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Let me start off by saying I don't play orks but thank you GW for giving orks a minor update. Not exactly what ork players were looking for (I am friends with many of them) but, at least it acknowledges that GW still knows they are an army & they exist. Now we know that GW is no longer a games company. It is a model company. They have made that very clear. So if we know GW does not care about what players want, can we at least subscribe to the idea that it would be in their best interest to "sell" models yes?

How then does shoehorning a player into a specific playstyle with bottom of the barrel formations that are so over-priced and underwhelming even in casual games incentivize players to purchase models? How does less flexibility/options make an army more appealing? Orks have been under performing for years now, like many other codex's & so you think forcing them to pay 1200pts to get fearless every turn somehow will resolve all of their problems?

I don't know if this is the new direction the 40k game is headed...where codex's are no longer a thing but that notion needs to be revisited. Orks, like many armies have HUGE issues within their codex that no fancy formation is going to resolve. Hopefully this is just a appetizer for what is to come for ork players but if this is all they get for another 5 years...then don't blame players/lack of interest for why the army is not selling.

I have seen so much positive feedback from the 40k community & very legitimate solutions to problems in many of the codex's that I simply can not comprehend why GW's design team doesn't just copy paste the ideas & take credit themselves. It would literally take no work on their behalf whatsoever, sell sh*tloads of models & reinvigorate interest in armies that are under performing.

I simply can not comprehend why GW's design team doesn't just copy paste the ideas & take credit themselves.

GW doesn't read forums.

Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

 Psienesis wrote:

I simply can not comprehend why GW's design team doesn't just copy paste the ideas & take credit themselves.

GW doesn't read forums.

Or do customer surveys.

They have no clue what is viewed as good or bad and don't care.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

The rules are available on many sites. I don't know if it is permitted to post them here so I won't. My inner circle of ork players is very discouraged. Judging by the reactions I've seen on other sites, they appear to be valid. Half the fun of 40k is creating a list. Forcing players to take (a)(b)(c) @ 1000-1200+ points to every game, just so they can get a bonus that used to inherent within the codex in the past at no cost is hardly something to get excited about. Orks used to be fearless as long as (x) number of boyz were within a certain proximity. Something that should never have been removed in the first place.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

We have them. They are 3 of each of the flyers, with small negligible benefits.

That means yes indeed there are no formations that feature Deffbuggies, bikers, nob bikers, Lootas, burnas, Weirdboyz, Wartrakks, stompas, Mek Gunz, gretchins, or looted wagons, but there are four flyer formations and five walker formations.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

The rules are available on many sites. I don't know if it is permitted to post them here so I won't. My inner circle of ork players is very discouraged. Judging by the reactions I've seen on other sites, they appear to be valid. Half the fun of 40k is creating a list. Forcing players to take (a)(b)(c) @ 1000-1200+ points to every game, just so they can get a bonus that used to inherent within the codex in the past at no cost is hardly something to get excited about. Orks used to be fearless as long as (x) number of boyz were within a certain proximity. Something that should never have been removed in the first place.

Odd you say that, because every site I visited so far has either the OLD rules (who may or may not have changed), or none at all. have yet to see a single confirmed picture of any of the formations as they are in the new orkurion.

The N&R thread on Dakka has a basic picture of the contents, if not the rules, of the new formations as well as the decurion benefits.

There you can see "3 Dakkajets, 3 Blitza-bommers, 3 Burna bommers" for the three new formations at the very least.

If you're still saying "c'mon guys these rules could be lies the benefits for those flyers could be really good" after that you're in so much denial I can't help you.

I'm well aware that the orkurion rules are known, and that the contents of the formations are known.

The rules of the formationsthemselves however, are not. all we have at this point is their old version, and as tau formations proved, they are subject to change. many old tau formations are very different from their origin to Kayoun/mont'ka versions.

The fact there are so many flyer formations is silly as hell, I'll give you that though.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I'm well aware that the orkurion rules are known, and that the contents of the formations are known.

The rules of the formationsthemselves however, are not. all we have at this point is their old version, and as tau formations proved, they are subject to change. many old tau formations are very different from their origin to Kayoun/mont'ka versions.

The fact there are so many flyer formations is silly as hell, I'll give you that though.

The new and old formations are all known as a bug/feature in the ebook system meant people could update their books early. Most of the are straight copied while a few have very minimal changes, such as rage instead of furious charge.

Go check out the News and Rumours article for all the juicy details and lamenting.

Don't know what all the fuss is about, there are several very good Ork players in my FLGS who have been playing them for years and they are ecstatic about this new Orkcurion. A lot of the issues I see stems from the tax in some of the formations but even then they agree that it is manageable or well costed and their opinion. Bottom line however I agree, it is way too soon to make judgments about it and it's effectiveness, give it at least a few weeks after its release before doing so.

 gmaleron wrote:
Don't know what all the fuss is about, there are several very good Ork players in my FLGS who have been playing them for years and they are ecstatic about this new Orkcurion. A lot of the issues I see stems from the tax in some of the formations but even then they agree that it is manageable or well costed and their opinion. Bottom line however I agree, it is way too soon to make judgments about it and it's effectiveness, give it at least a few weeks after its release before doing so.

The thing is, the detachment doesn't really help Orks.
For Necrons, aside a Codex overhaul, their Decurion turns them from annoyingingly hard to kill to nigh unkillable foes.
For SM and DA, their Codexes are meh aside Grav Spam, so they got ways to improve their durability.
For Tau, they struggled with Deathstars, so they got a way to get through it.

For Orks, they got something that they could already do.
It's also super expensive and hard to optimise in 1850, let alone 1500, which is the standard limit for tournament games.

Considering the power creep that people expected GW to go in, this was unexpected and a let down for Orks.

The Orkcurion is pretty bad. It requires a huge point investment for the core and the bonus is weak compared to what other armies get for taking their mega detachment.

Compare the ork's bonuses to Free transports and combat doctrines, or what Necrons get.

GW isn't even trying any more.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I'm well aware that the orkurion rules are known, and that the contents of the formations are known.

The rules of the formationsthemselves however, are not. all we have at this point is their old version, and as tau formations proved, they are subject to change. many old tau formations are very different from their origin to Kayoun/mont'ka versions.

The fact there are so many flyer formations is silly as hell, I'll give you that though.

While nothing we've seen yet is encouraging, this is a reason to keep up hope. Da green horde rule seems to have been updated to no longer require a roll of 10+ on charge distance. While most of the formations look like copy & paste, they might be tweaking things a bit. I can only hope Da Boss iz Watchin' does something somewhat useful now instead of consistently hurting small units (which there seem to be a lot of in the formations).

The Orkcurion is in the same boat as the Guard: mediocre bonuses for an incredibly high investment.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Don't know what all the fuss is about, there are several very good Ork players in my FLGS who have been playing them for years and they are ecstatic about this new Orkcurion. A lot of the issues I see stems from the tax in some of the formations but even then they agree that it is manageable or well costed and their opinion. Bottom line however I agree, it is way too soon to make judgments about it and it's effectiveness, give it at least a few weeks after its release before doing so.

The thing is, the detachment doesn't really help Orks.
For Necrons, aside a Codex overhaul, their Decurion turns them from annoyingingly hard to kill to nigh unkillable foes.
For SM and DA, their Codexes are meh aside Grav Spam, so they got ways to improve their durability.
For Tau, they struggled with Deathstars, so they got a way to get through it.

For Orks, they got something that they could already do.
It's also super expensive and hard to optimise in 1850, let alone 1500, which is the standard limit for tournament games.

Considering the power creep that people expected GW to go in, this was unexpected and a let down for Orks.

Maybe I'm too jaded as an ork player now, but I was 100% expecting to be let down.

@ the OP:

Remember this is the same company who concluded that the reason no one bought Fantasy Models was because of points limits and not because of the freakishly high price or increasingly unbalanced rules. Or Ward's fluff butchery. This is also the company who, at one point, decided to raise their prices annually by what their annual loss was to cover said loss was the best way to make money.

Until they thoroughly price what's left of the whales out of their hobby, they'll never learn. And by that point it will be too late to backtrack.

DOOM AND GLOOM! THE GAME IS DEAD! WARMACHINE IS A BETTER GAME!

now that I got that out of the way, WAAAGH! from turn one (and every turn after) and HoW so long as you have 10+ models in the unit are hardly 'pointless' they just aren't as broken as other formation benefits. Yes it's expensive, and hard to 'optimize' (because EVERYTHING must be designed for minmax/tournament play) but it still has benefits that let the orks close the gap stupidly quickly, and helping them get into CC turn 1/2 instead of turn 3/4.

To be honest, as an ork player, i've been expecting to get worthless decurion like that of ig. But like ig i was hoping to get some good formations.
Seems to be a pretty pointless release. If only Ghaz could be taken without his bloated council or at lest we didn't get this awful mob rule "benefits".

The bright side is that you can justify running Ghaz council, i guess. The bad news is that cad is better, so everything you get is pointless.

Forgive me if my post came off as inflammatory, its just I cannot understand some of the decisions being made by this company from a monetary or player standpoint.

If models are not selling well its for a few reasons:

1. They look like gak.
2. They have terrible rules.
3. The models belong to an army that is not competitive.
4. Overpriced.

Therefore, would it not be in GW's best interest to make each army as balanced/competitive as possible? That way all units have appeal/their niche & you have just eliminated 50% of the reasons people aren't buying said models.

Do we know who is running GW or if there is anyone within their design team that knows how to use the internet? They are losing so much money by not interacting with the community...

Commissar Benny wrote:
Forgive me if my post came off as inflammatory, its just I cannot understand some of the decisions being made by this company from a monetary or player standpoint.

If models are not selling well its for a few reasons:

1. They look like gak.
2. They have terrible rules.
3. The models belong to an army that is not competitive.
4. Overpriced.

Therefore, would it not be in GW's best interest to make each army as balanced/competitive as possible? That way all units have appeal/their niche & you have just eliminated 50% of the reasons people aren't buying said models.

Do we know who is running GW or if there is anyone within their design team that knows how to use the internet? They are losing so much money by not interacting with the community...

I´m only a year in the hobby and one of the first things I learned is that sometimes you just need purge every trace of logic and human sense when comes to geedub and their decisions.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Forgive me if my post came off as inflammatory, its just I cannot understand some of the decisions being made by this company from a monetary or player standpoint.

If models are not selling well its for a few reasons:

1. They look like gak.
2. They have terrible rules.
3. The models belong to an army that is not competitive.
4. Overpriced.

Therefore, would it not be in GW's best interest to make each army as balanced/competitive as possible? That way all units have appeal/their niche & you have just eliminated 50% of the reasons people aren't buying said models.

Do we know who is running GW or if there is anyone within their design team that knows how to use the internet? They are losing so much money by not interacting with the community...

1. Subjective, though in a sales standpoint, you have some ground.

2. True, though if you take the game out of a competitive setting, many of the issues are mitigated, and when you remember that the bulk of the population DON'T play competitively, this is mitigated quite a bit.

3. What? "well gak! Orks aren't competitive, feth these models!" If someone is strictly playing to bring the best models from the best army, then they will get over it as soon as the next FotM army is released .Again though, tournament/minmax/competitive players are NOT the majority of the players.

4. It's not. It's about the same price as any other similar hobby. Video games, Warmachine ('cause no one JUST buys what their army needs), and many other hobbies all sit at about 200-500 starting cost, and then 40-60 a month there after. It's perceived value that's different.

Still hoping for a specific Kult of Speed formation/super formation

What worries me is the fact that this updated supplement was written without any effort to make it good. It seems rushed.
For example the waag band core formation gives useless bonuses if taken as part of the "orkurion"

Bardiel_03 wrote:
What worries me is the fact that this updated supplement was written without any effort to make it good. It seems rushed.
For example the waag band core formation gives useless bonuses if taken as part of the "orkurion"

I still fail to see how 6 WAAAGH!'s a game is useless? I mean, god forbid you manage to get into CC without taking many shooting casualties. pair that with no longer needing to roll 10+ on the charge to get HoW and it's even better. YES, it's not SM or Necron level of bonuses, but they are hardly useless.

 Brennonjw wrote:

Bardiel_03 wrote:
What worries me is the fact that this updated supplement was written without any effort to make it good. It seems rushed.
For example the waag band core formation gives useless bonuses if taken as part of the "orkurion"

I still fail to see how 6 WAAAGH!'s a game is useless? I mean, god forbid you manage to get into CC without taking many shooting casualties. pair that with no longer needing to roll 10+ on the charge to get HoW and it's even better. YES, it's not SM or Necron level of bonuses, but they are hardly useless.

My problem (same I had with the recent Daemons supplement) isn't the special rules, it's the REQUIREMENTS to unlock it. Look at half these formations, how many units do you have to take in just core and an auxillary? The Daemons supplement is the same, most require 6+ units to unlock ONE formation.

 Brennonjw wrote:

Bardiel_03 wrote:
What worries me is the fact that this updated supplement was written without any effort to make it good. It seems rushed.
For example the waag band core formation gives useless bonuses if taken as part of the "orkurion"

I still fail to see how 6 WAAAGH!'s a game is useless? I mean, god forbid you manage to get into CC without taking many shooting casualties. pair that with no longer needing to roll 10+ on the charge to get HoW and it's even better. YES, it's not SM or Necron level of bonuses, but they are hardly useless.

waagh every turn is fantastic, HoW are good (str 3 HoW), what i was tring to say is that the waagh-band gives the same bonuses of the orkurion only worse, instead of giving you something extra as the other core formations do in other armies. And you pay a lot for the detachment bonuses without any flexibility. To use them efficiently you have also to take the ghaz formation (600 points) so you have to pay 1200 (without any upgrade) to make it work reliably.

 jreilly89 wrote:
My problem (same I had with the recent Daemons supplement) isn't the special rules, it's the REQUIREMENTS to unlock it. Look at half these formations, how many units do you have to take in just core and an auxillary? The Daemons supplement is the same, most require 6+ units to unlock ONE formation.

The Eldar Warhost is the same way. Do you think that Eldar players really want to take Vypers?
The marine Gladius formation is the same. A chaplain and assault marines are just an annoying tax.
To get the perks of the formation, you have to pay the tax. If you don't want the perks, don't play the formation.

My issue with it is its basically giving us things we already had. Sure turn one charge is "possible" but we could already get a reliable turn two charge even on foot. The hammer of wrath you will not normally get more than 10 S3 hits at most which isn't likely to do much of anything. The only big upside is it can make ghazzy actually worthy of the LoW title. As said though that is very expensive. The only reason to run this that I can see is to bring ghazzy and company to hit stuff.

 Brennonjw wrote:

Bardiel_03 wrote:
What worries me is the fact that this updated supplement was written without any effort to make it good. It seems rushed.
For example the waag band core formation gives useless bonuses if taken as part of the "orkurion"

I still fail to see how 6 WAAAGH!'s a game is useless? I mean, god forbid you manage to get into CC without taking many shooting casualties. pair that with no longer needing to roll 10+ on the charge to get HoW and it's even better. YES, it's not SM or Necron level of bonuses, but they are hardly useless.

My problem with this is the issue I've had with them updating books this way starting with the Tau. Putting aside that these formations are at best ok compared to the top tier armies, this doesn't fix any of the problems many ork units have. To call this even a bandaid is an understatement.