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 cranect wrote:
My issue with it is its basically giving us things we already had. Sure turn one charge is "possible" but we could already get a reliable turn two charge even on foot. The hammer of wrath you will not normally get more than 10 S3 hits at most which isn't likely to do much of anything. The only big upside is it can make ghazzy actually worthy of the LoW title. As said though that is very expensive. The only reason to run this that I can see is to bring ghazzy and company to hit stuff.

This is the issue. People have been using the formations that gave multiple Waaaaghs except turn 1, and have been getting curb stomped by fluff lists. Adding 1 more waaagh helps, but Orks still get creamed by just about everybody except BA, CSM and non-flyrant nids.

This release is a bit hard to understand as non ork player.
At first sight it looks just as more options so not that bad even if the new options aren't as buffed as they wished them to be.

This is why this isnt the case at all. Ghaz supplement actually NERFS orks (unless you are using ghaz). Orks have a gakky rule called the mob rule and this book makes that rule a lot worse. The new rule will make it impossible for small squads to get a positive result on the mob rule table and big squads get more dmg from it. That is right this supplement makes your 6+ sv dudes hit themselves more often. On top of that it adds a must challenge rule. Sure cool for gazz but ork warbosses are i1 with no invsave.


The reason why some ork players are annoyed by the book is because gw made an devilish tease.

You can avoid all these nerfs and finally play orks sort off the way you used to do before the 7th codex . the catch is that you just have to buy a completely useless squad for 600+ points pre upgrades. No one in his right mind will ever spend more then 1/3 of his army on a squad that doesnt work as a death star. Remember that squad is still nude and footslogging, Ghaz is the only one with an Inv save and all models who want to have Ap3 or better are I1.

GW relies upon sales data when allocating resources. If you look at the last big Ork releases, you can quite easily understand why they got the short end of the stick:

1. Gorkanaut: questionable design aesthetics; really poor rules; only $10 cheaper than a much larger Stompa.
2. Mek Gunz: rules decent; price ridiculous.
3. Mega Nobz: sculpts are nearly identical to the previous design; TEQs without true TEQ benefits.
4. Flash Gitz: decent sculpts; expensive, short-ranged shooty unit with no Sv.

None of those release were homeruns, and they all had glaring problems either from a model, pricing, or rules perspective. My educated guess is that the last round of Ork releases didn't do well from a fianancial standpoint. Therefore, GW is able to place the blame for lack of rules updates squarely on the customer's shoulders. So, in a nutshell, it's all your fault the Orks get shafted

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_Armyman wrote:
GW relies upon sales data when allocating resources. If you look at the last big Ork releases, you can quite easily understand why they got the short end of the stick:

1. Gorkanaut: questionable design aesthetics; really poor rules; only $10 cheaper than a much larger Stompa.
2. Mek Gunz: rules decent; price ridiculous.
3. Mega Nobz: sculpts are nearly identical to the previous design; TEQs without true TEQ benefits.
4. Flash Gitz: decent sculpts; expensive, short-ranged shooty unit with no Sv.

None of those release were homeruns, and they all had glaring problems either from a model, pricing, or rules perspective. My educated guess is that the last round of Ork releases didn't do well from a fianancial standpoint. Therefore, GW is able to place the blame for lack of rules updates squarely on the customer's shoulders. So, in a nutshell, it's all your fault the Orks get shafted

The strange thing is that Orks didn't really get the short side of the stick if you look at resource allocations. They did spend quite a lot really.

In the last few yeas orks got:

Codex.
Codex supplement.
Psy powers
Tactical objectives
---------------------------------------- this is kinda the average treatment
On top of that they got.
- Tons of new models
- White dwarf release of the looted wagon
- Starter set Stormclaw
- Hour of the Wolf : Tons of fomations and missions
- The Red Waaagh!: Tons of formations and missions
- Whaagh! Ghazghkull second edition.

So they spend lots of resources on orks but somehow they have decided that they can't have good rules.
I really don't get it. Just writing a few good buffs in one of those 5 non codex books doesn't cost them a thing and would result in lots of happy ork players.
The true reasoning behind this all must be more complex or the designer responsible for the ork army is a stubborn idiot that somehow is deaf for the arguments of the sales department.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
My problem (same I had with the recent Daemons supplement) isn't the special rules, it's the REQUIREMENTS to unlock it. Look at half these formations, how many units do you have to take in just core and an auxillary? The Daemons supplement is the same, most require 6+ units to unlock ONE formation.

The Eldar Warhost is the same way. Do you think that Eldar players really want to take Vypers?
The marine Gladius formation is the same. A chaplain and assault marines are just an annoying tax.
To get the perks of the formation, you have to pay the tax. If you don't want the perks, don't play the formation.

The difference is those taxes are fairly cheap. It's a minor annoyance at best. I don't know if i'd call anything in there a tax, but the sheer amount of points you need to invest in them makes the Orkcurion an almost Apocalypse-level formation in all but name.

To put it simply, even with the tax, you can play those formations in reasonably low points levels. Orks (and by extension IG) not so much.

EDIT: I suspect the crap-ness of the two Ork releases is so that GW can ease the board into discontinuing them, as Orks encourages people to convert stuff rather than buy GLORIOUS GW MODELS and GW probably thinks they're bleeding money from it (Nevermind that people are buying OTHER GW models to convert into Ork stuff).

 oldzoggy wrote:

The strange thing is that Orks didn't really get the short side of the stick if you look at resource allocations. They did spend quite a lot really.

In the last few yeas orks got:

Codex.
Codex supplement.
Psy powers
Tactical objectives
---------------------------------------- this is kinda the average treatment
On top of that they got.
- Tons of new models
- White dwarf release of the looted wagon
- Starter set Stormclaw
- Hour of the Wolf : Tons of fomations and missions
- The Red Waaagh!: Tons of formations and missions
- Whaagh! Ghazghkull second edition.

Most of your bullet points came as part of their codex release, so it was basically the standard new codex/release treatment. The looted wagon in WD was a mistake. GW unintentionally left it out of the codex, amd only discovered this after the codex print run. WD lead time is much shorter, so the mistake was covered up as a WD Exclusive Dataslate.

Stormclaw needed a bad guy, and both Chaos and Tyranids had already represented the NPC race in Dark Vengeance and Shield of Baal (notice a trend?).

The true reasoning behind this all must be more complex or the designer responsible for the ork army is a stubborn idiot that somehow is deaf for the arguments of the sales department.

Never attribute malice as a reason when incompetence will suffice!

Good point most of it was before 7,5 but this Ghazzy update is post all the 7,5 stuff why didn't this include some decent rules and why wasn't the looted wagon included in the book ?

For example just a few lines anywhere in the book buffing the orkanauts to (semi) super heavies would have resulted in tons of sales.
I for sure would have looked differently at those you must buy a ton of walkers formations as core if they where at least half decent.
And I currently only own 6 killakans so this would result me in buying lots of stuff.

Or perhaps even simpler just making the formations less boated. The dread mob for sure seems interesting, giving them 'er we go might just make them viable in some games. But I do not want to sink more then 65% of my points into it.

Some like to be blind to the mistreatment of orks and focus on the Waaagh every turn.....do you even know the units that can actually use that rule?
The only good model for cost that uses that rule are tankbustas.
Bikes, defkoptas, meganobz, and every one of our decent vehicles do not use this rule. This update is a dispoitment.
There's a reason I mostly run bigmeks with da thinkin kap, since I rarely use the waaagh.
Army wide fearless with ghaz is amazing though, it helps all ork units who don't have hull points. Too bad you can barely fit the council in an average 1850/1500 game. This revised supliment is beyond reasoning.
The only way I can explain gw lack of interest in ork sales is to force ork players to switch to eldar, necron, tau or marines.

 oldzoggy wrote:

In the last few yeas orks got:

Codex.
Codex supplement.
Psy powers
Tactical objectives

The Codex is 7th edition, but weaker than all others.
Supplement has rules that benefit the opponent more than us, and then was just nerfed.
Psy powers are the weakest in the game
Tactical objectives are the weakest in the game

Some one made a good point about the ork decurion. Unlike ALL the other decurions, if you kill one model, the orks lose half their decurion benefits.

Imagine if you killed the enemy marine warlord and they had to remove all their free transports....

Also S3 HoW is a joke , and again once below 10 models , it goes away. So both decurion benefits can be removed. Trukk boyz only have 12 models, kill 3, no more HoW.

Give me a way to remove the +1 to necron RP, or the free transports or free wargear by killing 1 model.

 Brennonjw wrote:

I still fail to see how 6 WAAAGH!'s a game is useless? I mean, god forbid you manage to get into CC without taking many shooting casualties. pair that with no longer needing to roll 10+ on the charge to get HoW and it's even better. YES, it's not SM or Necron level of bonuses, but they are hardly useless.

Orks allready had WAAAGH! every turn after the 1-st with the exact same formation but without awful +2 to mob rule and mandatory warlord challenges. And you most likely won't need 1 turn WAAGH and won't notice a couple s3 HOW.

All we are trying to say is that orcurion is pointless as it is mostly worse than what we had before. The only part which is somewhat better is constant 2++ ghazzy and fearless army but once again, it is just too expensive for a regular game to consider. You also don't get fortifications and almost no support as there are not enough points for that. So, you basically have to pray for 1-st turn to not get shot off the board with your awful mob rule before getting fearless.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
Some one made a good point about the ork decurion. Unlike ALL the other decurions, if you kill one model, the orks lose half their decurion benefits.

Imagine if you killed the enemy marine warlord and they had to remove all their free transports....

Also S3 HoW is a joke , and again once below 10 models , it goes away. So both decurion benefits can be removed. Trukk boyz only have 12 models, kill 3, no more HoW.

Give me a way to remove the +1 to necron RP, or the free transports or free wargear by killing 1 model.

That is basically how IG works & its lame. Lose your commander, no more orders...but I guess it makes sense to some degree. Still, I do not feel this decurion formation is on par with many others. An actual codex update with point reductions & fixes are necessary if GW actually wants to make orks competitive.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Still, I do not feel this decurion formation is on par with many others.

I do not feel ork decurion is on par with ork CAD.

Also, the SW decurion has the same problem, but they lose their bonus for taking two cores when their HQ dies.

It would've been nice if there had been bonuses depending on the type of Orks you ran - example, two core speed freakz detachment would get any unit that can take a truck can take it for free, but still paying for upgrades.

are we that spoiled that we now NEED free stuff for a formation to be 'good'? I understand it's not amazing, but come on, really? What's next, are we gonna demand that Kans, deff dreads, and stompas be MC/GMC since those are better then walker rules?

 Brennonjw wrote:
are we that spoiled that we now NEED free stuff for a formation to be 'good'? I understand it's not amazing, but come on, really? What's next, are we gonna demand that Kans, deff dreads, and stompas be MC/GMC since those are better then walker rules?

yeah, why would i want bonuses on a formation? it's not like all the other core formation gives bonuses, and it's not like if i take a formation instead of a cad it's for the bonuses that the formation gives me....

Of course there's someone at the helm at gw and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Of course there's someone at the helm at gw and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Are they?

General question to Dakanaut Ork players: Who is buying the the Ghaz book?

nope, I see not advantage to using anything from this book. The bonuses over the formation I already have is questionable at best.

I'm starting to dislike this campaign book system instead of a new codex.

Eh, it's only $33, I might pick it up for some fun reading and some of the new missions. As for the formations, most of them are "Eh" at best

 JimOnMars wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Of course there's someone at the helm at gw and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Are they?

General question to Dakanaut Ork players: Who is buying the the Ghaz book?

Honestly, probably me. It's cheaper than their usual fare, and offers some new ways to play.

I won't argue with anyone that says it's a pile of hastily-written and barely thought out, mostly useless rules, but eh. There's quite a bit of new information that's going to be difficult to keep straight without the book, and I honestly want to try it out.

I mean, it's not any worse than the first ghaz book, and I bought that for $50. Though, I bought the escalation book and then 7th came out with super-heavy rules so maybe I'm just a sucker.

There are some nice formations, but they cost a lot of Points. we Play 1500 Points and its hard to sqeeze the blitzbrigade, the bullyboys or the flyskyboss wingnutz air Armada into it.
Those formations are more made for apocalypse I guess. Compared with the buffs Dangles get its all gak

(Air Armada is in Hour of the wolf)

Is there a way to tell the 2 versions apart?
Different cover or anything?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Is there a way to tell the 2 versions apart?
Different cover or anything?

Well the new one is paperback and follows the same style of font/white colour for its title compared to the previous ghazghkull book.

 Negach wrote:
There are some nice formations, but they cost a lot of Points. we Play 1500 Points and its hard to sqeeze the blitzbrigade, the bullyboys or the flyskyboss wingnutz air Armada into it.
Those formations are more made for apocalypse I guess. Compared with the buffs Dangles get its all gak

Now that you mention it, I actually think this would be a lot fun in apoc, especially with ghaz rokkin' a 2+ invlun and fearless army. And you'd be able to take more than 2 formations.

GW has their own ideas about how each army should be played, so they write the rules with those ideas in mind. GW feels every Ork army core should be made up of gobs and gobs of foot sloggin' boyz, so as a result, you get a 1200 point main detachment.

Sadly, this rules approach doesn't seem to be applied to every army, only certain ones get pigeonholed into a specific style, and its usually those that are viewed as "assault specialists" such as Orks, Chaos, and Nids.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Is there a way to tell the 2 versions apart?
Different cover or anything?

They finally took the old one off the website...it seems like now you can only buy the new one.

Watch ebay....I already caught one guy selling the old one, and conveniently forgetting to mention it is no longer valid.

Also, with the old book gone, the only way to get the Green Tide formation is in Apocalypse. Good luck convincing anyone to allow you to play it now.

Sorry, Green Tide players, You Are Banned.

I hope you are kidding.

Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.