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Commissar Benny wrote:
Let me start off by saying I don't play orks but thank you GW for giving orks a minor update. Not exactly what ork players were looking for (I am friends with many of them) but, at least it acknowledges that GW still knows they are an army & they exist. Now we know that GW is no longer a games company. It is a model company. They have made that very clear. So if we know GW does not care about what players want, can we at least subscribe to the idea that it would be in their best interest to "sell" models yes?

How then does shoehorning a player into a specific playstyle with bottom of the barrel formations that are so over-priced and underwhelming even in casual games incentivize players to purchase models? How does less flexibility/options make an army more appealing? Orks have been under performing for years now, like many other codex's & so you think forcing them to pay 1200pts to get fearless every turn somehow will resolve all of their problems?

I don't know if this is the new direction the 40k game is headed...where codex's are no longer a thing but that notion needs to be revisited. Orks, like many armies have HUGE issues within their codex that no fancy formation is going to resolve. Hopefully this is just a appetizer for what is to come for ork players but if this is all they get for another 5 years...then don't blame players/lack of interest for why the army is not selling.

I have seen so much positive feedback from the 40k community & very legitimate solutions to problems in many of the codex's that I simply can not comprehend why GW's design team doesn't just copy paste the ideas & take credit themselves. It would literally take no work on their behalf whatsoever, sell sh*tloads of models & reinvigorate interest in armies that are under performing.

I love my orks and I have enough to play about whatever army style I want. I'm not to impressed with the updates. Personally, I've not waagh'ed in a very long time. Usually Mek heavy and don't have the ability to waagh. If the waagh rule gets change in a codex update that would be great. I think a turn an ork player waaghs it should spell doom for the opponent. Now it functions no more than a delivery system. The dakkajet gave me hope that is has a bonus for the waagh turn. Which is kind of cool when you factor that into the new/updated formations. It would be nice if more units had waagh turn abilities. It would almost make the orks more in line with Khorne deamonkin and sisters of battle. Basically orks call the waagh and all the units get this bonus for them. (Lootas fire 2d3, Burnas have shred, Tank bustas are change from assault 1 to assault 1 blast, flash gitz ignore cover, etc etc) or make it so the Ork decurion gives units the ability to by 'eavy armor if they can't already. There are thousands of suggestions that could be made.

I play for two years now against 2 guys who play since 20 years.
The most funny stories are the battles against orks a loooong time ago. I think it was 2.edition.
The orks must have been extremly powerful but absolutly chaotic, so you could never say what was Happening in the ork turn.
Maybe the bikes collidated against each other. The only Thing that remained is the snotzogga or the blitzabommer.
It is sad, but all other codices have been written not to make the game better, but to make Money.

The big issue with the Ork-Curion is that both of its benefits can be taken away. Kill the Warlord, no Waaagh!, drop the squads below 10, no HoW. No one else has to deal with that. The other issue is, is that the Formation shoe horns you into one of two play styles, Trukk or Walker spam, while completely ignoring the myriad of other play-styles. So no Warbiker hordes, no running tons of specialist boyz.

From a personal standpoint, i never run more than 4 Mobz of boys and i dont own a single Deff Dredd, so this entire formation is Dead on Arrival for me, and thats the problem. The Necron Decurion didnt force them to buy a whole new army, most of them just had to buy a box of Tomb Blades. I would have to either A) almost double the number of Boyz i have and then get Trukks for all of them (as i only have 2) or B) buy a ton of overpriced Walkers i dont really want..

To make matters worse its really hard to get a Painboy in this Formation, and we need those.

Slight disclaimer here: I dont play competitively and have no intention of doing so, but i would like my Codex to at least function properly and with the way it is now, it barely does that.

 Negach wrote:
I play for two years now against 2 guys who play since 20 years.
The most funny stories are the battles against orks a loooong time ago. I think it was 2.edition.
The orks must have been extremly powerful but absolutly chaotic, so you could never say what was Happening in the ork turn.
Maybe the bikes collidated against each other. The only Thing that remained is the snotzogga or the blitzabommer.
It is sad, but all other codices have been written not to make the game better, but to make Money.

Orks were fun in past editions. From the tail end of 4th till the beginning of 6th (once that Tau book came out it was their Deathknell) i had a lot of fun running my Boyz. After early 6th it stopped being fun because it was nearly impossible for me to win, because i couldnt even make it into melee combat

 Grimmor wrote:
The big issue with the Ork-Curion is that both of its benefits can be taken away. Kill the Warlord, no Waaagh!, drop the squads below 10, no HoW. No one else has to deal with that. The other issue is, is that the Formation shoe horns you into one of two play styles, Trukk or Walker spam, while completely ignoring the myriad of other play-styles. So no Warbiker hordes, no running tons of specialist boyz.

Cadian Decurion.

Remove the Officer from the Command choice and they can no longer benefit from the additional Order on your Command choice.
And really, you want to talk about the Formation "shoehorning you into one of two playstyles"?

If you want to run the Cadian detachment, you either need 170+ infantry(15 Infantry Squads+a Platoon Command Squad for each set of 5 and 2 Company Command Squads) and 3+ Sentinels(1 minimum per Emperor's Shield Infantry Company) for a Core and Command choice or a minimum of a CCS/Tank Commander(which mandates you bring 2x Leman Russ hulls) for a Command choice(Command is our Mandatory) and then an Emperor's Fist Tank Company(1 Tank Commander+bodyguard tank, 3 Tank Squads, Techpriest Enginseer who runs on foot).


Orks got it bad, but please don't act like this was as bad as it could have been.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Cadian Decurion.

Remove the Officer from the Command choice and they can no longer benefit from the additional Order on your Command choice.
And really, you want to talk about the Formation "shoehorning you into one of two playstyles"?

If you want to run the Cadian detachment, you either need 170+ infantry(15 Infantry Squads+a Platoon Command Squad for each set of 5 and 2 Company Command Squads) and 3+ Sentinels(1 minimum per Emperor's Shield Infantry Company) for a Core and Command choice or a minimum of a CCS/Tank Commander(which mandates you bring 2x Leman Russ hulls) for a Command choice(Command is our Mandatory) and then an Emperor's Fist Tank Company(1 Tank Commander+bodyguard tank, 3 Tank Squads, Techpriest Enginseer who runs on foot).


Orks got it bad, but please don't act like this was as bad as it could have been.

Well, it was expected that orks get the same treatment as guards. There's a concept that orks and guards should be massive. Another question is why shouldn't both get anything going for them? Marines can be more numerous than orks nowadayz cause of free transports and cheap tacticals and the fact that mass boyz only work in GT which is very time consuming to play and not too easy to boot. And even didn't get listed in the "update".

 oldzoggy wrote:

shyzo wrote:
So, you take the Council, make Ghaz your warlord, and there you have it, no?

Yes you can and you will have a great GHAZ army. Ghazz will get 2++ every turn and make the rest of your army fearless. This is the only reason this book exists if you ask me to build a good GHAZ army.
The only downside is that it is really expensive and that his council is kinda bad.

Well tbf the book is called Waaagh! Ghazghkull, so it isn't surprising that Ghaz is all but mandatory if you want it to be half decent.

Still sucks for Orks in general, though.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

I... Wait, what??? A real Ork would phone a help line???

A real Ork would be off to Nottingham wiv 'is choppa to get him sum TEEF!!!

Crispy78 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

I... Wait, what??? A real Ork would phone a help line???

A real Ork would be off to Nottingham wiv 'is choppa to get him sum TEEF!!!

That would worth nothin. A umies teeth is worth nothin. It has to be an ork, an from what I can tell, der isn't a single ork amung den gitz.

mhalko1 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

To everyone saying that the green tide is illegal, this is INCORRECT.
I emailed both GW and black library complaining about the book and how I have physical copies of all the current rule sets and that this release was a terrible attempt at sales.
They responded saying that I do not have to buy the new waagh ghazghkull as there is only a few additions and correction as well as the new detachment, and that everything in the old books were still valid if you wanted to run them.
They wouldn't dare invalidate a previous detachment for this new one especially with how many people bought the supplement They just condensed the formations that they wanted to add in the orkurion and everything else has to be taken separately. They just didn't want to add it as a core or whatever it would have been in the orkurion.

If this is true, then any past edition of any book is legal. You would really be OK with me playing 5th Ed Grey Knights?

 JimOnMars wrote:
If this is true, then any past edition of any book is legal. You would really be OK with me playing 5th Ed Grey Knights?

Yes. Along with CSM 3.5E. At least in my group. But we're pretty forgiving that way.

 JimOnMars wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

To everyone saying that the green tide is illegal, this is INCORRECT.
I emailed both GW and black library complaining about the book and how I have physical copies of all the current rule sets and that this release was a terrible attempt at sales.
They responded saying that I do not have to buy the new waagh ghazghkull as there is only a few additions and correction as well as the new detachment, and that everything in the old books were still valid if you wanted to run them.
They wouldn't dare invalidate a previous detachment for this new one especially with how many people bought the supplement They just condensed the formations that they wanted to add in the orkurion and everything else has to be taken separately. They just didn't want to add it as a core or whatever it would have been in the orkurion.

If this is true, then any past edition of any book is legal. You would really be OK with me playing 5th Ed Grey Knights?

It's not a question of legality as far as I'm aware.... I don't think there has ever been anything in any rulebook that says "you must use the latest publications".

That's simply common practice, but I don't know if it's ever been "the law" (except in tournaments where they specify you have to use the newest version of rules).

I am thinking of starting orks because i love the imagery and mythology of the army and I really like the models and conversion opportunities.

I know people keep slagging off the rules, I don't own any codices. Should I get this supplement or just the basic ork codex?

Ehm guys seriously guys.

Why would you ever go for that formation if you are ok with older rules. Why would you not just go for the 4th edition codex and just avoid all 7th codex nerfs.

Lets sum up all the buffs you would get from it :
Special rules
-Mob rule fixes ld and gives fearless instead of damages you
-You don't need a warbozz to waaagh
-Red paint gives +1 move
-Boarding plank lets 1 passenger attack from inside of the transport to any vehicle within 2" of the transport.
-Wrecking ball hits on a 4+ and is no shooting attack.
-Deff rolla's are extremely deadly. -> Do S10 hits before you can react when tank shokcing.

HQ
-Ghaz is a HQ and has a better waaaagh
-Wazdakka makes bikes troops
-Old Zogwort is the I Turn you into a squig psyker is still in.
-Al characters can buy a 5++ for 10 point
-Mad Dok gives all models the option to buy a 5++ for 5 pts
-KFF protects units instead of models and works while in a transport
-Psykers havebetter powers including lots of nasty auto hitters

Elites:
-Tank busta bombz are no melta bombz but krak grenades with 2d6+6 armour penetration. Lets sink that in they can hurl those...
-Tank busta tank hammers are S10
-Loota's are elites
-Nobs can get pain boy for 30 points and 5++ for 5 points each

Troops:
-Free shoota's on boy's
-Ramschackle prevents your trucks from exploding
-Meganobz, nobz, bikes and deffdreads can be made troop !

fast:
stormboyz +zagstruk can assault out off deepstrike without using that formation.

heavy:
-Cheaper, battlewagon,deffdreads and killa kans.
-Flash gits have eavy armour build into them and can get pain boy for 30 points and 5++ for 5 points each
- Looted wagon has a better gun.

What you lose.
- ere we go
-HoW
-Mek guns
-Gorkonaut
-Pianboyz as HQ
-whaagh gives fleet instead of run and charge ( this was fleet in the time of th 5th codex)
-relics
- Ork fliers
- Mek boyz
-Saws on meganobz
- Assault grenades
- Fancy formations





Automatically Appended Next Post:

dragonelf wrote:
I am thinking of starting orks because i love the imagery and mythology of the army and I really like the models and conversion opportunities.

I know people keep slagging off the rules, I don't own any codices. Should I get this supplement or just the basic ork codex?

Basic ork 7th codex should be enough, the supplement is bad.
unless you guys allow old rules in that case buy a second hand 5th codex ; )

I don't think anyone seriously believes that you can use previous editions of rules in a current game. Of course it is a game and nothing is illegal and you can make the game what you want it to be etc etc, but everyone knows that the current edition of the codex or rules of the game is what is applicable.

As for what I should get for my imminent orks, it seems to me the codex and the supplement is what I need...

It is more subtle then that. Since there are always codexes and rulebooks in use of previous editions. Such as the current IG codex. This is why most of us use the "most recent book rule". If you just used the this edition only rule Orks woud have been the only army who could play 7th edition at the start of the 7th edition.

No, each Codex had FAQ's released for 7th edition when 7th edition rulebook came out. Same for 6th edition when every vehicle got Hull Points.

4th does look extremely fun to play though. Not quite sure why they removed the whole 'X makes Y troops', since Spess Mahreens can still do it lol

dragonelf wrote:
I don't think anyone seriously believes that you can use previous editions of rules in a current game.

I continue to play Codex: Imperial Guard and refuse to play the alternate renamed version.

dragonelf wrote:
I don't think anyone seriously believes that you can use previous editions of rules in a current game.

40k is a game of ambiguity and poor balance which is pretty gakky for pick up games anyway. I don't see any reason to not just use whichever version of a codex you want if you can agree with your opponent. Use whatever is going to bring you the most joy.

Just because it's common practice to use the most current rules doesn't mean it's "right", though I think it's logical to use each publication in its entirety (doesn't really make sense to use one unit from the 7th ed codex and another from 5th. Though even there some codices have been so gakky for so many editions I wouldn't fault someone for wanting to pick and choose with certain armies.

Crossposted from another thread...

Re: dueling editions - just saw this floating around earlier today:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/02/gw-says-choose-your-own-40k-rules.html

It's not this exact case, but one like it, in which there are two sets of conflicting rules in the same game edition. Pick what you want. This makes sense, as people who bought the first publication might not have the opportunity to get the revised version, due to whatever reasons. What would make the most sense from a tournament's perspective is if you're going to use something from a specific source, everything you use has to be from that source, ie. no mixing Green Tide with anything that comes from W!G v.2.

Considering the shenanigans that a lot of other armies can pull, like admech being able to draw from three seperate books simultaneously, this doesn't seem like a complicated solution.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

dragonelf wrote:
I don't think anyone seriously believes that you can use previous editions of rules in a current game.

40k is a game of ambiguity and poor balance which is pretty gakky for pick up games anyway. I don't see any reason to not just use whichever version of a codex you want if you can agree with your opponent. Use whatever is going to bring you the most joy.

Just because it's common practice to use the most current rules doesn't mean it's "right", though I think it's logical to use each publication in its entirety (doesn't really make sense to use one unit from the 7th ed codex and another from 5th. Though even there some codices have been so gakky for so many editions I wouldn't fault someone for wanting to pick and choose with certain armies.

That is precisely how I play it. I play Codex: Imperial Guard, and draw all of my forces from that single Codex.

The idea of mix-and-match across Codices seems a bit odd, especially when you consider the oddities of rules and stats and abilities in addition to varying points costs.