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Where does it say he is 12m tall? Not questioning you, just curious where I can read info like that about Daemon Angron.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where does it say he is 12m tall? Not questioning you, just curious where I can read info like that about Daemon Angron.

Probably his lexicanum page. The novel is which he becomes a Daemon has him swallow a space marine whole and knock a Freadnought across the map, and at time of writing the Bloodthirster and DP models were smaller than a Dreadnought so the most obvious size reference is FW's huge BT which could be toughed as 12m. But just an educated guess that he's huge given his power and allegiance.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

For my comments

- his sword is actually called The Black Blade of Angron from his old Apoc rules
- He doesn't need both preferred enemy and hatred, drop the PE, it's pretty redundant seeing as you don't roll to hit with your shooting attack and already have hatred for CC
- Replace Mark of Khorne with Daemon of Khorne, then add Rage if you want
-Buff to Wounds 8
- Master of Daemonhood doesn't really fit as a rule, and Revenge against the Materium is clumsily elegant name for Angron. Chosen Son of Khorne also doesn't fit, I'd say just just drop all 3 and add this;

(Unending Fury [WIP title, feel free to change)

For each unsaved wound Angron suffers, increases his Attacks by 1 for the duration of the game. He retains this bonus even if the wound is regained through It Will Not Die! or by another method. Angron is a Lord of War Choice in a Chaos Space Marine, Chaos Daemon or Khorne Daemonkin detachment. All friendly models from these factions with the Mark of Khorne or Daemon of Khorne Special rules gain the Fearless, Hatred and Fleet special rules.

Wrath of Khorne

Any psyker (friendly or enemy) that expends a warp charge within 12" of Angron must pass a Leadership test on 3D6 or suffer a Perils of the Warp result. Angron cannot be targetted by any Blessing, Malediction or Conjuration powers whatsoever.


-Lord of the Red Sands should work similar to his rule in HH that affects challenges. Miight I suggest the following?

Lord of the Red Sands

Angron may issue and fight as many challenges as he currently has attacks, and may freely distribute his attacks among these challenges as the player chooses. He must allocate at least one attack per challenge. Angron may freely choose to decline challenges from your opponent's models, even when he is the only model in his unit, and does not suffer any penalties for declining a challenge. However, he must always accept challenges from your opponent's Warlord, Gargantuan Creatures or Super-Heavy Walkers. At the end of the game, Angron's owning player gains +1VP for each model he successfully kills in a challenge.

I like everything here, but he hardly needs to be W8

Khorne's 12m tall Geatest Champion TM, having the same resilience as a Tyranid birthing bag? W8 seems reasonable to me. Plus 8 is the sacred number of Khorne whereas 6 is that of his rival, Slaanesh

That's fair actually,but only because of the sacred number argument

Sorry for the absence, typing on a tablet is a little clumsy.
Hopefully somebody can make a battle report or something using these updated rules as a test:


Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters, the Red Angel, Chosen Son of Khorne and Servant to the Skull Throne.

WS 10
BS 6
S 10
T 7
W 8
A 8
I 9
Ld 10
Sv 2+

Unit Composition
- 1 (Unique)
Unit Type
- Flying Monstrous Creature
Wargear
- Armour of the Red Gladiator: 2+ Save, 4++ Invuln.
- Black Blade of Angron: Str D, AP 1, Concussive - Fleshbane - Daemon Weapon
- Daemonfire Breath - Str 6, AP 2, Flamer Template,
Special Rules
-Adamantium Will
-It Will Not Die
-Eternal Warrior
-Preferred Enemy
-Rage
-Daemon of Khorne
-Daemon
-Innate Rage: Daemon Angron can be taken in any Chaos Space Marine army as a Lord of War choice. Angron can be taken in any detachment of Khorne Daemonkin as a Lord of War choice. Angron confers Preferred Enemy and Rampage to all friendly models within 12" of him and their Leadership is not subject to any negative modifiers.
-Chosen Son of Khorne: Daemon Angron counts as being equipped with assault and defensive grenades. During the psychic phase, any enemy psykers within 12" of Angron that are manifesting Psychic powers automatically suffers Perils of the Warp. Any friendly Psykers within 12" of Angron are not subject to Perils of the Warp when using powers from the Khorne discipline or the Malefic Daemonology discipline.
-Lord of the Red Sands:
Angron may issue and fight as many challenges as he currently has attacks, and may freely distribute his attacks among these challenges as the player chooses. He must allocate at least one attack per challenge. Angron may freely choose to decline challenges from your opponent's models, even when he is the only model in his unit, and does not suffer any penalties for declining a challenge. However, he must always accept challenges from your opponent's Warlord, Gargantuan Creatures or Super-Heavy Walkers. At the end of the game, Angron's owning player gains +1VP for each model he successfully kills in a challenge.
-Gladiator of Chaos: For every two wounds Angron loses, he gains one extra Attack. Any wounds regained through IWND are not counted as reversing the effects.

-Master of Daemonhood: Angron cannot roll on the Chaos Boon table. (Prevents inadvertent Spawnhood)


You really want Angron accidentaly becoming spawn? On your head be it!
Pts: 650
Lord of War.

Angron may be taken as a Lord of War choice in either a Chaos Space Marine army, a Chaos Daemons Army, a Khorne Daemonkin army or a Horus Heresy World Eaters army of traitor alignment.

I can test him tomorrow evening with a friend of mind. What points do you suggest we go to?

Try Angron against a top tier 800 point list,I have this nagging feeling I've undercosted him.

Or in general, what is your local meta like??

Generally we bring top tier lists, so I have the choice of several friends who are free tomorrow. I could play against:
Imperial armour leman russ + vendetta spam
OR
Orks in trukks horde army
OR
Kustom stompa + battlewagon
OR
Imperial knight spam
Which would test angron the most?

With 8 WS10 D attacks at I9, he is easily going to kill two or three Knights per round of combat in melee, so he will destroy the Knight list. The only way they can win is to get 3+ Knights in combat with him at the same time, hope one survives, and hope for a 6. But he can prevent that with his superior mobility and the fact that they can't charge him while he's swooping.

I could see hidden PK nobs grinding him down over time. Try a green tide. Except oh wait he can challenge all of those nobz in the same round of combat. Nope. Orks are fethed.

The Stompa is going to die very very badly before it gets to strike.

The vendettas can't be charged by him but they won't do very much damage either. The Russes are doomed.

Couple things. The black blade was broken by the grey Knights as well as no grey knight suffered perils of the warp when they casted their psychics at angron. It also took just about 50-70 terminator grey Knights to kill him ( after the 100 ish started and got past his 12 cruor preatoria. Rivals a Warhound class walker in size.
You should also consider the berserker mentality that he will kill any Friendly's in the way of him getting to grips with the enemy.
Edit: The very presence of such a warp being diminishes other lesser beings as they draw upon their life force to sustain themselves in the material world.
Lore Source- "The Emperor's Gift" sometime after imperial date m41.444

I'd say instead of perils of the warp. Add a -1 to all psychic rolls by Units within 12-24inches. Exception: Grey Knights using sanctic

We're always complaining that current 40k is a bloated mess with special rules on top of more special rules, so when we get down to making rules we should try to keep things simple.

The most important advice is: if you can represent it via statline or equipment, avoid special rules. When it comes down to equipment, keep it simple too: weapon profile, whatever strenght and whatever AP, then not too many special rules.

As an example, just look at the Bloodthirster's rules from 2nd edition:



Needless to say that's a rape train with no brakes. But outside of a few extra-flavourful things (the lash special attack) it's actually quite simple. He's a close combat monster mostly because of his stats, rather than his special rules.

Looking at what you've drafted for Angron, I see too many damn special rules. It's basically a walking special rule fest. Why not keeping things simpler?


No idea about points cost for something like that lol.

Knight spam, can he get to the knights before the knights get to bim. I wonder...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bear in mind that other primarchs also have nearly two pages of rules each, and one of Guilliman's rules are literally half a page long.

Since he has lost the Primarch Special Rule (Which is a collation of other rules) , he needs the other rules to bring him to that standard and above, since he has achieved Daemonhood.

Also bear in mind, a Bloodthirster from 2nd is not even comparable to a Lord of War on a Primarch standard five editions later.

Battle report in!
Angron alone faced an imperial guard list that a friend of mine through together after he got no where searching for a unit who could take care of such a monster.
800pts
Comand tank punisher.
Command squad with master of the fleet.
4xVendetta.
(I know it isn't a very threatoning list)
Pre-game:
He recieved +1 to his reserves as a warlord trait, I recieved infiltrate.
He placed his punisher on one side of his deployement and his command squad on the other, I placed Angron within 12" of his command squad (in cover).
Turn1:
His command squad ran away and his punisher did not harm Angron, Angron charged and slaughtered the command squad.
Turn 2:
All his Vendettas came on and reduced Angron to 4 wounds but once again the punisher did nothing, I in return destroyed his punisher (as well as regaining 3 wounds)
Turn 3:
His Vendettas fired again and reduced Angron to 4 wounds, I assaulted a Vendetta that had to hover in order to shoot me which resulted in a dead Vendetta (and a wound regained by Angron)
Turn 4:
He decided that Vendettas that hover are too easy a target so two Vendettas left thw board, I then decided to go flying and vector struck his Vendetta reducing the Vendetta to 2 hull points (IWND again blessed me with another wound to make it 6)
Turn 5:
2 was rolled and game ended with a 6-0 victory for Angron.

I also took the liberty of having Angron challenge An'ggrath who is 238 more points. The challenge went straight into close combat assuming that they charged each other at the same time.
Turn 1:
An'ggrath takes 8 StrD hits, of which 3 were 6's.
An'ggrath dies before he can even attack.

My opinion is that 9+d6 StrD attacks on the charge is a little over powered, I would reduce it to Str10. If it reduced to Str10 I think the points should lower as well to about 500pts.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Battle report in!
Angron alone faced an imperial guard list that a friend of mine through together after he got no where searching for a unit who could take care of such a monster.
800pts
Comand tank punisher.
Command squad with master of the fleet.
4xVendetta.
(I know it isn't a very threatoning list)
Pre-game:
He recieved +1 to his reserves as a warlord trait, I recieved infiltrate.
He placed his punisher on one side of his deployement and his command squad on the other, I placed Angron within 12" of his command squad (in cover).
Turn1:
His command squad ran away and his punisher did not harm Angron, Angron charged and slaughtered the command squad.
Turn 2:
All his Vendettas came on and reduced Angron to 4 wounds but once again the punisher did nothing, I in return destroyed his punisher (as well as regaining 3 wounds)
Turn 3:
His Vendettas fired again and reduced Angron to 4 wounds, I assaulted a Vendetta that had to hover in order to shoot me which resulted in a dead Vendetta (and a wound regained by Angron)
Turn 4:
He decided that Vendettas that hover are too easy a target so two Vendettas left thw board, I then decided to go flying and vector struck his Vendetta reducing the Vendetta to 2 hull points (IWND again blessed me with another wound to make it 6)
Turn 5:
2 was rolled and game ended with a 6-0 victory for Angron.

I also took the liberty of having Angron challenge An'ggrath who is 238 more points. The challenge went straight into close combat assuming that they charged each other at the same time.
Turn 1:
An'ggrath takes 8 StrD hits, of which 3 were 6's.
An'ggrath dies before he can even attack.

My opinion is that 9+d6 StrD attacks on the charge is a little over powered, I would reduce it to Str10. If it reduced to Str10 I think the points should lower as well to about 500pts.

I agree, Str D is a little too much (maybe allow Str D as a Smash attach?), Str 10 would be better. However, against the IG, it sounds about right for what he was fighting. The problem of these super-units like Daemon Primarchs is that they should easily be able to take out their equivilent in enemy points with ease, going by the fluff, due to the way points work. I mean, 12 Bloodthirsters and Angron required a whole brotherhood of GK to stop.Which at minimum rounds to around 2000pts (literal barebones, 10 terminator squads of 5 models, a brotherhood champion, Grand Master and Brother Captain). When you increase that to a fluff level with 10 man squads, full weapon loadouts, transports and upgrades, Paladin and Purifer support, supporting IG and SM units, and all the other stuff that in the fluff was needed to even challenge Angron, you're talking closer to 5000pts, I'd guesstimate. 12 Thirsters, assuming average of 250pts for a FMC, equates to 3000pts, and 500+ for angron is around 3500. And 12 Thirsters and Angron would easily chew throughthat whole 5000pt force.

We have to give fluff a rest when designing rules as otherwise one of my assault marines could kill like hundreds of Orks before dying.

 Ashiraya wrote:
We have to give fluff a rest when designing rules as otherwise one of my assault marines could kill like hundreds of Orks before dying.

That's my point, for super-units like Angron, you can't. The units have to be suitably powerful as to showcase their abilities accurately, yet be cheap enough that their equivilent in points doesn't make them useless. I mean, Angron at 650pts is equal to 3 Grey Knight Terminator Squads, but even being geared up to tackle Angron and Daemons, Angron should be blitzing those Termies without effort. So in order to accurately reflect his abilities, he needs to be vastly more powerful than his points equates to.

In other words, make him OP?

Also, why do we have to? Why MUST Angron be accurate when just about nobody else is?

Assuming I understood you correctly? I am not sure if you are defending it or posing it as the problem.

What are you talking about? We just agreed to change StrD to Str10, when did we say we were going to buff him?

 Deadshot wrote:
he needs to be vastly more powerful than his points equates to.

How is this not 'make him OP'?

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING in this game should be more powerful than their points' worth.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
he needs to be vastly more powerful than his points equates to.

How is this not 'make him OP'?

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING in this game should be more powerful than their points' worth.

OP means something vastly different to me and you. OP, to me, is 10 across the statline, 2+/2++/2+FNP, rerolls all hits and wounds and failed saves, ID on all attacks, EW, cost 105pts.

The nature of points means that things are vastly weaker than they should be. Angron should be able roll standard size armies single handed, but making him 1500pts would make him so laughably worthless its not even worth making rules. All I'm saying is that he, like other God-like beings, are a collection that are incredibly difficult to make rules for. I still remember a time when making Primarch rules was frowned upon because they were seen as so vastly powerful they could rolfstomp whole armies alone.
Angron in that test took out a handful of tanks and vendettas without a scratch. That is accurate and should be what happens. When he went up against Angrath, he curbstomped him. So, he's too powerful, but making any weaker would make him too weak.

Angron should be able roll standard size armies single handed, but making him 1500pts would make him so laughably worthless its not even worth making rules.

The 1475 point Reaver Titan says hi?

As does his big brother the 2750 point Warlord.

All I'm saying is that he, like other God-like beings, are a collection that are incredibly difficult to make rules for. I still remember a time when making Primarch rules was frowned upon because they were seen as so vastly powerful they could rolfstomp whole armies alone.

So we got rules in which they stomp entire units alone instead, and it works perfectly.

Angron in that test took out a handful of tanks and vendettas without a scratch. That is accurate and should be what happens.

Then you had better hold everyone to the same standard, because Angron is sure as hell not going to be first in line when it comes to needing fluff-rules adjustment. Maybe hundredth in line, if that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
OP means something vastly different to me and you. OP, to me, is 10 across the statline, 2+/2++/2+FNP, rerolls all hits and wounds and failed saves, ID on all attacks, EW, cost 105pts.

OP is also T4 W1 3+ LD8 jetbike with a S6 36" gun for 27 pts.

Just because it does not instantly break the game the moment it hits the table does not mean it isn't OP.

Design an Angron that works, not an Angron nobody would ever play against.