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So the law to allow employers to pay less than minimum wage but allow workers to suppliment it with tips, is a way of encouraging new businesses to setup (ie lower labour costs/ wages bill)?

 Hordini wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
As a European looking in, tips are cancer. It is hard to reform a broken system where the employers have little incentive to do so.

I don't see how tips are cancer when they allow servers to make a decent wage. At some places you can make multiple hundreds of dollars in a night. Working as a server or a bartender is one of the few jobs you can get without any higher education whatsoever and still make a decent wage, and it's because of the tips. Servers get paid $2.13 an hour by the restaurant. Don't mistake that as servers are only taking home $2.13 an hour. Most good servers at reputable establishments don't even take home any actual money from their hourly wage because their entire pay check is taken out in taxes, because they are taking home hundreds of dollars in tips every week.

This restaurant was conducting business practices that are straight up illegal and shouldn't be taken as the normal state of affairs in the restaurant business.

The same thing could happen in a European bar restaurant, there's 0 difference. The only difference is that the European bartender/server knows that even if he has an really slow night, customers complaining and being dicks over minor things or generally because cheap and not tipping, the European/UK person knows they still get to take home a wage for the night that they can put towards rent and bills. Those hundreds of euros/pounds they take home from tips is because they've been a good server, customers have enjoyed themselves and want to reward the service so gift a little money, not because of this obligation the US has that requires the general public to pay a percentage of their own money to keep a roof over the waiter's heads and bread on a bartender's table. The whole system just undermines the idea of "I do a job for you and you reward that work with money" by offloading the financial cost onto the customers.

A fun video on tipping in the US. Adam Ruins Everything - Why Tipping Should Be Banned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

As a UK resident, we don't pay tips usually in our country so waiters and stuff always get paid at least minimum wage. Cross the channel to France and it's a different kettle of fish.

Tipping seems to be quite common in the UK, I certainly always pay 10%, almost always in cash so that the staff actually gets it, if the service/food was satisfactory. Its only ever done in restaurants with table service though.

The difference being, that in the USA a 10% tip is really stingy, even for poor service.

Yeah...tip 10% and your server will be saying "feth you, buddy."

Twenty percent is the appropriate level for a decent server in the U.S.

 gorgon wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

As a UK resident, we don't pay tips usually in our country so waiters and stuff always get paid at least minimum wage. Cross the channel to France and it's a different kettle of fish.

Tipping seems to be quite common in the UK, I certainly always pay 10%, almost always in cash so that the staff actually gets it, if the service/food was satisfactory. Its only ever done in restaurants with table service though.

The difference being, that in the USA a 10% tip is really stingy, even for poor service.

Yeah...tip 10% and your server will be saying "feth you, buddy."

Twenty percent is the appropriate level for a decent server in the U.S.

Yep. For craptastic or half-assed service, I tip no more than the customary 20%. And if I'm in a really pissy mood, it's all in quarters, dimes, nickels, and pennies.


For good to outstanding service, the server gets a nice, big tip from me out of appreciation.

I don't like tips being included in the bill. I like to pay tips in cash, on the table, so that it goes straight in the pockets of the serving staff. The managers should never see that money, it wasn't given to them. I've already paid the bill, this is a personal gratuity given to the staff.

 Hordini wrote:

I don't see how tips are cancer when they allow servers to make a decent wage. At some places you can make multiple hundreds of dollars in a night. Working as a server or a bartender is one of the few jobs you can get without any higher education whatsoever and still make a decent wage, and it's because of the tips.

They are cancer for the reasons you described. They 'allow' servers to make a decent wage. Allow, at the grace of the consumer, a man who should be paid more by his employer to subsist or even thrive.

 Hordini wrote:
Servers get paid $2.13 an hour by the restaurant. Don't mistake that as servers are only taking home $2.13 an hour. Most good servers at reputable establishments don't even take home any actual money from their hourly wage because their entire pay check is taken out in taxes, because they are taking home hundreds of dollars in tips every week.

This restaurant was conducting business practices that are straight up illegal and shouldn't be taken as the normal state of affairs in the restaurant business.

But it should be illegal to pay a man less than minimum wage. A culture that tips for adequate service has enabled employers to pay servers far less than their labour is worth, under the assumption that Joe Public will step in and fork over the cost of living, if he feels like it. It places people in a vulnerable situation, at the mercy of strangers.
In Brazil there are guys who will rush to wash your windshield when you stop at traffic lights. Then they'll ask for money. It's essentially combination begging and service provision which is what tips amount to.

Although in the U.S., the vast majority of the time they ARE getting that 18-20% (unless the management is doing illegal stuff like in the OP). While technically optional, tipping to a certain level is something that you're trained to do in our culture. I'm not sure that's registering with you folks from other countries.

Better servers can average more than that, and will probably be rewarded with opportunities at better restaurants with higher food bills and more affluent clientele.

And now you can see where this discussion is really going...

So it's one of those "American things" based on the assumption that people is actually nice and has translated from "people is nice" to "people is going to be nice because tradition and social pressure"?

Yeah, its hard for us, cynical europeans, with our constant wars and absolute distrust of anyone outside our closest circles to understand how the many things in America that are based on people being "nice" and "generous" actually work without collapsing, we usually need our government to force us to be nice to others.

Granted, that may just be Spain or my own distorted perception of it, havent traveled that much of Europe.

 aldo wrote:
So it's one of those "American things" based on the assumption that people is actually nice and has translated from "people is nice" to "people is going to be nice because tradition and social pressure"?

Yeah, its hard for us, cynical europeans, with our constant wars and absolute distrust of anyone outside our closest circles to understand how the many things in America that are based on people being "nice" and "generous" actually work without collapsing, we usually need our government to force us to be nice to others.

Granted, that may just be Spain or my own distorted perception of it, havent traveled that much of Europe.

Oh, no, it's a deeply cynical tradition. Tipped professions were traditionally fairly servile positions: bellhops, shoeshine boys, and waitstaff. These were positions almost entirely held by women, minorities, or immigrants. By making the position tipped, the employer could convince them that they controlled their wages, and thus tolerate a substantially higher amount of abuse from customers. Basically, a tipped employee cannot really object to being treated like crap by a customer, while a wage earning employee most definitely can.

Essentially, tips for most employees are a potent symbol that the workers don't even have the right to pay: they literally get whatever customers decide to give.

I think we should all take a moment and see what Adam has to say about tipping.

Supposedly the "Tipless" restaurant is a growing trend..... or something.

 Smacks wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
I wouldn't consider tipping the US to be "whimsical generosity" either.

The customer is under no legal obligation to tip, so the server has no legal right to expect payment. Other than a vague threat that someone might spit in your food if you return to the restaurant, there is really no incentive for the customer to tip, that I can see, other than generosity.

 Hordini wrote:
it's going to be coming from the customer anyway, because restaurants would raise their prices if they were forced to raise hourly wages.

That's just a lie, there are numerous ways a business might find money for wages without raising prices. Reducing profits and other operating costs, being notable examples. Tipping just allows business to pad their profits at the expense of employees, by making out it is the responsibility of customers to ensure servers receive a decent wage, which it clearly isn't. It is the responsibility of employers and legislators.

In regards to the first part, I think that's just your unfamiliarity with American tipping culture. Tipping is the norm here. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't tip or tip poorly, but overall, at the end of the shift (or at the end of the week), the average money a good server takes home is well over minimum wage.

In regards to the second part, you think I'm lying? Do you know what a lie is? And I never said or even suggested that there weren't other ways a business could find more money. I'm just saying that that's not going to happen when businesses can easily use being forced to raise hourly wages as a way to raise prices. If you think they are going to purposely cut into their profit margins, well, sure it's theoretically possible, but it's also incredibly unlikely. And I'm not necessarily saying that they shouldn't, I'm just saying that they won't.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. It's got nothing to do with who's "responsible" for ensuring that servers get a decent wage and I'm not sure why you are so hung up on that. The point is, servers do get a decent wage, and it's because of their tips. If servers hourly wages were raised to minimum wage and we got rid of tipping, would you feel better about it, even though they would then be making massively less money?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
As a European looking in, tips are cancer. It is hard to reform a broken system where the employers have little incentive to do so.

I don't see how tips are cancer when they allow servers to make a decent wage. At some places you can make multiple hundreds of dollars in a night. Working as a server or a bartender is one of the few jobs you can get without any higher education whatsoever and still make a decent wage, and it's because of the tips. Servers get paid $2.13 an hour by the restaurant. Don't mistake that as servers are only taking home $2.13 an hour. Most good servers at reputable establishments don't even take home any actual money from their hourly wage because their entire pay check is taken out in taxes, because they are taking home hundreds of dollars in tips every week.

This restaurant was conducting business practices that are straight up illegal and shouldn't be taken as the normal state of affairs in the restaurant business.

The same thing could happen in a European bar restaurant, there's 0 difference. The only difference is that the European bartender/server knows that even if he has an really slow night, customers complaining and being dicks over minor things or generally because cheap and not tipping, the European/UK person knows they still get to take home a wage for the night that they can put towards rent and bills. Those hundreds of euros/pounds they take home from tips is because they've been a good server, customers have enjoyed themselves and want to reward the service so gift a little money, not because of this obligation the US has that requires the general public to pay a percentage of their own money to keep a roof over the waiter's heads and bread on a bartender's table. The whole system just undermines the idea of "I do a job for you and you reward that work with money" by offloading the financial cost onto the customers.

The server isn't just doing a job for the employer though, they're doing a job for the customer as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
So the law to allow employers to pay less than minimum wage but allow workers to suppliment it with tips, is a way of encouraging new businesses to setup (ie lower labour costs/ wages bill)?

Well, technically it's still a minimum wage. There is a separate minimum wage for tipped employees, and if what they make in tips doesn't add up to at least the regular minimum wage, restaurants have to make up the difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:


But it should be illegal to pay a man less than minimum wage. A culture that tips for adequate service has enabled employers to pay servers far less than their labour is worth, under the assumption that Joe Public will step in and fork over the cost of living, if he feels like it. It places people in a vulnerable situation, at the mercy of strangers.
In Brazil there are guys who will rush to wash your windshield when you stop at traffic lights. Then they'll ask for money. It's essentially combination begging and service provision which is what tips amount to.

It is illegal. If the server doesn't make at least minimum wage with his tips included, the restaurant has to make up the difference. And it's nothing like what you're describing in Brazil. You know what you are getting into if you go into a restaurant with servers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

 aldo wrote:
So it's one of those "American things" based on the assumption that people is actually nice and has translated from "people is nice" to "people is going to be nice because tradition and social pressure"?

Yeah, its hard for us, cynical europeans, with our constant wars and absolute distrust of anyone outside our closest circles to understand how the many things in America that are based on people being "nice" and "generous" actually work without collapsing, we usually need our government to force us to be nice to others.

Granted, that may just be Spain or my own distorted perception of it, havent traveled that much of Europe.

Oh, no, it's a deeply cynical tradition. Tipped professions were traditionally fairly servile positions: bellhops, shoeshine boys, and waitstaff. These were positions almost entirely held by women, minorities, or immigrants. By making the position tipped, the employer could convince them that they controlled their wages, and thus tolerate a substantially higher amount of abuse from customers. Basically, a tipped employee cannot really object to being treated like crap by a customer, while a wage earning employee most definitely can.

Essentially, tips for most employees are a potent symbol that the workers don't even have the right to pay: they literally get whatever customers decide to give.

As someone who has worked in the restaurant business and has many friends and acquaintances who still do, I can assure you that a tipped employee can absolutely object to being treated like crap by a customer. The workers do have the right to pay. As stated they will at least make minimum wage and can regularly make much more. And if a customer establishes a reputation as a poor tipper, or someone who treats the employees like crap, they can expect a noticeable drop in the quality of service.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aldo wrote:
So it's one of those "American things" based on the assumption that people is actually nice and has translated from "people is nice" to "people is going to be nice because tradition and social pressure"?

Yeah, its hard for us, cynical europeans, with our constant wars and absolute distrust of anyone outside our closest circles to understand how the many things in America that are based on people being "nice" and "generous" actually work without collapsing, we usually need our government to force us to be nice to others.

Granted, that may just be Spain or my own distorted perception of it, havent traveled that much of Europe.

Some people are actually just nice, as well. I assure you it's a real thing. And people who are not nice will treat servers like crap and generally be crappy tippers as well.

In my early twenties I worked in various restaurants, bars and one hotel. I was minimum wage (sometimes min+50 cents or a dollar) plus tips. None of the places went under because of the onerous burden of paying me a fair wage. My tips varied wildly from nearly nothing on a slow night to 250 on the best night.

How do they calculate how much less than minimum wage tips are worth?

 feeder wrote:
In my early twenties I worked in various restaurants, bars and one hotel. I was minimum wage (sometimes min+50 cents or a dollar) plus tips. None of the places went under because of the onerous burden of paying me a fair wage. My tips varied wildly from nearly nothing on a slow night to 250 on the best night.

How do they calculate how much less than minimum wage tips are worth?

Servers and bartenders have to report their tips. The employer knows how much they've made and has to make up the difference to meet the minimum wage if the total is under.

 Hordini wrote:

 feeder wrote:
In my early twenties I worked in various restaurants, bars and one hotel. I was minimum wage (sometimes min+50 cents or a dollar) plus tips. None of the places went under because of the onerous burden of paying me a fair wage. My tips varied wildly from nearly nothing on a slow night to 250 on the best night.

How do they calculate how much less than minimum wage tips are worth?

Servers and bartenders have to report their tips. The employer knows how much they've made and has to make up the difference to meet the minimum wage if the total is under.

So it's safe to assume servers in low end diners and greasy spoons are making minimum wage?

 feeder wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 feeder wrote:
In my early twenties I worked in various restaurants, bars and one hotel. I was minimum wage (sometimes min+50 cents or a dollar) plus tips. None of the places went under because of the onerous burden of paying me a fair wage. My tips varied wildly from nearly nothing on a slow night to 250 on the best night.

How do they calculate how much less than minimum wage tips are worth?

Servers and bartenders have to report their tips. The employer knows how much they've made and has to make up the difference to meet the minimum wage if the total is under.

So it's safe to assume servers in low end diners and greasy spoons are making minimum wage?

Unless the business is operating illegally, then yes, they will at least be making minimum wage.

Wage laws do vary by state, too - in California, all tipped employees still fall under "normal" minimum wage laws (currently $9/hour).

Back when I waited tables & (federal) minimum wage was at $4.25/hour, it was a rare shift when I didn't average over $10/hour. Fantastic for a teenager; still much better than minimum wage for an adult.

There are some restaurants trying out "no tipping" policies; Joe's Crab Shack rolled that out as a nat'l policy last November, and upped waitstaff from $2.13/hour to $14/hour and higher (they also bumped prices 12-15% to compensate). Should be interesting to see how that goes over, particularly in California (as it would likely be a major pay cut here, unless they're paying their servers in the $22/hour range). But TANSTAAFL - if waitstaff are getting more money from their employer, then the employer is going to raise prices (or hide behind "service charges applied at the end of the bill); net cost to the customer is going to be similar.

 Hordini wrote:
In regards to the first part, I think that's just your unfamiliarity with American tipping culture. Tipping is the norm here. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't tip or tip poorly, but overall, at the end of the shift (or at the end of the week), the average money a good server takes home is well over minimum wage.

In regards to the second part, you think I'm lying? Do you know what a lie is? And I never said or even suggested that there weren't other ways a business could find more money. I'm just saying that that's not going to happen when businesses can easily use being forced to raise hourly wages as a way to raise prices. If you think they are going to purposely cut into their profit margins, well, sure it's theoretically possible, but it's also incredibly unlikely. And I'm not necessarily saying that they shouldn't, I'm just saying that they won't.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. It's got nothing to do with who's "responsible" for ensuring that servers get a decent wage and I'm not sure why you are so hung up on that. The point is, servers do get a decent wage, and it's because of their tips. If servers hourly wages were raised to minimum wage and we got rid of tipping, would you feel better about it, even though they would then be making massively less money?

I realise that tipping is "expected". Despite what others have said it is also very common here. I would consider it rude to not leave an extra 10% in a restaurant, and I also tip delivery boys, taxi drivers, barbers, and sometimes bar staff (never pub staff though). Though it really is a gratuity here, staff are usually very appreciative to receive to any sort of tip, even just a couple of pound coins.

You're saying that a "good" server, can make a lot of money, but in the Adam ruins everything video he cites a study that indicates tipping is fairly random, regardless of how good you are, which I find quite believable... Unless a server is particularly bad, the amount I tip is probably going to be the same percentage, and any extra will hinge on things like how much change I have, and if I'm able to get out more cash before I need it etc... Also it doesn't matter how "good" you are if there are no customers, or you get sick and need to miss a day.

I don't believe tipping should be eliminated, it can be a very nice gesture if it is meant well. However, the situation in America is a horrible parody of what it should be. People tip even if they didn't appreciate the service because they feel pressured to, and staff seem to be more expectant than grateful. There is no reason why a good server should not be well paid, and also receive some good tips.

As for the lying part... I apologise, I'm not calling you liar. Just the "businesses would have to raise prices" line gets spouted quite a lot in conversations about minimum wage and tipping, often by business owners, who have a vested interest in shouting down anything that might cut into their profits. But it's fairly easy to debunk.

100% what Smacks said. My roommates are awful tippers. No matter how much I tell them, 15% is NOT above and beyond for tipping. My standard is 20% unless the service sucks. My roommates also believe tax is 8% everywhere. And just double it. I've explained to them over and over. And they're good people. They just think wait staff should make real wages, and not to depend on tips. Which is great to support; if you only want to eat in restaurants that have adopted that policy.
I tip delivery drivers, taxi drivers, hair cutters, and even the person at the counter when I get takeout. Takeout gets a buck or two, depending on order size.

 Smacks wrote:
As for the lying part... I apologise, I'm not calling you liar. Just the "businesses would have to raise prices" line gets spouted quite a lot in conversations about minimum wage and tipping, often by business owners, who have a vested interest in shouting down anything that might cut into their profits. But it's fairly easy to debunk.

Apology accepted. We're good.

I fully agree that businesses wouldn't have to raise prices. I just have enough of a sense of cynicism that I have a very hard time believing that most of them wouldn't use getting rid of tipping and raising hourly wages as an excuse to do so.

 Hordini wrote:
I fully agree that businesses wouldn't have to raise prices. I just have enough of a sense of cynicism that I have a very hard time believing that most of them wouldn't use getting rid of tipping and raising hourly wages as an excuse to do so.

Thing is - businesses can raise prices any time they please. For any reason they want, or even without giving a reason. What stops them is simple market mechanics - if you charge more than other businesses selling the same kind of thing you lose customers. And you lose customers whether there's a sign out the front saying 'price increase due to no more tipping' or not.