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I tried a search and couldn't find anything. The New Retribution Phalanx formation says :

From the Sands, We Rise: If the unit of Necron Warriors or Canopek Scarabs from a Retribution Phalanx is wiped out, it can return to the battlefield at the start of your next turn. The unit must set up within 3″ of the Necron Overlord from this Formation,

So the unit that comes back, warriors or scarabs, when they are placed can they move and charge that turn they come back?

 knightpredator wrote:
I tried a search and couldn't find anything. The New Retribution Phalanx formation says :

From the Sands, We Rise: If the unit of Necron Warriors or Canopek Scarabs from a Retribution Phalanx is wiped out, it can return to the battlefield at the start of your next turn. The unit must set up within 3″ of the Necron Overlord from this Formation,

So the unit that comes back, warriors or scarabs, when they are placed can they move and charge that turn they come back?

I don't see any reason why not. They aren't coming in from Reserves or anything. They're simply being setup.

Not only is the answer yes, but notice that it says that the "unit" has to be set up within 3'' of the overlord. Not "The model must set up within 3″ of the Necron Overlord", nor "The unit must set up wholly within 3″ of the Necron Overlord". It's therefore entirely possible for a ten-strong squad to form a conga line nearly 30'' long, pretty much guaranteeing a charge (except for overwatch) against anyone on the board.

GW, learn to write frelling rules...

Mallich wrote:
Not only is the answer yes, but notice that it says that the "unit" has to be set up within 3'' of the overlord. Not "The model must set up within 3″ of the Necron Overlord", nor "The unit must set up wholly within 3″ of the Necron Overlord". It's therefore entirely possible for a ten-strong squad to form a conga line nearly 30'' long, pretty much guaranteeing a charge (except for overwatch) against anyone on the board.

GW, learn to write frelling rules...

Yea, the congo line is a beauty to behold in action. I have a VSG in my list so that the scarab unit can trail a model with a toe in the VSG bubble to make the whole unit effectively invulnerable to small arms overwatch fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the rule is somewhat vague. It does not specify that the starting or original unit returns, only that the unit returns.

What happens if a unit of scarabs whose unit size has been increased by Spyders is returned to play?

What happens if a unit of scarabs with ICs attached return to play? ICs are part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Even though the answers to those questions might seem obvious from a RAI perspective, what does the RAW say?

col_impact wrote:

Mallich wrote:
Not only is the answer yes, but notice that it says that the "unit" has to be set up within 3'' of the overlord. Not "The model must set up within 3″ of the Necron Overlord", nor "The unit must set up wholly within 3″ of the Necron Overlord". It's therefore entirely possible for a ten-strong squad to form a conga line nearly 30'' long, pretty much guaranteeing a charge (except for overwatch) against anyone on the board.

GW, learn to write frelling rules...

Yea, the congo line is a beauty to behold in action. I have a VSG in my list so that the scarab unit can trail a model with a toe in the VSG bubble to make the whole unit effectively invulnerable to small arms overwatch fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the rule is somewhat vague. It does not specify that the starting or original unit returns, only that the unit returns.

What happens if a unit of scarabs whose unit size has been increased by Spyders is returned to play?

What happens if a unit of scarabs with ICs attached return to play? ICs are part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Even though the answers to those questions might seem obvious from a RAI perspective, what does the RAW say?

This is a permissive ruleset. You'd need permission to return EXTRA Scarabs or ICs along with "the unit", which is described on your army list and starts with a fixed number of models. In effect, RaW has nothing to say, because this is not something that you're ever told to do.

A) I have a unit of 12 scarabs that gets wiped away. Spyders add bases to the unit itself so it is indeed a unit of 12, not a unit of 9 with extras attached. The rule gives permission to return the unit to play. The unit of 12 is returned to play.

B) I have a unit of scarabs that gets wiped away while an IC is attached to it. The rule gives permission to return the unit to play. As we know, ICs "count as part of the unit for all rules purposes". The unit of scarabs is returned to play with the IC attached.

Permission is clearly granted to return the unit to play.

Has it been discussed whether a Ghost Ark would return with the Warriors? Does both the Ghost Ark and the Warriors need to die before they return?

Zimko wrote:
Has it been discussed whether a Ghost Ark would return with the Warriors? Does both the Ghost Ark and the Warriors need to die before they return?

A Ghost Ark is an entirely separate unit that is not part of the unit of Warriors. It is just a unit that was purchased on the ALE of the Warriors.

So no, a Ghost Ark would not return with the Warriors or need to be destroyed before the Warriors return.

col_impact wrote:
A) I have a unit of 12 scarabs that gets wiped away. Spyders add bases to the unit itself so it is indeed a unit of 12, not a unit of 9 with extras attached. The rule gives permission to return the unit to play. The unit of 12 is returned to play.

B) I have a unit of scarabs that gets wiped away while an IC is attached to it. The rule gives permission to return the unit to play. As we know, ICs "count as part of the unit for all rules purposes". The unit of scarabs is returned to play with the IC attached.

Permission is clearly granted to return the unit to play.

Sigh.

1. Demonstrate that the Scarabs are all removed AT THE SAME TIME. I would content that since wounds are almost always allocated one at a time, that when you remove the last Scarab, there is only one Scarab in the unit. By your own logic, you'd only return that one Scarab as he was the only remaining member of the unit when it got wiped out.

2. Demonstrate permission for the IC to be considered a part of the unit at the start of YOUR NEXT TURN after the unit has been wiped out. Clearly, the IC is a member of the unit when he's in play and attached to the unit. I think you'll have a hard time demonstrating that he's a member of the unit when he's not in play and neither is the unit he was previously attached to before being killed.

 Kriswall wrote:


Sigh.

1. Demonstrate that the Scarabs are all removed AT THE SAME TIME. I would content that since wounds are almost always allocated one at a time, that when you remove the last Scarab, there is only one Scarab in the unit. By your own logic, you'd only return that one Scarab as he was the only remaining member of the unit when it got wiped out.

Incorrect. I don't have to demonstrate anything. Spyders added bases to the unit so it became a unit with a unit size of 12 permanently. The rule returns the unit to play, which in this case is a unit of 12. The rule does not say "original" or "starting" or anything to that effect. The burden of proof is on you since I quite clearly and uequivocally have a unit of 12 scarabs and a rule that returns that unit to play. You have to show that I somehow do not have a unit of 12 scarabs or that the rule somehow says "starting".

Technically, when I remove the last scarab unit I do not have a unit of one scarab (there are zero models on the table - I do not even have that one), but I do have a unit of 12 scarabs that has been "wiped out". So that's the unit that gets returned to play.

 Kriswall wrote:
2. Demonstrate permission for the IC to be considered a part of the unit at the start of YOUR NEXT TURN after the unit has been wiped out. Clearly, the IC is a member of the unit when he's in play and attached to the unit. I think you'll have a hard time demonstrating that he's a member of the unit when he's not in play and neither is the unit he was previously attached to before being killed.

The rule triggers once and only once when the unit is wiped out and causes an effect to happen "at the start of your next turn". If the IC is attached when the unit is wiped out, the IC will return to play along with it, since it was at that point in time "part of the unit for all rules purposes."

Even if the IC is the last to die, he does not detach from the scarabs unless he is in play at the start of the following phase.



This rules interaction underscores a black hole in the rules with regards to units that are put into an undefined limbo with effects such as these. When the scarabs are wiped out they are removed from the game. They are no longer in play or subject to any rules, but nonetheless they come back, because of a rule triggered last turn.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


Sigh.

1. Demonstrate that the Scarabs are all removed AT THE SAME TIME. I would content that since wounds are almost always allocated one at a time, that when you remove the last Scarab, there is only one Scarab in the unit. By your own logic, you'd only return that one Scarab as he was the only remaining member of the unit when it got wiped out.

Incorrect. I don't have to demonstrate anything. Spyders added bases to the unit so it became a unit with a unit size of 12 permanently. The rule returns the unit to play, which in this case is a unit of 12. The rule does not say "original" or "starting" or anything to that effect. The burden of proof is on you since I quite clearly and uequivocally have a unit of 12 scarabs and a rule that returns that unit to play. You have to show that I somehow do not have a unit of 12 scarabs or that the rule somehow says "starting".

Technically, when I remove the last scarab unit I do not have a unit of one scarab (there are zero models on the table - I do not even have that one), but I do have a unit of 12 scarabs that has been "wiped out". So that's the unit that gets returned to play.

 Kriswall wrote:
2. Demonstrate permission for the IC to be considered a part of the unit at the start of YOUR NEXT TURN after the unit has been wiped out. Clearly, the IC is a member of the unit when he's in play and attached to the unit. I think you'll have a hard time demonstrating that he's a member of the unit when he's not in play and neither is the unit he was previously attached to before being killed.

The rule triggers once and only once when the unit is wiped out and causes an effect to happen "at the start of your next turn". If the IC is attached when the unit is wiped out, the IC will return to play along with it, since it was at that point in time "part of the unit for all rules purposes."

Even if the IC is the last to die, he does not detach from the scarabs unless he is in play at the start of the following phase.

Spoiler:

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

You just proved Kriswall right twice in one post. . .

 EnTyme wrote:


You just proved Kriswall right twice in one post. . .

You just proved me right just now in your post! LOL

You will have to elaborate, otherwise it's a contentless posting.

There's no point arguing. You're making an assumption that an IC who is not in play and not in reserves CAN be attached to a unit that is not in play and not in reserves. There is no rules support for this in the rulebook at all.

 Kriswall wrote:
There's no point arguing. You're making an assumption that an IC who is not in play and not in reserves CAN be attached to a unit that is not in play and not in reserves. There is no rules support for this in the rulebook at all.

No assumption is made. The rule clearly indicates that the unit of scarabs that is wiped out is returned to play and the IC is part of that unit for all rules purposes. The IC is only permitted to detach from the unit in specified circumstances and removed from play is not one of them.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
There's no point arguing. You're making an assumption that an IC who is not in play and not in reserves CAN be attached to a unit that is not in play and not in reserves. There is no rules support for this in the rulebook at all.

No assumption is made. The rule clearly indicates that the unit of scarabs that is wiped out is returned to play and the IC is part of that unit for all rules purposes.

"If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Explain to me how he's still a part of the unit THE NEXT TURN when he has become a unit of one model at the start of the NEXT PHASE.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
There's no point arguing. You're making an assumption that an IC who is not in play and not in reserves CAN be attached to a unit that is not in play and not in reserves. There is no rules support for this in the rulebook at all.

No assumption is made. The rule clearly indicates that the unit of scarabs that is wiped out is returned to play and the IC is part of that unit for all rules purposes.

"If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Explain to me how he's still a part of the unit THE NEXT TURN when he has become a unit of one model at the start of the NEXT PHASE.

The IC is removed from the game at that point in time and not subject to rules for units that are in the game. When the unit returns to play the IC becomes once agains subject to rules for units that are in the game.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
There's no point arguing. You're making an assumption that an IC who is not in play and not in reserves CAN be attached to a unit that is not in play and not in reserves. There is no rules support for this in the rulebook at all.

No assumption is made. The rule clearly indicates that the unit of scarabs that is wiped out is returned to play and the IC is part of that unit for all rules purposes.

"If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Explain to me how he's still a part of the unit THE NEXT TURN when he has become a unit of one model at the start of the NEXT PHASE.

The IC is removed from the game at that point in time and not subject to rules for units that are in the game. When the unit returns to play the IC becomes once agains subject to rules for units that are in the game.

Spoiler:

REMOVED AS A CASUALTY AND COMPLETELY DESTROYED

Models that are removed as casualties are removed from the table and placed to one side. When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.

Models that are ‘removed from play’ by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned.

If he's not subject the rules for units in the game, then why is he still allowed to use the IC rule to star attached to the unit?

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
There's no point arguing. You're making an assumption that an IC who is not in play and not in reserves CAN be attached to a unit that is not in play and not in reserves. There is no rules support for this in the rulebook at all.

No assumption is made. The rule clearly indicates that the unit of scarabs that is wiped out is returned to play and the IC is part of that unit for all rules purposes.

"If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Explain to me how he's still a part of the unit THE NEXT TURN when he has become a unit of one model at the start of the NEXT PHASE.

The IC is removed from the game at that point in time and not subject to rules for units that are in the game. When the unit returns to play the IC becomes once agains subject to rules for units that are in the game.

Spoiler:

REMOVED AS A CASUALTY AND COMPLETELY DESTROYED

Models that are removed as casualties are removed from the table and placed to one side. When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.

Models that are ‘removed from play’ by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned.

If he's not subject the rules for units in the game, then why is he still allowed to use the IC rule to star attached to the unit?

The IC is in a pile on the side of table and part of a unit of scarabs that is designated as "completely destroyed" ie "wiped out" and missing out on any rules to detach since he is not in play.

That pile has permission to return to play.


You should also note that in the case of the unit of 12 scarabs there is also a pile on the side of the table with 12 scarabs designated as "completely destroyed" ie "wiped out".

That pile of 12 scarabs also has permission to return to play. The rule does not indicate "starting" or "original" so the full pile of 12 returns to play.

So you completely side stepped my question

 CrownAxe wrote:
So you completely side stepped my question

It's been answered. The IC is in a pile on the side of the table as part of a unit of scarabs that is designated "completely destroyed".

The rule gives permission for that unit to return to play.

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
So you completely side stepped my question

It's been answered. The IC is in a pile on the side of the table as part of a unit of scarabs that is designated "completely destroyed".

The rule gives permission for that pile to return to play.

'
Not what i asked. Go reread my post

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
So you completely side stepped my question

It's been answered. The IC is in a pile on the side of the table as part of a unit of scarabs that is designated "completely destroyed".

The rule gives permission for that pile to return to play.

'
Not what i asked. Go reread my post

The IC exits play as part of the unit and is part of the unit that becomes designated "completely destroyed" on the side of the table.

How is the IC able to take advantage of the rule saying he's a part of the unit when off the table, but he's NOT able to use the rule saying he's no longer a part of the unit cause they died?

If "The IC is removed from the game at that point in time and not subject to rules for units that are in the game" then why is he allowed to still count as a part of the scarab unit for all rules purposes?

 Kriswall wrote:
How is the IC able to take advantage of the rule saying he's a part of the unit when off the table, but he's NOT able to use the rule saying he's no longer a part of the unit cause they died?

The rules place him on the side of the table as part of the unit. That state of affairs can only be changed if/when the unit is back on the table. The IC is in a "not in game" zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
If "The IC is removed from the game at that point in time and not subject to rules for units that are in the game" then why is he allowed to still count as a part of the scarab unit for all rules purposes?

anwered above


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I guess you all have conceded that a unit of 12 scarabs will return to play as unit of 12 scarabs?

It seems pretty clear that RAW supports that.

The unit of 12 is removed from play as part of a unit that is "completely destroyed" (ie wiped out) and the rule gives that unit permission to return to play and does not specify "starting" or "original".

Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Yeah impact, I MIGHT buy the character coming back if they died before the entire unit was wiped out or everyone died at the same time, but the HQ will definitely be their own unit when everyone else dies.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
How is the IC able to take advantage of the rule saying he's a part of the unit when off the table, but he's NOT able to use the rule saying he's no longer a part of the unit cause they died?

The rules place him on the side of the table as part of the unit. That state of affairs can only be changed if/when the unit is back on the table. The IC is in a "not in game" zone.

Show the rule that places him to the side of the table WITH the unit. Also show the rule that shows the IC is still joined to the unit. The IC only counts as part of the unit "for all rules purposes" when he is joined.

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

This rules discounts your IC claim. Long story short, your claiming "rules" but have nothing in the rulebook to cite other than your opinion.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nobody agrees with you. Your justification is tenuous at best. The general consensus is that the unit will return as listed on the army list, with no previously attached ICs and no additional Scarabs.

This thread can now be locked.

That is not what the rules say.

Popular consensus does not change RAW.

You are of course free to house rule it the way you like.

Sigh...

So explain this. Step me through the process that wipes out both IC and Scarabs at the same time. The reason I ask is because in my mind, one of two things happens... Either the IC dies first, thus removing him from the unit and placing him to the side, or the Scarabs die first, again, removing the IC from the unit and causing him to reform his own unit.

Fun facts...

1. In the Shooting Phase, wounds are allocated "one at a time", so it's impossible for Scarabs and IC to be removed as casualties simultaneously.
2. In the Assault Phase, wounds are allocated "just like in the Shooting Phase", i.e., one at a time, so again, it's impossible for Scarabs and IC to be removed as casualties simultaneously.

I've eliminated standard shooting and assault caused wounds. Please explain your idea about how the models are removed as casualties simultaneously.