and placing him to the side, or the Scarabs die first, again, removing the IC from the unit and causing him to reform his own unit.

Fun facts...

1. In the Shooting Phase, wounds are allocated "one at a time", so it's impossible for Scarabs and IC to be removed as casualties simultaneously.
2. In the Assault Phase, wounds are allocated "just like in the Shooting Phase", i.e., one at a time, so again, it's impossible for Scarabs and IC to be removed as casualties simultaneously.

I've eliminated standard shooting and assault caused wounds. Please explain your idea about how the models are removed as casualties simultaneously.

Being removed from play is not a trigger for being detached from the unit in the Independent Character rules.

When the IC is removed from play his status is part of the scarab unit. When the whole unit is removed from play, the whole unit is designated "completely destroyed" and the "wiped out" rule gets triggered to return the unit of scarabs to play. The IC status is still part of the scarab unit so he returns to play along with the scarab unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
IC are a part of the unit so long as they are in coherency with a unit. Wound allocation goes per model. Either a) the ic is killed first and it is now no longer a part of the unit because he is no longer in coherency (because dead) or b) the unit he is attached to is killed first and the ic is no longer a part of the unit because he is no longer in coherency because no other models in the unit exist for him to be in coherency with. It is impossible for a ic to die and be a part of a unit that gets wiped out for effects that take place after the unit is eliminated.

Removed from play is removed from play. It's a limbo - no rules zone. Coherency is a rule that affects models that are in play.

If the IC is removed from play while part of the scarab unit he will return to play as part of the scarab unit. Everything in between being removed from play and returning to play is limbo - nothing happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since the conversation has fixated on the attached IC, I guess it's been begrudgingly accepted by the thread that a unit of twelve scarabs will return to play RAW as a unit of twelve scarabs since the rule clearly lacks the specification of "starting" or "original".

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Actually, that IS what the rules say. When the rest of the unit is wiped out, it returns to being its own unit at the end of that Phase. There is no requirement that the IC still be on the board when this happens.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Actually, that IS what the rules say. When the rest of the unit is wiped out, it returns to being its own unit at the end of that Phase. There is no requirement that the IC still be on the board when this happens.

The IC is removed from the game at that point and not part of the game until the unit returns to play. Removed from the game is removed from the game.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Actually, that IS what the rules say. When the rest of the unit is wiped out, it returns to being its own unit at the end of that Phase. There is no requirement that the IC still be on the board when this happens.

The IC is removed from the game at that point and not subject to the rules of the game until the unit returns to play. Removed from the game is removed from the game.

And the quote to support that statement is...?

Charistoph wrote:

And the quote to support that statement is...?

@col_impact:
So how many models strong is the resurrected unit?

Say I had a unit of 10 warriors from this Formation.
T1 I attach an IC to them.
T2 they lose 5 models.
T3 the IC dies whilst a part of the unit.
T4 the rest of the unit (the remaining 5 warriors) is wiped.

How many models will be returned?
And please explain why.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

And the quote to support that statement is...?

Spoiler:

If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

None of which supports this:

col_impact wrote:The IC is removed from the game at that point and not part of the game until the unit returns to play. Removed from the game is removed from the game.

Or invalidates the fact that the IC is removed from the unit at the end of the phase the rest of the unit is wiped out. Nothing about this rule says this does not apply if the IC is also killed.

In fact, if we have Kill Points as precedence and reminder for them being two units after being wiped out.

Units that are not in play are not subject to the rules of units in play.

Otherwise you would have Zooming Flyers either wrecking themselves automatically or going into Ongoing Reserves on turn one.

Units that are not in play skip play until they are permitted to enter play.

The IC is part of the scarab unit when he is removed from play and skips play until he re-enters play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@col_impact:
So how many models strong is the resurrected unit?

Say I had a unit of 10 warriors from this Formation.
T1 I attach an IC to them.
T2 they lose 5 models.
T3 the IC dies whilst a part of the unit.
T4 the rest of the unit (the remaining 5 warriors) is wiped.

How many models will be returned?
And please explain why.

5 models are removed from play. The IC is removed from play when he is part of the unit of Warriors. When all of the models in the Warrior unit are removed from play, the unit is designated as 'wiped out'. The rule triggers to return the unit of Warriors. The unit of Warriors includes the IC - only a rule affecting units in play could have detached him from the unit of Warriors.

col_impact wrote:
Units that are not in play are not subject to the rules of units in play.

Otherwise you would have Zooming Flyers either wrecking themselves automatically or going into Ongoing Reserves on turn one.

Units that are not in play skip play until they are permitted to enter play.

The IC is part of the scarab unit when he is removed from play and skips play until he re-enters play.

Incorrect on several fronts.

Units in Reserves are not in play, but they are still subject to the rules of units in play.

An IC in a unit is part of the unit until he leaves it. He can leave it by dying, moving out of coherency, or having the rest of the unit die. The rule does not care if the IC survives this or not. At the end of the Phase the Scarabs/Warriors and IC die, the rest of the unit has died, so the IC is removed from the unit. This is substantiated by the reminder in the Objective of Purge the Alien.

If a unit that is not in play is not subjected to the rules of units in play, then the unit in question cannot be brought back on the board, since it will not be affected by its rules any more than a unit in Reserves can be affected by the Warlord Trait that affects Reserves. Do Space Marine Bikes suddenly change from Troops to Fast Attack when their Bike Captain dies? No.

You bring no evidence that once a model is removed from play all rules regarding it are null and void. Indeed, the very concept of it is denied by virtue of the very rule you are trying to invoke, along with numerous other rules which have provided similar benefits (Send in the Next Wave, Endless Swarm, etc). I have presented evidence that the IC is considered a separate unit when dead as considered by the same rulebook when the unit has died.

The one real question I have regarding this is do these units count as a Kill Point on the first kill or the last? Or is it every time it dies it provides one? This rule does not address it like Send in the Next Wave or Endless Swarm did.

Charistoph wrote:


Units in Reserves are not in play, but they are still subject to the rules of units in play.

Explain what happens to Zooming Flyers on turn one of the Movement Phase. The Movement Phase does not specify just units in play. So by your logic the Zooming Flyer in Reserves would be required to move.

So a Zooming Flyer which is required to move 18" will crash if it does not. Alternatively it will go into Ongoing Reserves when it winds up off the Battlefield and arrive without Reserve Roll on turn 2. Take your pick. The Zooming Flyer case proves that the rules for units in play do not apply to the units that are not in play. Zoom. Zoom. Zoom.


So since the IC is removed from play, the IC is not subject to the rules of units in play, unless a rule specifies that it affects a unit that is in this removed from play limbo. This is obvious. If units that are not in play are subject to the rules of units in play the game breaks. Zoom. Zoom. Zoom





We can come to no other conclusion from the Zooming Flyer case that the BRB treats units that are removed from play as exactly removed from play and not subject to the regular rules of play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

An IC in a unit is part of the unit until he leaves it. He can leave it by dying, moving out of coherency, or having the rest of the unit die.

Read the IC rules. The IC does not leave the unit when he dies. He can move out of coherency and detach during the movement phase. If the rest of the unit dies, he will detach next phase.

None of these things transpire for the IC that is removed from play as part of a scarab unit. The IC is removed from play and is skipping play until the scarab unit has permission to re-enter play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:


You bring no evidence that once a model is removed from play all rules regarding it are null and void. Indeed, the very concept of it is denied by virtue of the very rule you are trying to invoke, along with numerous other rules which have provided similar benefits (Send in the Next Wave, Endless Swarm, etc).

Once a unit is removed from play it is a non-entity in the game and does not interact with the game in any way. The rules must specify that they can affect units that are in this 'removed from play' limbo. Units that are not in play skip all the regular rules of play unless there is specific exemption (e.g. 'Reserve Rolls' and 'From the Sands, We Rise').

Otherwise, the game breaks and all the zooming flyers in reserve self-destruct on turn one by being forced to go through the Movement Phase.


Also, it's interesting that the discussion has now fixated on the IC issue.

So I guess you all have conceded that a unit of 12 scarabs will return to play as unit of 12 scarabs?

It seems pretty clear that RAW supports that.

The unit of 12 is removed from play as part of a unit that is "completely destroyed" (ie wiped out) and the rule gives that unit permission to return to play and does not specify "starting" or "original".

Nobody has conceded the 12 Scarab thing. We're trying to address the IC thing first.

Claiming victory like that when the issue hasn't been properly addressed is a poor debate tactic and damages your credibility.

So by your claim, the IC is still part of the unit when he dies right? At what point does he separate for the purpose of adding up victory points? Or are you claiming that killing a unit of Warriors with an IC attached only grants 1 Victory Point?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Actually, that IS what the rules say. When the rest of the unit is wiped out, it returns to being its own unit at the end of that Phase. There is no requirement that the IC still be on the board when this happens.

The IC is removed from the game at that point and not part of the game until the unit returns to play. Removed from the game is removed from the game.

This is called hypocritical. Your claiming the rules apply while the model is off the board, yet claiming the rules dont apply when the model is off the board. The rule is clear, when the unit dies, the IC becomes separate.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:


Units in Reserves are not in play, but they are still subject to the rules of units in play.

Explain what happens to Zooming Flyers on turn one of the Movement Phase. The Movement Phase does not specify just units in play. So by your logic the Zooming Flyer in Reserves would be required to move.

Movement rules only affect models on the table or Arriving From Reserves. Can you show anything different?

Charistoph wrote:

An IC in a unit is part of the unit until he leaves it. He can leave it by dying, moving out of coherency, or having the rest of the unit die.

Read the IC rules. The IC does not leave the unit when he dies. He can move out of coherency and detach during the movement phase. If the rest of the unit dies, he will detach next phase.

Sure he does, as he is no longer in coherency at the end of the next Movement Phase, he has left the unit. If you have been removed from play, you are not an n coherency.

None of these things transpire for the IC that is removed from play as part of a scarab unit. The IC is removed from play and is skipping play until the scarab unit has permission to re-enter play.

If the rest of the unit is wiped out, it is not considered wiped out if the IC died, too? Random illogic on that one.

Charistoph wrote:
You bring no evidence that once a model is removed from play all rules regarding it are null and void. Indeed, the very concept of it is denied by virtue of the very rule you are trying to invoke, along with numerous other rules which have provided similar benefits (Send in the Next Wave, Endless Swarm, etc).

Once a unit is removed from play it is a non-entity in the game and does not interact with the game in any way. The rules must specify that they can affect units that are in this 'removed from play' limbo. Units that are not in play skip all the regular rules of play unless there is specific exemption (e.g. 'Reserve Rolls' and 'From the Sands, We Rise').

Otherwise, the game breaks and all the zooming flyers in reserve self-destruct on turn one by being forced to go through the Movement Phase.

That was not your case, though. You said that units that were not in play could not be acted upon, but quoted nothing to support this. You insist that they cannot be acted upon, but there are exceptions. The IC rule about reverting to a single unit is not dependent on the IC being in play to be considered, as the Objectives rules in the Purge The Alien Mission remind us.

So, no, an IC in a Swept Warrior unit is removed from the unit at the start of the next Turn.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:


Units in Reserves are not in play, but they are still subject to the rules of units in play.

Explain what happens to Zooming Flyers on turn one of the Movement Phase. The Movement Phase does not specify just units in play. So by your logic the Zooming Flyer in Reserves would be required to move.

Movement rules only affect models on the table or Arriving From Reserves. Can you show anything different?

The Zooming Flyer that is not in play either skips the Movement Phase and is not subject to the Movement Phase rules because it is not in play (which is my argument).

-- OR --

The Zooming Flyer (that is not in play) participates in the Movement Phase and is subject to the Movement Phase rules (which is your argument).

The Zooming Flyer is required to move at least 18" in the Movement Phase or it wrecks.

You are required to show how a Zooming Flyer successfully moves 18" on the turn 1 Movement Phase (to avoid auto-wrecking) or concede that the Zooming Flyer is not subject to the rules of the Movement Phase since it is out of play

My argument lets the Zooming Flyers live. Your argument breaks the game and Zooming Flyers auto-wreck on turn one. Your argument is wholly untenable.


The game breaks unless units that are removed from play are exempted from regular rules of play and only subject to specific rules that apply to the removed from game zone.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

Sure he does, as he is no longer in coherency at the end of the next Movement Phase, he has left the unit. If you have been removed from play, you are not an n coherency.

You are required to show that the rules of the Movement Phase (and other phases like the Shooting Phase and Pyschic Phase) apply to units that are not in play.

If they do apply then Zooming Flyers auto-wreck on turn one, units in reserve can start moving about and simply walk onto the battlefield from their spots on the side of the table, and units in reserve can start shooting at units that are in LOS from their position on the side of the table off the battlefield.

A model that is not in play skips the regular rules of play until it enters or re-enters play. A model that is not in play is only subject to the rules that address this 'removed from game' zone and will become subject to the regular rules of play when it enters play.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
You bring no evidence that once a model is removed from play all rules regarding it are null and void. Indeed, the very concept of it is denied by virtue of the very rule you are trying to invoke, along with numerous other rules which have provided similar benefits (Send in the Next Wave, Endless Swarm, etc).

Once a unit is removed from play it is a non-entity in the game and does not interact with the game in any way. The rules must specify that they can affect units that are in this 'removed from play' limbo. Units that are not in play skip all the regular rules of play unless there is specific exemption (e.g. 'Reserve Rolls' and 'From the Sands, We Rise').

Otherwise, the game breaks and all the zooming flyers in reserve self-destruct on turn one by being forced to go through the Movement Phase.

That was not your case, though. You said that units that were not in play could not be acted upon, but quoted nothing to support this. You insist that they cannot be acted upon, but there are exceptions. The IC rule about reverting to a single unit is not dependent on the IC being in play to be considered, as the Objectives rules in the Purge The Alien Mission remind us.

So, no, an IC in a Swept Warrior unit is removed from the unit at the start of the next Turn.

I have clarified my case for your benefit since I was being vague earlier. A model that is not in play is not subject to the regular rules of play until the model is in play. A model that is not in play is only subject to the rules that specifically address the "removed from play" zone.

You are required to show how the IC rules that would detach the IC from the unit of scarabs (e.g. coherency, rest of the unit dying) are specifically affecting the "removed from play" zone. Otherwise the IC that is part of the unit of scarabs in the "removed from game" zone skips that rule since its not in play. The IC is held in the non-interactive limbo until he re-renters play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:
So by your claim, the IC is still part of the unit when he dies right? At what point does he separate for the purpose of adding up victory points? Or are you claiming that killing a unit of Warriors with an IC attached only grants 1 Victory Point?

The rule specifically applies at the end of the game and specifically applies to units that are not on the board at the end of the game. What leads you to believe that it would apply earlier than that?



This rule also means that no victory points are scored for a unit that is destroyed and then re-enters play. The Kill Point is tallied only at the end of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
This is called hypocritical. Your claiming the rules apply while the model is off the board, yet claiming the rules dont apply when the model is off the board. The rule is clear, when the unit dies, the IC becomes separate.

Sorry, my lack of clarity could lead you to think I was hypocritical. I have clarified my case for your benefit since I was being vague earlier. A model that is not in play is not subject to the regular rules of play until the model is in play. A model that is not in play is only subject to the rules that specifically address the "removed from play" zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody has conceded the 12 Scarab thing. We're trying to address the IC thing first.

Claiming victory like that when the issue hasn't been properly addressed is a poor debate tactic and damages your credibility.

The thread has fallen silent on the issue because there simply is no RAW counter-argument to my RAW argument.

The unit of 12 scarabs gets "wiped out" and removed from play and the models are put on the side of the table. The rule triggers and the unit of scarabs re-enters play.

At no point does any rule specify "original" or "starting" unit, so it can be unequivocally asserted that it is the full pile of 12 scarab models that re-enters play.

But why 12?

Why not the number of models that were removed when the unit died?

If I had a 10-strong scarab unit, added 2 in T1 (for 12) lost 6 in T2 (6 left) and then had the remaining 6 killed, why would 12 return and not 6 or 10?

The unit that died only had 6 models. It have had 12 or 10 at points in the battle, but when it died it was 6 strong. Why is 12 returning more valid than 6 or 10 returning?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
But why 12?

Why not the number of models that were removed when the unit died?

If I had a 10-strong scarab unit, added 2 in T1 (for 12) lost 6 in T2 (6 left) and then had the remaining 6 killed, why would 12 return and not 6 or 10?

The unit that died only had 6 models. It have had 12 or 10 at points in the battle, but when it died it was 6 strong. Why is 12 returning more valid than 6 or 10 returning?

Because all 12 of the models were removed as casualties from the scarab unit and there are 12 scarab models in the removed from play pile for a scarab unit that is designated "completely destroyed" per the rules.




The unit of 12 scarabs is not considered wiped out when just the original 9 are removed as casualties. All 12 of the scarabs must be 'wiped out' for the unit to be considered 'wiped out'. At that point there will be a unit of 12 scarabs that are removed from play on the side of the tabletop and designated "completely destroyed". The rule is triggered and returns the unit of 12 to play next turn.

The rules only support returning the 12 that comprise the entire unit and that were designated "completely destroyed" and do not support returning "original" or "starting" size or some other random number.

So you're saying that dead models are still considered part of the unit the were removed from.

I can see that being the case - as far as I can tell the rules never state they aren't - however it does bring up problems when it comes to unit coherency (as all models in a unit must stay in coherency, and if dead models are still counted as being models in the unit then you need to get within 2" of them... somehow).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So you're saying that dead models are still considered part of the unit the were removed from.

I can see that being the case - as far as I can tell the rules never state they aren't - however it does bring up problems when it comes to unit coherency (as all models in a unit must stay in coherency, and if dead models are still counted as being models in the unit then you need to get within 2" of them... somehow).

The scarab models are part of the unit but are in a "removed from play" zone and so are not subject to the regular rules affecting models in play. The coherency rule must specifically address the removed from play zone or the coherency rule simply does not apply to models that are not in play.


Similarly, the coherency rule does not apply to models that are not in play due to being in Reserves. You do not measure coherency for models in Reserve.

Similarly, regular Movement Phase rules, Shooting rules, Psychic Phase rules, Assault rules are not in effect for models that are not in play. Models in reserve do not move around and shoot at one another in the not in play Reserve zone. Zooming flyers do not blow up turn one because they fail to move 18". The models in Reserve skip regular play until a Reserve Roll allows them to enter play. Models that are not in play can only be addressed by rules that specifically address the removed from play zone.

I have a solution! Just dont abuse the formation even more by spawning extra scarabs! We all already abuse it enough....

@ col_impact:
Except that isn't what the rules say at all.
You even quoted the rules yourself, all they say is that the models are removed from the table and placed to the side, not that they are no longer subject to the rules of the game.

Indeed, the only time that section refers to the game rules is to say "Models that are 'removed from play' by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the games rules are concerned."

So yes, models that are removed as casualties are still subject to the game rules unless said game rules say they only apply to models on the table, etc, or other exceptions are made.

FireSkullz2 wrote:
I have a solution! Just dont abuse the formation even more by spawning extra scarabs! We all already abuse it enough....

In this forum we discuss what is rules as written. We set aside the issue of whether something is OP or not because of the rules as written.

If the rules as written do indeed lead to someplace that is OP then I am all for nerfing the rule interaction. Sometimes GW writes rules that are loose and lead to OP rule interactions.

But let's figure out what RAW is first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@ col_impact:
Except that isn't what the rules say at all.
You even quoted the rules yourself, all they say is that the models are removed from the table and placed to the side, not that they are no longer subject to the rules of the game.

Indeed, the only time that section refers to the game rules is to say "Models that are 'removed from play' by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the games rules are concerned."

So yes, models that are removed as casualties are still subject to the game rules unless said game rules say they only apply to models on the table, etc, or other exceptions are made.

Incorrect. I am not saying that the models that are removed from the table are no longer subject to the rules of the game. I am saying that models that are not in play are not subject to the rules of models in play.

Otherwise, you need to explain what happens turn one to the Zooming Flyers in reserve.

And you need to explain why my units in Reserve cannot simply move onto the table top if I place them 1" outside the battlefield on the side of the table. Or shoot onto the table or at units on the battlefield or other units in Reserve.

The Shooting Rules and line of sight rules do not specify units in play. So you need to explain why my Tachyon arrows with infinite range cannot target the opponent's units in Reserve that can be clearly seen at the side of the table.

Not in play means not in play and so not subject to the rules of models in play. Coherency is a rule for models in play.

Models that are not in play are only subject to the rules affecting models in the specific 'not in play' zone.

You can say that all you want, but until you find a rule that says that (which is what your argument is based off) it isn't true.


Now, we can assume that the writers intended for models in reserve/removed from play to not be subject to the Movement, Shooting, etc rules, but no such rule actually exists in the book. (Another reason why playing the game entirely RAW doesn't work)

Also the whole 'not in play' argument requires the models to be removed by an attack or rule that says they are 'removed from play'. All models removed from play are treated as being removed as casualties, but not the other way round.

So RAW you are wrong. RAI you are right unless you also consider that the rules think ICs are a separate unit when killed (From the Eternal War mission Purge the Alien - "Remeber that ICs and DTs are individual units and award Victory Points of destroyed"), so RAI an IC joined to the Warrior or Scarab unit wouldn't come back.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
All models removed from play are treated as being removed as casualties, but not the other way round.

Incorrect.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
so RAI an IC joined to the Warrior or Scarab unit wouldn't come back.

You are of course free to house rule any way you like. Just mark your contribution as HYWPI.

I'm still technically correct (the best kind of correct), removed as a casualty does not equal removed from play. The other way round is true, though.


And that snarky HYWPI comment applies to your posts as well. In your case it's much more pressing as you label your HYWPI arguments as RAW all the freaking time. Also note I clearly labelled it as RAI, as that's what it is.

You are also of course free to play a game of 40k where the Movement, Shooting, Psychic, and Assault rules apply to units in play as well as units that are not in play.

That would mean that you get to put your units in reserve and put them on the table side along your opponent's deployment edge and simply walk them on to the Battlefield turn one right in your opponent's deployment zone.

That would mean that you will also be able to draw line of sight and shoot at your opponent's units in Reserve from your units on the Battlefield or even your from your own units in Reserve.

Your opponent of course will also be able to do the same and soon you will have a game that is being played over an area much larger than the Battlefield.

Not only will you find that you are playing a game of 40k which nobody else plays but you will be violating the definition of the Battlefield.



The game is played over the battlefield. If a unit is not on the battlefield (ie set to the side in Reserves or set to the side removed from play as a casualty) it is not a part of the regular game play and not taking part in the regular rules of play. Units in 'not in play' zones can only enter play via specific rules that address them in the removed from play zone and enable them to do so. A rule does not affect a removed from game zone unless it specifically has the power to do so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm still technically correct (the best kind of correct), removed as a casualty does not equal removed from play. The other way round is true, though.

Incorrect. Everything that is removed as a casualty is removed from play. Simply read the rule.







Removed as casualty = removed from play. Not on the battlefield = not in play. Removed from the table and placed to one side = removed from play.


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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also note I clearly labelled it as RAI, as that's what it is.

You cannot label it RAI because you cannot read the mind of the rule writer. The rule writer could have easily intended ICs that join the unit to re-spawn with the unit and you cannot prove otherwise.

The only time you can use RAI is when something is patently obvious (e.g. the rules completely break and fall apart unless you do things this obvious way that is not explicitly spelled out in the rules because it can be safely assumed that the rules writer would not publish obviously broken rules.)

No I'm correct, simply read the rule.

Spoiled part 1 says they are removed from play as a casualty if their S, T, or W are reduced to 1. 3 specific circumstances.

The second and third spoilers don't refer to models being in play at all, just that models that are casualties are removed from the table and that you play the game over a battlefield. Woo? That doesn't say that models that are removed from the board are not in play, just that you play the game over a battlefield.

The rules do not state that a model removed from the table as a casualty is always removed from play. Again, still technically correct.

And did I ever say I'd play with casualties and reserves still being able to do things in the various phases? No, I just said that RAW there is nothing restricting them from doing so. I also know you know that because you quoted the post in which I said RAI that isn't the case.


REally playing the "You aren't psychic!!!!1one!" card again? Really? Even after we went over this before and how that's blatantly wrong?

Ah well, if RAI isn't a thing because no one is psychic I guess we'll have to play without the Firespear Strike Force and Canoptek Harvest Formation and go through the various phases of the game with dead models and models in Reserves. I can't wait to shoot you with my dead models! Except I can't, as the game stops in the Psychic phase becuase nothing works. Ah well. Are you going to say otherwise? Unless you're psychic you can't say it's obvious! How do you know they didn't intend for the game to not function?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No I'm correct, simply read the rule.

Spoiled part 1 says they are removed from play as a casualty if their S, T, or W are reduced to 1. 3 specific circumstances.

The second and third spoilers don't refer to models being in play at all, just that models that are casualties are removed from the table and that you play the game over a battlefield. Woo? That doesn't say that models that are removed from the board are not in play, just that you play the game over a battlefield.

The rules do not state that a model removed from the table as a casualty is always removed from play. Again, still technically correct.

And did I ever say I'd play with casualties and reserves still being able to do things in the various phases? No, I just said that RAW there is nothing restricting them from doing so. I also know you know that because you quoted the post in which I said RAI that isn't the case.


REally playing the "You aren't psychic!!!!1one!" card again? Really? Even after we went over this before and how that's blatantly wrong?

Ah well, if RAI isn't a thing because no one is psychic I guess we'll have to play without the Firespear Strike Force and Canoptek Harvest Formation and go through the various phases of the game with dead models and models in Reserves. I can't wait to shoot you with my dead models! Except I can't, as the game stops in the Psychic phase becuase nothing works. Ah well. Are you going to say otherwise? Unless you're psychic you can't say it's obvious! How do you know they didn't intend for the game to not function?

You can only assume that the writers intend the game to function. If you assumed the opposite, that the writers intend the game to not function, then you are a fool for playing it.

So . . . so as long as you endeavor to play the game in good faith you assume that the writers are also endeavoring to provide in good faith a functioning game.

All of this is patently obvious. And only patently obvious things can be labeled RAI.

If you stray from the obvious and start making major assumptions then you cannot really assert RAI because at that point you really do not know what the rule writer definitely had in mind. When you make assumptions you really are house ruling.

The game of 40k is not infallible. There are areas where you rely on patently obvious RAI (where the assumption you make is that the game is meant to function so you choose the functioning path) to get to be able to play the game. But otherwise you can generally follow RAW.

So the only thing you can safely assert as RAI in the context of this thread is that the regular Movement Phase rules, Shooting rules, Psychic Phase rules, Assault rules are not in effect for models that are not in play, because the alternative leads to wholly broken and unplayable game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No I'm correct, simply read the rule.

Spoiled part 1 says they are removed from play as a casualty if their S, T, or W are reduced to 0. 3 specific circumstances.

The wounds reduced to zero is what happens in regular combat and accounts for the vast majority of cases where models are removed from play as casualties. I guess you didn't realize that shooting attacks and cc attacks are popular ways of reducing a models Wounds to zero.

So when we are talking about a scarab model or the IC being removed as a casualty we are indeed talking about removed from play because we are talking about the wounds being reduced to zero or removal from play due to Stomp or something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


Ah well, if RAI isn't a thing because no one is psychic I guess we'll have to play without the Firespear Strike Force and Canoptek Harvest Formation and go through the various phases of the game with dead models and models in Reserves. I can't wait to shoot you with my dead models! Except I can't, as the game stops in the Psychic phase becuase nothing works. Ah well. Are you going to say otherwise? Unless you're psychic you can't say it's obvious! How do you know they didn't intend for the game to not function?

RAI is a thing and I never said otherwise. RAI can only be asserted in patently obvious cases, so the Firespear Strike Force and Canoptek Harvest are meant to actually be played and removed from play really means removed from play.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. I am not saying that the models that are removed from the table are no longer subject to the rules of the game. I am saying that models that are not in play are not subject to the rules of models in play.

Provide a quote first before just asserting you are correct. Especially when other things have proved you wrong in this situation. For example, the REMINDER in the Purge the Alien Objective rules or the rules of a Codex Space Marine Captain on a Bike allowing for Space Marine Bikes to be Troops. Is the reminder too much and not applicable? Do Space Marine Bikes return to Fast Attack Roles when the Captain dies (a pertinent question for a certain mission)?

You are proceeding on assumptions. Without a quote to support your statements, it is not RAW.

So, to coin your phrase, properly mark your posts HIWPI till you can actually provide a quote supporting this position.