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The point about Damocles, etc is that they all happened in the past. Damocles for instances was 300 years go. Against the 10,000+ years of the Imperium, it's a short time, but in terms of human lifetime and chances to develop colonies, industries and new technology, it's a long time.
I've been reading a lot of the Warzone books of late and whilst not all of them are amazing, there are some damn good ones which some very good fluff and stories and some great missions - Damolces, Pandorex, Red Waaagh, Montka, Valedor, Sanctus et al. Not to mention the FWIA campaign books.
Saying GW dosent tell stories in the 40k setting, or focus on events and fluff is just plain BS.
Yeah, but let's be honest here, "amazing" by 40k fluff standards is really average at best by the standards of science fiction as a whole. The characters are shallow at best, when GW even bothers to define them at all beyond what weapons and armor they're equipped with. The stories seldom involve more than a straightforward fight between opposing armies. And even the setting for the stories is usually generic, little more than a description of the terrain on the battlefield. The best I can hope for with a 40k campaign book is that it will be kind of entertaining for a while and provide some useful background material that I can incorporate into my own stories. Take away the game and the ability to create my own stories in the 40k universe and I would have zero interest in reading the fluff.
As to players doing interesting stuff, how exactly are they doing this if GW dosent provide these background scenarios? Dodgy home brew missions?
Exactly. By inventing their own characters and battles in the 40k universe.
And advancing the plot doesn't provide tabletop missions at all. Any tabletop mission you can invent can be thrown into countless different fluff stories. The only reason advancing the plot is necessary is for the fluff itself, it has nothing to do with game mechanics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/13 11:43:39
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Im not sure I understand the point then.
GW providing, background, scenarios, campaigns (some of which are well thought out) and new characters (granted - some of which arent) is an enabler to allow players to refight these battles and campaigns themselves using background fluff.
Are you asking for GW to move the 40k story on with new campaigns?
Or simply provide more indepth, fleshed out campaigns themselves?
The IA books are much more indepth and fleshed which is great - I've personally fought through IA8 and IA4 and whilst not perfect (some missions arent thought out enough) they were very enjoyable - even allowing a different ending (IA4) than what the fluff said happened.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/13 12:00:44
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Agreed. The problem was for the most part though, GW retconned them or simply ignored the outcomes which was bizarre but probably again highlighted their short term-ish outlook to the hobby :(
Im wondering with Montka, Wulfen, Sanctus will these be retconned in 3-5 years time again or will they genuinely be incorporated into the 40k timeline/events.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Ratius wrote: Are you asking for GW to move the 40k story on with new campaigns?
Or simply provide more indepth, fleshed out campaigns themselves?
I'm asking them to provide campaigns as they've been doing, but without moving the overall story of the setting. Campaigns set in places with little or no impact on the galaxy as a whole are great. We get all the battles and inspiration we want, but nobody's fluff gets invalidated. Making big dramatic end-times changes to the setting as a whole means losing sight of the fact that it's our stories that matter, not the official ones GW writes. And GW shouldn't be interfering with our stories for the sake of publishing stories that will be mediocre at best.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Gamgee wrote: Actually there's some pretty big implications Tau are on the cusp of discovering the warp and warp drive technology. Also a prophecy of Farsight being the only hope for the galaxy and the IoM falling. He is being helped by a Grey Knight trying to teach him to resist chaos.
A Tau Air Caste with warp drives would be frightening. Or who knows maybe they discover some other method of FTL. All I know is the story is being set up they are about to grow a lot bigger if they can survive the nids.
The Air Caste couldn't stand up to the Imperium in Montka, what would be frightening? That they could run away faster?
There are dozens of prophecies that happen, are averted or occur. That is literally what the Imperial Tarot is. An Ork fleet going to hit a hive world and conquer it? The tarot flips for that, the Imperium responds and the Orks are beaten before they can take the planet.
On top of that, the Tau have captured working Warp Drives in the past, and couldn't figure them out. Probably because half of their power is literally bs and magic. I would believe the Tau taking on the Eldar and high jacking some web way tech and reverse engineering it, thus bringing them into conflict with the he space elves and the necrons.
I must have read an entirely different book if you think things are looking up for the Tau after montka. Or for anyone involved. The Cadian commander was left to die, Shrike lost his first campaign as Chapter Master, Khan failed his oath, Agrellan is worthless as a planet and strategically now that the gulf Is fire.
The Tau Empire experienced morale whiplash when they rode the high from Kauyon and killing Severax on top of conquering multiple new worlds, to ground down by how little everything they have done so far matters to the Imperium. Remember, they thought they had delivered the Imperium a mighty blow after killing the 'black king'; they thought the Imperium was down for the count long enough for them to consolidate their holdings, grab some weaker worlds and prepare to cross the Gulf.
The Empire had its eyes opened to the might and power of the Imperium. More than Zeist, Taros, and Damocles the first combined. They haven't even announced Aunvas death yet.
And if it came from a black library book, well...
GW proper has ignored the entire Uriel Ventris series, as Captain Idaeus is still kicking, and anything from the series they do mention in the codex is attributed to Cassius, or his role is just taken out. And Ventris was/is an Ultramarine. The Space Marine faction decried almost as much as Space Wolves for GW love.
Do I think the Tau wil get more fluff? Yes. But it's not going to be sunshine and roses. If Farsight is really being backed by the Imperium, I don't expect when his inevitable confrontation against the Ethereals is going to lead to a war of conquest against the people who have been helping him out. Farsight is a pretty honourable dude, I expect he will focus on Tyranids and Chaos, while his Imperial Benefactors either assist in fighting those two threats or at the least keep the rest of the Imperium pointed elsewhere.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Kilkrazy wrote: The world wide campaigns of the early 2000s were very popular, and provided genuine involvement for lots of players.
There was a lot of cheating too, but this probably could be solved with some technical ingenuity.
Well yeah chaos won and GW cheated the traitor legions by saying they stalled on cadia.
I meant cheating by players. I remember some examples of players playing five or six games a day for weeks on end, and winning all of them, always against the same circle of opponents.
Kilkrazy wrote: The world wide campaigns of the early 2000s were very popular, and provided genuine involvement for lots of players.
There was a lot of cheating too, but this probably could be solved with some technical ingenuity.
Well yeah chaos won and GW cheated the traitor legions by saying they stalled on cadia.
I meant cheating by players. I remember some examples of players playing five or six games a day for weeks on end, and winning all of them, always against the same circle of opponents.
That and the Imperium crushed Chaos in space, meaning it was effectively Chaos being stalled on Cadia?
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Also I love to host the 40kRPG line so I have an interest in them advancing the plot because I want to set it in an end times era or at least a time of drastic worsening for the galaxy.
when i bought my first BRB of 3rd edition in 1998, the end times were part of the background. ( "the full circle" ).
So end times isn't a "new deal"
The plot ? Who needs a plot?
If we have a nice sandbox to pour our own imagination and creativity in! why should anyone like to have the GW-sales-department hold your hand to guide us with fanwank-drivel around like sheep ?
Maybe, just maybe, realize where the game is , squad or platoon level at best IMO, and then think about the size of the background and GW's abilities to scale...
The Apocalypse for a fantasy world of a few continents and some cities is possible. The same for a whole universe? or just a Galaxy? or even a system of several planets?
better to keep them off of this.
Armageddon worked as a campaign because it was 1 Planet , 2 main factions and the outcome was open ended. No one was hurt. None of this silly "most recent release is bestest thing evar 111" nonsense there.
Lots of basic grunts taking part at Armgeddon. Whenever one forgets to have the basic line troopers mentioned, I will be very wary of the "fluff". Usually those who can write a decent story don't have to ignore the "common man" and get fixated on the "heroes".
Yes, I don't want a blue screen for wh40k because some people champion for a re-boot.
The background was a running system. It may has some bugs, some almost forgotten parts who are still around but incompatible now, but why change a running system?
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
I got a feeling there's going to be a lot of butt hurt people with the lore changes. I'm looking forward to it. The background toybox to tell stories in is getting stale and boring. Predictable even. Need to shake things up to tell newer more interesting stories.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/13 20:11:59
Where GW is stuck is that having if you deal a massive blow to the imperium you risk alienating a large chunk of your player base, and that's risky business wise. Marine players get a lot of flames on line and as a marine player I've come to terms with that but we are the big seller and a large chunk of the money that keep the lights on.
I would love to see a move forward but I don't see them risking it, especial since age of sigmar doesn't seem to be selling. They got a preview of what happens when you blow up the universe and give chaos a win.
Gamgee wrote: I got a feeling there's going to be a lot of butt hurt people with the lore changes. I'm looking forward to it. The background toybox to tell stories in is getting stale and boring. Predictable even. Need to shake things up to tell newer more interesting stories.
The chaos fanbase was looking forward to see the "lore" changed .... it was called Eye of Terror Campaign. Afterwards...not so much
So if you want the chaos treatment for your Tau - like CSM 3.5 dex -> CSM 4.0 dex etc - fine, have it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/13 21:41:49
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Gamgee wrote: I got a feeling there's going to be a lot of butt hurt people with the lore changes. I'm looking forward to it. The background toybox to tell stories in is getting stale and boring. Predictable even. Need to shake things up to tell newer more interesting stories.
I was going to ask how long you'd been into 40K to get so bored. Then I realised that you can't have been into it any longer than me, as I've been kicking around since RT. If I can still find new things in the fluff I didn't know, and get excited about new ideas and concepts for armies (it's just the goddam game that lets it down!) then I'd suggest the fault isn't with the fluff...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I'm not that bored of it, but I am eager to see change in the plot. Even if that means characters I like get killed. Maybe especially if people in my faction die like Aun'va. As long as there are new and interesting people to take up their mantel. Okay maybe he is dead this paves the way for a new Ethereal Supreme with his own plot opinions, fighting style, and strategy for the Tau for example.
So make a new model for him. I don't want to only see new characters, but a few key new players in the new changing and changed times would be sweet for each new faction to show how they're organization and people are handling these new situations.
On the other hand don't go crazy and introduce too many characters that stifles interesting possibility. Right now there is so much 40k novels it's really boring and takes away opportunity if your a stickler for canon since its eating up cool things you could be doing as more and more of the plot is being offloaded into the novels.
I like Game of Thrones a lot and subscribe to that philosophy of story. It's so memorable because your favorite characters might not make it.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Gamgee wrote: Actually there's some pretty big implications Tau are on the cusp of discovering the warp and warp drive technology. Also a prophecy of Farsight being the only hope for the galaxy and the IoM falling. He is being helped by a Grey Knight trying to teach him to resist chaos.
A Tau Air Caste with warp drives would be frightening. Or who knows maybe they discover some other method of FTL. All I know is the story is being set up they are about to grow a lot bigger if they can survive the nids.
The Tau already have a form of FTL that "skims" the "surface" of the Warp, allowing for short jumps. And they are fully aware of the Immaterium. Or, at least, the leadership is.
Officially (i.e. publicly), the Tau abandoned research into a full-on Warp drive as offering no benefit to the Greater Good, unless something has changed with the latest Tau related releases.
Perhaps the Tau will invent a navigation machine to replace navigators, as happened in the Dune novels.
You don't need Navigators to use Warp drive. Humanity was using Warp drive for nearly three millennia prior to the discovery (or engineering) of the Navigator gene, relying on calculated jumps via the drive's navigation computers. The problem is that like the Tau's skip drives, it's a short armed way of travel. Calculated Warp travel can only be safely done in short jumps, roughly four light years a pop, as opposed to the safe jumps up to 5000 light years via piloted jumps with Navigators.
Game of Thrones is also a story and a setting at the same time. Game of Thrones "feel" never changes, but its players of the game do all the time. Which is all that's needed. The story does advance, but has anything truly changed about the style of these schemers and the low magic? No not really. Same with 40k. Same with any setting. However that doesn't mean a setting can't advance either. Your thinking a setting has to be static which is simply not true at all.
Your always free to have battles and stories in 40k. Nothing will ever stop you, but at the same time when a lot of people want the setting to advance it advances to shake up the stories told a little. I think its greedy to think that the game should only ever remain the one single way you want despite the fact for years fans have demanded some form of plot advancement. You will always have 40k, but why deny us this hypothetical 40.5k? If you don't like it just ignore it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/14 05:09:25
I agree that they have done well with some of the campaign books. Of course I've only read a few but I really liked the red WAAAGH one. I thought it was very interesting and if the orks appear in one of the upcoming ones ill read it too.
My Armies:
Orks about 15000-16000 mostly unpainted but slowly being worked on
Militarum Tempestus about 2000 points just built
Inquisition about 2000 points unpainted
Officio Assassinorum 570 unpainted
I dont paint quickly
Gamgee wrote: I'm not that bored of it, but I am eager to see change in the plot. Even if that means characters I like get killed. Maybe especially if people in my faction die like Aun'va. As long as there are new and interesting people to take up their mantel. Okay maybe he is dead this paves the way for a new Ethereal Supreme with his own plot opinions, fighting style, and strategy for the Tau for example.
So make a new model for him. I don't want to only see new characters, but a few key new players in the new changing and changed times would be sweet for each new faction to show how they're organization and people are handling these new situations.
On the other hand don't go crazy and introduce too many characters that stifles interesting possibility. Right now there is so much 40k novels it's really boring and takes away opportunity if your a stickler for canon since its eating up cool things you could be doing as more and more of the plot is being offloaded into the novels.
I like Game of Thrones a lot and subscribe to that philosophy of story. It's so memorable because your favorite characters might not make it.
I'm conceptually with you, but I don't want to see models that I enjoy erased from future rules because of the story. Then again, I don't want characters written out of the rules (but not the story) just because GW thinks the model is outdated, and doesn't want to make a new one, too
Game of Thrones is also a story and a setting at the same time. Game of Thrones "feel" never changes, but its players of the game do all the time. Which is all that's needed. The story does advance, but has anything truly changed about the style of these schemers and the low magic? No not really. Same with 40k. Same with any setting. However that doesn't mean a setting can't advance either. Your thinking a setting has to be static which is simply not true at all.
I think you're missing the point here. GoT is a story where you as a reader are a passive observer. You follow the characters the author has chosen to give you, and the setting just fills in the details of the story. But things work very differently in 40k. You as a "reader" are also an active participant in the story. You borrow some inspiration from GW's characters and stories, and you use that inspiration to create your own in the 40k setting. The main goal of the story in 40k is to provide a background and then get out of the way. If you're spending time thinking about events in the official fluff instead of your own stories then the 40k fluff has failed horribly in that role.
The other difference, of course, is that GoT is a great story on its own merits. 40k's fiction, on the other hand, is mediocre at best and would have very little value if it wasn't necessary background material for our own stories. The best we can hope for with a new GW campaign book is that the story is mildly entertaining for a few minutes and doesn't contain anything too painfully stupid. If you just want to read a story you're better off getting one of the countless science fiction novels that are much better from a literary point of view. So I don't see any reason to take the slightest risk of compromising the 40k fluff's function as background material for the sake of writing some garbage that will be forgotten 15 minutes after you finish reading it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Gamgee wrote: There's really not much ways I can reply to you without this getting personal other than to say back off before you get too hot headed.
Your trying to goad me and it's not going to work.
No, I'm just pointing out why you're wrong. If you can't respond without breaking forum rules then that's your problem, not mine. I'm perfectly happy to have a discussion without personal attacks.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Gamgee wrote: There's really not much ways I can reply to you without this getting personal other than to say back off before you get too hot headed.
Your trying to goad me and it's not going to work.
No, I'm just pointing out why you're wrong. If you can't respond without breaking forum rules then that's your problem, not mine. I'm perfectly happy to have a discussion without personal attacks.
Then your not very good with words. Your stuffing words in my mouth. How do you know I forget the 40k stories in 15 minutes? Then your cramming suggestions down my throat like I'm some sort of literary savage that only reads 40k books by saying I'm better off getting a real book as if you know anything about my reading habits to judge them so poor as to need to read a real book.
As if I couldn't possibly read multiple things at the same time.
You've ultimately proven nothing since it's all opinions anyways. You could make a strong case for your opinion, but that's strictly speaking theoretical.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/14 10:11:22
Gamgee wrote: How do you know I forget the 40k stories in 15 minutes?
I didn't say you did. The "you" in those sentences is the general "you" as in "one will probably forget it 15 minutes after one finishes reading it", not the specific "you" as in "Gamgee will forget it 15 minutes after they finish reading it".
You are of course free to disagree with this assessment of the quality of the writing, but I think you'll have trouble making a convincing argument. The characters in 40k campaign books are shallow at best and rarely have more development than a list of what weapons and armor they are equipped with. The plots are straightforward and generic war stories, little more than a list of which forces fought in which battles. The settings are usually generic planets with little detail beyond a listing of what terrain the battle is happening in. There's just very little that is at all memorable about them, and it all blends together into the general themes of 40k as a setting.
Then your cramming suggestions down my throat like I'm some sort of literary savage that only reads 40k books by saying I'm better off getting a real book as if you know anything about my reading habits to judge them so poor as to need to read a real book.
As if I couldn't possibly read multiple things at the same time.
I said no such thing. Perhaps the problem here is that you are making too many assumptions instead of reading what I actually wrote?
You've ultimately proven nothing since it's all opinions anyways. You could make a strong case for your opinion, but that's strictly speaking theoretical.
And what's your point? Everything you say is equally "just your opinion". Shall we also point out that water is typically wet, and 1+1=2 while we're making explicit statements of obvious truths?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Very well, I'll accept that you meant no offense. I frequent a lot of rough websites. Sorry for jumping to conclusions, but do try be a little more careful with your words in the future.
Not every work of literature has to be amazing. I read 40k stuff because its quick and relaxing. Also a fairly unique setting in terms of just how grim and dark it is nearly comical in some sense. Also I mostly stick to the more major stories in the codices and some of the campaign books.
I appreciate these campaigns for advancing the plot while still being brief enough that it's not just too much waste like the Horus Heresy series which just goes on endlessly about every little inconsequential detail.
I feel when the setting and plots update and move it makes me more involved with the game so I can forge new narratives and have them follow alongside the ongoing events. I have a 40k story told about my Tau, but if it's going to be anything more than endless fights and skirmishes the plot needs to advance once in awhile so I can incorporate it into how my guys react to these changes.
I don't read the novels unless they're really good by 40k standards.
Gamgee wrote: Not every work of literature has to be amazing.
This is true. But my point is that if you're going to blow up the setting you'd better be getting a significant payoff in return. And, based on GW's past work, there is no reason to believe that we will. Fluff that people have used in their own stories changes, and all we get to make up for it is more of the same mediocre-at-best fluff we already have. So if the new fluff is no better than the old fluff then why change anything?
I feel when the setting and plots update and move it makes me more involved with the game so I can forge new narratives and have them follow alongside the ongoing events. I have a 40k story told about my Tau, but if it's going to be anything more than endless fights and skirmishes the plot needs to advance once in awhile so I can incorporate it into how my guys react to these changes.
I really don't see why this is necessary. The 40k setting is an absurdly huge place, events where your army would be the most insignificant of pawns in a larger game are a minor footnote in the grand story of the 40k setting as a whole. A static grand-scale story doesn't in any way prevent you from doing whatever you want with your own stories. In fact advancing the larger plot risks hindering your stories by contradicting things you've done.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
better to keep them off of this. 
Whenever one forgets to have the basic line troopers mentioned, I will be very wary of the "fluff". Usually those who can write a decent story don't have to ignore the "common man" and get fixated on the "heroes".
