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 SharkoutofWata wrote:
My favorite is still 'the whole nine yards'. Means to refer to every bit of the subject or to do everything that the subject can entail. Comes from WW2 dogfighting when a fighter plane (might have been the Mustang, might have been a Spitfire, I don't remember) had nine yards of ammunition in the wings. Giving something the whole nine yards meant shooting every last bullet out of your guns at it. Usually constitutes overkill.

The phrase is much older than that, the "WW1/2 length of an ammo belt" thing is a bit of an urban myth, the phrase appears in American news papers from 1907 onwards , though its actual origin is unclear.

Sources:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-whole-nine-yards.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_whole_nine_yards

That said, I've never been able to find a picture or copy of the original newspaper from 1907 (I'm a scientist, I demand proof!), but the phrase does seem to crop up a lot prior to WW1.

Been thinking lately about the magnificence of the word "chuff".

Chuff alone is slang for female genitalia, or occasionally, arse. A bad driver would be "Right up my chuff." regardless of gender of speaker.

However when used as a verb, "Chuffed!" means thrilled. You can be "Chuffed to bits!" about something good.

"Chuffing"/"Chuffer" are low grade replacements for actual swear words when used, like you might say "sugar!" instead of "gak!"...

"Chuffy" is northern English slang for a boner.

Chuffing hell indeed...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
For some reason this morning I used the British phrase, "I bet he's not short of a bob or two" when speaking with my wife. She did not understand this at all, being Japanese.

It means "he must be pretty rich", coming from the shilling coin that was nicknamed a bob, and went out of use in 1974 when the UK changed to decimal currency. The shilling then became worth 5 New Pence and was generally called a 5P piece as we still call them today.

This probably means that no-one under the age of 40 would ever have used the word "bob" even if they were British. And, in fact, my daughter, who is only 16, did not understand this expression when I tried it on her, though she guessed from context it might be something to do with money.

This made me feel old and sad, but it also made me interested in what expressions from different countries are based on old things that are vanishing from daily life, and whether they are going out of use as the culture changes.

For instance, will the expression "I've got it taped" -- I've learned it well -- vanish because all modern computer and video recorders used discs or solid state storage.

Against that, there are many expressions still widely used in Britain that come from the days of sailing ships; "to know the ropes", "plain sailing", "three sheets to the wind", "if we all pull together" (this actually may come from rowing), and so on. While people still go sailing, it is a minority activity, so I don't think it can be the reason that these phrases are still so widely used. Perhaps it is because they are widely used in literature.

What examples do you have of interesting colloquial expressions in danger, or that are still unaccountably going strong? What new modern phrases are being invented to enrich human language?

The vernacular is changing but it is largely due to cultural dilution. Todays society is not taught our cultural past, partly due to chav, partly due to multiculturalism diluting the inherited culture and partly due to societal disinterest in continuence of history.

For this reason the current generation of youth cannot recite nursery rhymes that have been known by children for hundreds of years. Those they do remember have been recently changed, either to avoid offense like "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" or because they are no longer 'relevant' tlike "Ring a Ring o'Roses." The question of relvance is entirely due to current cultural trends. Ring a Ring o'Roses' hasnt been relevant since the last outbreak of plague, but is part of our culture. Current political trends to modernise our national culture, actually for central politcal ends for the most part can and has resulted in centuries of history being lost because the cultural baton is no longer passed down, or is altered as it passes through the generations.
This has happened before, notably post Norman Conquest and during the Commonwealth in the 17th century. A cultural severance is only reversible within two generations, the changes become very marked after one, even if the initial symptoms like we are seeing appear trivial.

Given the opportunity the cultural vernacular will be quietly inherited automatically. The 'Age of Sail' phrases you used as examples remain not so much because of hobbyist sailing, which is partaken by only a very small percentage of the British public, but because there phrases havent been airbrushed out yet. A clearer example would be phrases like 'highly strung', 'shafted', 'to the mark', and the 'V-sign' itself; all of which relate to the longbowmen of medieval Wales and England. The longbow is a dead skill, and has been for centuries, unlike sailing, but the phrases remain in common circulation to this day.

Your examples are valid, but to better look at the dilution of our language and its culture you have to look at what is being passed on to the next generation. Nursery rhymes are the litmus test for this, yes nursery rhymes are not trendy, they werent in the 70's either, but kids still knew them. Kids nowadays often don't, either the rhymes have been redacted or altered. It is not the kids doing this, but teachers and parents under advisement from teachers. Follow the root of that and you will see where the actual cultural severance is coming from.
These changes appear petty but have a deep and lasting effect, and are indicative of a larger general decline of our national cultture.

 Orlanth wrote:
For this reason the current generation of youth cannot recite nursery rhymes that have been known by children for hundreds of years. Those they do remember have been recently changed, either to avoid offense like "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" or because they are no longer 'relevant' tlike "Ring a Ring o'Roses." The question of relvance is entirely due to current cultural trends. Ring a Ring o'Roses' hasnt been relevant since the last outbreak of plague, but is part of our culture. Current political trends to modernise our national culture, actually for central politcal ends for the most part can and has resulted in centuries of history being lost because the cultural baton is no longer passed down, or is altered as it passes through the generations.
This has happened before, notably post Norman Conquest and during the Commonwealth in the 17th century. A cultural severance is only reversible within two generations, the changes become very marked after one, even if the initial symptoms like we are seeing appear trivial.

Given the opportunity the cultural vernacular will be quietly inherited automatically. The 'Age of Sail' phrases you used as examples remain not so much because of hobbyist sailing, which is partaken by only a very small percentage of the British public, but because there phrases havent been airbrushed out yet. A clearer example would be phrases like 'highly strung', 'shafted', 'to the mark', and the 'V-sign' itself; all of which relate to the longbowmen of medieval Wales and England. The longbow is a dead skill, and has been for centuries, unlike sailing, but the phrases remain in common circulation to this day.

Ring-a Ring-a Rosie isn’t about the plague, people have no idea what the origin was but they know it wasn’t that. And Baa Baa Blacksheep hasn’t been banned over race concerns, that’s a very silly tabloid story that pops up from time to time. And the v-sign isn’t actually related to longbowmen, that’s another myth.

On your general point, I agree that there are often movements to try and drive cultural changes. You only seem to recognise half of the story though, as these movements are just as often self-consciously traditionalist as they are progressive. Complaints about Halloween being bad because it’s American are just as tedious as attempts to get people to say ‘happy holidays’.

Either way, these movements are rarely effective. Language and culture goes where it goes, driven by social, economic and technological change, almost all of it entirely unintended.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Been thinking lately about the magnificence of the word "chuff".

Chuff alone is slang for female genitalia, or occasionally, arse. A bad driver would be "Right up my chuff." regardless of gender of speaker.

However when used as a verb, "Chuffed!" means thrilled. You can be "Chuffed to bits!" about something good.

"Chuffing"/"Chuffer" are low grade replacements for actual swear words when used, like you might say "sugar!" instead of "gak!"...

"Chuffy" is northern English slang for a boner.

Chuffing hell indeed...

Out here, chuff is the exhalation sound a large predator makes when it...isn't about to do violence. Typically it's considered a happy noise.

My daughter was telling me that 'chuff' is one of those words like 'cleave' that has two, completely opposite meanings, one of which derives from the first one by the virtue of being opposite. Over time, the earlier meaning can be lost and replaced by the newer one. This has not yet happened to "cleave".

This called to my mind that in one of the Aubrey-Maturin books, set in the early 19th century and noted for their adept use of period language, Captain Aubrey upbrades some of the men for rudeness to an officer and orders them to apologise for "talking chuff". So perhaps there is something in this.

 sebster wrote:

Ring-a Ring-a Rosie isn’t about the plague, people have no idea what the origin was but they know it wasn’t that. And Baa Baa Blacksheep hasn’t been banned over race concerns, that’s a very silly tabloid story that pops up from time to time. And the v-sign isn’t actually related to longbowmen, that’s another myth.

1.
Ring a ring a roses = the ring of sores under the armpit
a pocket full of posies = carrying sweet smelling flowers to keep away disease as it was believed the smell was contagious
attishoo attishoo = going sick
we all fall down = high mortality

This interpretation has been denied by some on two accounts. First it isn't an accurate depiction of plague symptoms which don't include sneezing, second it didn't appear to enter print until the 1880's.
However its a traditional nursery rhyme likely started by children themselves, with only a limited understanding of how plague interacts. This fits the idea of a verse that originated from the aftermath of the plague. After all plague isnt funny.
Most importantly by the time the rhyme was put into print it had spawned several variants from a wide geographical base thus linking them to an earlier text and time. Some variants add a second verse which is more upbeat and has everyone getting up at the end, others replace the sickness with giving away flowers 'to Josie'.


2.
In this UK this has happened. I know a primary school support teacher and for the curriculum Baa Baa Black Sheep has been officially replaced with Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep.
This is to avoid offense to ethnic minorities, even though black sheep exist, are actually black, and arent logically in any way comperable to Africans.
The story evolved. Now Baa Baa Ranbow Sheep is better for other reasons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4782856.stm

It isnt a myth though.


3.
As for the V-sign. There are two, hand reversed and hand forward. The hand forward sign is regularly seen as an insult.
You may have got your 'debunking' from this:
https://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/two-fingers-up-to-english-history/

There is a lot wrong with it. First the v-sign long predates the 1970's. It may have not have entered use in the some countries until that time.
Second the cutting of fingers of longbowmen was a common concern, the concern itself may indeed by propaganda, it might not. the fact was the people at the time believed it.
Longbowmen were seriously hated by the French though, for good reason, and captured longbowmen did not fare well.
Also claims from the time suggest the French would cut of tghree fingers not two, however a three finger salute is difficult to do, and doesnt look right. A salute of two of those three fingers still indicates the archer in question is still able to fire.
It is not relevant whether finger cutting was historically accurate concern or spun up English propaganda from the Hundred Years war, it bentered into the cultural milieu at around the same time and both relate to the cultural impact of the longbow.

 sebster wrote:

On your general point, I agree that there are often movements to try and drive cultural changes. You only seem to recognise half of the story though, as these movements are just as often self-consciously traditionalist as they are progressive. Complaints about Halloween being bad because it’s American are just as tedious as attempts to get people to say ‘happy holidays’.

I don't agree on the changes being traditionalist. I don't know about Australia but in the UK we have had Halloween for a very long time. Mainly because it is the traditional but mostly mythical 'witch festival' on the eve of All Saints Day (all hallows).
Halloween wasn't really celebrated in the modern form though as being burnt at the stake is bad for your health.

I can agree that the preeminence of the festival is an American idea, but if so its still a traditional one at heart with European roots. Like many festivals it can and has been commercialised but people are more comfortable with it. This is largely due to the acceptability of fantasy in the mainstream.

Also the 'Americanisms' are a revival of much older European themed activities and games which fell out of fashion in Europe. Pumpkins were not a common crop in much of Europe post the introduction of the potato and jack-o-lanterns was lost due to shortage of local availability. Also earlier rites involved making heads from turnips.
Thus Halloween is undergoing a revival rather than any actual Americanism, which is restricted mainly to the commercial aspect.

Halloween is nevertheless facing resistance. This is mainly due to trick or treating. Again this is a cultural event which was in common use in the British Isles, partricularly Ireland long before its emergence in the USA, It however largely remained a minor aspect of the festival.
Nowadays trick or treating has been magnified by the American cultural revaival of Halloween, then distorted by todays youth. Trick or treating no longer means give us a cake or we wont bless this house against evil spirits (the orginal) through give us a sweet or we play a harmless trick (the adaption) to give us some money or perform a random act of vandalism against your property here and now.

http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/halloween_-_no_trick_or_treat-card_-_ci3749.pdf

Happy Holidays is a way of de-Christianising Christmas, which has always been strongly opposed by the church. Same as with Winterval. This form of cultural dilution largely failed, and Christian imagery are still included in Christmas. Though much of pagan Yule and medieval custom of the time persists. Christmas is still the most important public holiday and whole economies revolve around it. The Christian aspect and Yule both have been largely sidelined in what is now a retail festival. But the iconography still remains.

Happy Holidays will stay because there will always be some who cannot abide saying the word Christ in an non-derogatory sense. Others will want to pander to fears of offending other faiths, though from all accounts most practitioners of other faiths have no problems with Christmas, and celebrate it as a secular festival.

Pretty sure "Happy Holidays" is actually popular because it encompasses Christmas AND New Years' Day while being much easier to say quickly than "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." Also, there are a lot more Jews, Muslims and Buddhists over here. Back in the 80's and 90's, before the rise of the Fox News outrage machine, pretty much everyone said happy holidays and there was about zero backlash. Christians didn't know there was a culture war on, maybe?

I saw 'happy holidays' as an American thing so as to encompass christmas and thanksgiving.

If i make all the armour saves for my thallax i am 'well chuffed'

When my mate is 'skint' he says he is 'brassic'.

I like the term 'ghosted' for making something disappear - as in, "my parents walked in but luckily i ghosted all the stuff!" not old, but pleasing nonetheless.

"show someone the ropes" (to guide someone through the basics)

"Ship-shape and bristol fashion" (neat and tidy)

"bairns" (children)

"fill yer boots!" (take as much as you want/stock up)

"off to see a man about a horse" (im off to meet someone on the quiet)

"on the job" (mid-coitus)

"Technicolor yawn" (vomit)

"ton-up" (travelling at 100mph)

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Pretty sure "Happy Holidays" is actually popular because it encompasses Christmas AND New Years' Day while being much easier to say quickly than "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." Also, there are a lot more Jews, Muslims and Buddhists over here. Back in the 80's and 90's, before the rise of the Fox News outrage machine, pretty much everyone said happy holidays and there was about zero backlash. Christians didn't know there was a culture war on, maybe?

Motives vary. It may well have innocent roots, but the term has been politicised somewhat.

 Orlanth wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Pretty sure "Happy Holidays" is actually popular because it encompasses Christmas AND New Years' Day while being much easier to say quickly than "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." Also, there are a lot more Jews, Muslims and Buddhists over here. Back in the 80's and 90's, before the rise of the Fox News outrage machine, pretty much everyone said happy holidays and there was about zero backlash. Christians didn't know there was a culture war on, maybe?

Motives vary. It may well have innocent roots, but the term has been politicised somewhat.

Yes, but it was not the people saying "Happy Holidays" who politicized it.

Trick-or-treating may well be derived from older European traditions (obviously, given the origin of the majority of Americans), but it's still a newcomer up here. When I was young enough to dress up at Halloween, we didn't do it; we went "guising" instead - we got sweets and the like in return for doing a "party piece"; a song, a short poem, etc. All in all, rewarding that sort of artistic expression seems more wholesome to me than encouraging juvenile extortion.

 Orlanth wrote:
However its a traditional nursery rhyme likely started by children themselves, with only a limited understanding of how plague interacts. This fits the idea of a verse that originated from the aftermath of the plague. After all plague isnt funny.

First up, credit for your research. I didn’t get anything from anywhere, and it’s rare someone does way more background reading than I do. So props.

Anyhow, you’re right that it might have been made up by kids who didn’t understand the plague that well, and it might have been made up much earlier than we saw it in print. No-one knows, and that’s about as good a guess as anything. Not sure I want to go about calling it an important link to history though, when it’s an inaccurate nursery link that may or may not have been inspired by those events or some other set of events. Better to just argue its an important link because it’s been sung for generations, no matter what the underlying meaning.

In this UK this has happened. I know a primary school support teacher and for the curriculum Baa Baa Black Sheep has been officially replaced with Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep.

I didn’t say it had never happened. I’ve been following the PC rainbow sheep stories since the 90s. There was even one here in Australia. I said it hadn’t been banned, because it hasn’t. There have been local instances of inane people trying to be more inclusive by being more annoying, and tabloid media has latched on those isolated events to tell an exciting story about national bans, but that is a myth.

As for the V-sign. There are two, hand reversed and hand forward. The hand forward sign is regularly seen as an insult.
You may have got your 'debunking' from this:
https://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/two-fingers-up-to-english-history/

I didn’t get it from there. Once again credit for your research, though. Anyhow, there is no evidence of the v-sign for centuries after The Hundred Years War. So attributing to that isn’t necessarily false, but rather a very speculative, albeit nice sounding guess.

I don't agree on the changes being traditionalist. I don't know about Australia but in the UK we have had Halloween for a very long time.

They were examples. There will be different examples in different countries. The point was that your description of directed cultural change missed half the dynamic. Every group that forms an idea of how the country ought to be will naturally look to culture and symbolism to help them achieve their vision. This means both progressive groups and conservative groups. It has to be remembered that conservative or traditionalist groups aren’t trying to maintain what is in place, but return to an often flawed vision of how things were at some other time.

Anyhow, the greater point is that these groups almost always fail. They’ll have minor successes from time to time, but those are almost accidental, and the greater vision is never achieved. Culture is just way to complex.