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 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Spineyguy wrote:
It's ironic that these chapters have generally quite fearful appearances (Sallies have very dark skin, so as to be almost black, and eye colours that range from amber to crimson, while Ravens have papery white skin and jet-black hair, eyes and teeth), so humans who see them for the first time are typically quite intimidated.

All SM are giants with many scars and wounds which would incapacitate mortals many times over. They carry weapons bigger and heavier than any mortal could lift and their armour hums constantly. They often drop into battle in giant metal boxes. If a human is lucky they may hear about 5 SM helping out an IG detachment nearby once in their entire life. I really dont think skin or eye colour is a big issue.

By far the worst Chapter for this (in my experience) are the Black Templars, who are responsible for a huge amount of 'BLAM! Heresy.' and not much civilian aid.

This is definitely the truth, though a couple of the loyalist chapters in the Badab war proved themselves not to care much at all about civilians either.

Why would they? Civilians are replaceable, Astartes and ancient equipment are not.

The Salamanders would be inclined to think the contrary.

So would Sanguinius, and yet the Second Founding Chapters don't really seem to care too much about them (*cough* flesh tearers *cough cough*)

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Spineyguy wrote:
It's ironic that these chapters have generally quite fearful appearances (Sallies have very dark skin, so as to be almost black, and eye colours that range from amber to crimson, while Ravens have papery white skin and jet-black hair, eyes and teeth), so humans who see them for the first time are typically quite intimidated.

All SM are giants with many scars and wounds which would incapacitate mortals many times over. They carry weapons bigger and heavier than any mortal could lift and their armour hums constantly. They often drop into battle in giant metal boxes. If a human is lucky they may hear about 5 SM helping out an IG detachment nearby once in their entire life. I really dont think skin or eye colour is a big issue.

By far the worst Chapter for this (in my experience) are the Black Templars, who are responsible for a huge amount of 'BLAM! Heresy.' and not much civilian aid.

This is definitely the truth, though a couple of the loyalist chapters in the Badab war proved themselves not to care much at all about civilians either.

Why would they? Civilians are replaceable, Astartes and ancient equipment are not.

The Salamanders would be inclined to think the contrary.

So would Sanguinius, and yet the Second Founding Chapters don't really seem to care too much about them (*cough* flesh tearers *cough cough*)

Gabriel Seth is trying to change that in regard to the Flesh Tearers. He knows they are going to die out, so he wants to ensure they are remembered as the saviors of mankind the way his brethren in the Blood Angels are.

Most Notable Tier: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Iron Hands

Notable: White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, 2nd founding chapters

Least Notable: Chapters with uncertain origin

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Spineyguy wrote:
It's ironic that these chapters have generally quite fearful appearances (Sallies have very dark skin, so as to be almost black, and eye colours that range from amber to crimson, while Ravens have papery white skin and jet-black hair, eyes and teeth), so humans who see them for the first time are typically quite intimidated.

All SM are giants with many scars and wounds which would incapacitate mortals many times over. They carry weapons bigger and heavier than any mortal could lift and their armour hums constantly. They often drop into battle in giant metal boxes. If a human is lucky they may hear about 5 SM helping out an IG detachment nearby once in their entire life. I really dont think skin or eye colour is a big issue.

By far the worst Chapter for this (in my experience) are the Black Templars, who are responsible for a huge amount of 'BLAM! Heresy.' and not much civilian aid.

This is definitely the truth, though a couple of the loyalist chapters in the Badab war proved themselves not to care much at all about civilians either.

Why would they? Civilians are replaceable, Astartes and ancient equipment are not.

The Salamanders would be inclined to think the contrary.

So would Sanguinius, and yet the Second Founding Chapters don't really seem to care too much about them (*cough* flesh tearers *cough cough*)

Gabriel Seth is trying to change that in regard to the Flesh Tearers. He knows they are going to die out, so he wants to ensure they are remembered as the saviors of mankind the way his brethren in the Blood Angels are.

The important bit is that he's changing centuries of Chapter culture, if not millenia of it.

 Harriticus wrote:
Most Notable Tier: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Iron Hands

Notable: White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, 2nd founding chapters

Least Notable: Chapters with uncertain origin

Erm... it's most noble. Not notable.

Raven Guard, specifically Shrike's company.

Salamanders are the obvious answer. It's what they're known for. Even Loken, the 'good guy' of early Horus heresy novels, is quite happy to mow down civilians as though they don't matter. That's the way Space Marines think, except for Salamanders.

Karkasy wrote:
Salamanders are the obvious answer. It's what they're known for. Even Loken, the 'good guy' of early Horus heresy novels, is quite happy to mow down civilians as though they don't matter. That's the way Space Marines think, except for Salamanders.

I've had a change of heart about this whole topic. I had a think and gradually came to the conclusion and have decided that saving civilians doesn't make anyone noble. In fact, it can be worse and even immoral to do so. The Space Wolves at Armegeddon springs to mind. Yes, from a human perspective you all think that humans are more important than anyone else, and shake hands with the guys who save the little guy, but frankly, the little guy isn't important, the bigger picture is. Therefore, I chnage my answer to this; "Whichever chapter puts aside all personal feelings, be it to save humans, slay Orks, preserve the Emperor's honour, to better serve the Imperium of Man, is the most noble. If this means they must sacrifice a world to save a hundred, then that is the noble path."

Vulcan's Salamamders are the most noble Chapter by leaps and bounds. There really is no debate.

 SickSix wrote:
Vulcan's Salamamders are the most noble Chapter by leaps and bounds. There really is no debate.

Re-read what I just wrote. Saving the little guy isn't noble. They'll be dead in 5 minutes anyway, or 40 years at most, you're just wasting time and bullets. Saving the wider Imperium is more important. What's truely noble is being able to shoulder that burden and responsibility despite what you may personally think and want.

In light of this new point of view, I nominate the Angry Marines.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
In light of this new point of view, I nominate the Angry Marines.

Of course, the hidden heroes of the Imperium!

 Deadshot wrote:

Re-read what I just wrote. Saving the little guy isn't noble. They'll be dead in 5 minutes anyway, or 40 years at most, you're just wasting time and bullets. Saving the wider Imperium is more important. What's truely noble is being able to shoulder that burden and responsibility despite what you may personally think and want.

In that case it has to be Alpha Legion as they went against their own beliefs to save the entire universe. They are the only ones fighting on the opposite side of where they really want to be because it is the right thing to do, quite noble

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Re-read what I just wrote. Saving the little guy isn't noble. They'll be dead in 5 minutes anyway, or 40 years at most, you're just wasting time and bullets. Saving the wider Imperium is more important. What's truely noble is being able to shoulder that burden and responsibility despite what you may personally think and want.

In that case it has to be Alpha Legion as they went against their own beliefs to save the entire universe. They are the only ones fighting on the opposite side of where they really want to be because it is the right thing to do, quite noble

Exactly. Assuming that's still their goal.

 Flanker wrote:
Clearly the Marines Malevolent.

BAH! The are clearly not as noble as the Cracharodons Astra.

 Deadshot wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Vulcan's Salamamders are the most noble Chapter by leaps and bounds. There really is no debate.

Re-read what I just wrote. Saving the little guy isn't noble. They'll be dead in 5 minutes anyway, or 40 years at most, you're just wasting time and bullets. Saving the wider Imperium is more important. What's truely noble is being able to shoulder that burden and responsibility despite what you may personally think and want.

noble
1 possessing, characterized by, or arising from superiority of mind or character or of ideals or morals

It's not just about 'saving the little guy'. What you are trying to describe isn't 'noble' by any definition I can find. You are simply describing practicality.

The Salamanders are about honor and will stand by their oaths in the face of opposition from their allies. (see Badab War: Executioners)

So, superiority of mind, character, ideals or morals?

Well, a practical mind is superior to the naive one that "saving the little guy takes."
It takes a hell of a lot of character to be able to condemn between a dozen and billion innocents to death for the greater good.
Ideals are just that, ideal, they have no place in the 41st Millenium, holding to ideals in such a life is stupid and wasting time (something that points to the opposite of a strong mind or character).
Morals? A term used loosely to describe people doing things you don't like and trying convince others there is something universally, fundamentally abhorrant about it. Answer me this; is it more "morally good" to save 1 innocent, or let him die? What if by saving this one person, you inadvertantly subject others to eternity of soul-torture in the stomach of a warp god, burn a dozen planets and their billions to ashes, and set in motion the downfall of your whole system, and by extension subjecting each and every man to an eternity of servitude at the hands of laughing deities?



Standing by your oaths and honour when its a simple course of action that would do more harm than good to follow honour is a bad thing. Let's imagine you took owed a life debt to another chapter, and they suddenly went rogue like the Astral Claws, and at the end of it all, you allowed them to walk free and said "the debt is paid." Now, when those renegades start destroying your worlds, kill your brothers and people and become a massive threat, would you regret keeping your oath? Yes. Better kill them and let others think less of you than risk them repeat offending.

I think the most noble would be the Ultramarines. Partly due to them being the best at absolutely everything, best gene-seed, best tactics in battle, best chapter master and so on. I view nobility as a status and the UM are the most iconic across the 40kverse.

How about none of them are noble at all?

They consider all humans beneath contempt and that they are superior to the general run of human society not only in terms of their physical form but in all other regards and that the well being of any group of normal humans is beneath their interests unless their survival would further the marines own ends?

That all the fluff you have seen suggesting that things are otherwise and that some of the chapters "care" are infact just propaganda to make the general populous think better of these superhuman monsters?

 SickSix wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Vulcan's Salamamders are the most noble Chapter by leaps and bounds. There really is no debate.

Re-read what I just wrote. Saving the little guy isn't noble. They'll be dead in 5 minutes anyway, or 40 years at most, you're just wasting time and bullets. Saving the wider Imperium is more important. What's truely noble is being able to shoulder that burden and responsibility despite what you may personally think and want.

noble
1 possessing, characterized by, or arising from superiority of mind or character or of ideals or morals

It's not just about 'saving the little guy'. What you are trying to describe isn't 'noble' by any definition I can find.

Totally agree. There's nothing noble about putting the state above people. Or what is the point of it?

Karkasy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Vulcan's Salamamders are the most noble Chapter by leaps and bounds. There really is no debate.

Re-read what I just wrote. Saving the little guy isn't noble. They'll be dead in 5 minutes anyway, or 40 years at most, you're just wasting time and bullets. Saving the wider Imperium is more important. What's truely noble is being able to shoulder that burden and responsibility despite what you may personally think and want.

noble
1 possessing, characterized by, or arising from superiority of mind or character or of ideals or morals

It's not just about 'saving the little guy'. What you are trying to describe isn't 'noble' by any definition I can find.

Totally agree. There's nothing noble about putting the state above people. Or what is the point of it?

The state is the people. Without the state, everyone dies because all the other states want you dead.

Iirc wasn't vulkan the only primarch who actually greaved and lamented for the loss of his own children/battle brothers? Or the scene the forge world modle depicts of him holding one of his sons and screaming to the sky with his hammer

TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:Raven Guard, specifically Shrike's company.

So the whole of the Chapter then? Since he is the Chapter Master now.

Salamanders hands down, with the Raven Guard coming right after

 curran12 wrote:

 monkeypuzzle wrote:
Space wolves who are brutal and care nothing for civilians? Aren't they the ones who nearly went to war with the inquisition after the first battle for Armageddon when the inquisition decided to kill all guardsmen and civilians who were on the planet?

Yep, and in doing so, they ensured many times more than those on Armageddon died. Cause they are so humanitarian and noble.

Space Wolves are noble only when it serves their image. Their ego comes first, not their care for others.


As for the main question of this thread, the Salamanders are the most 'human' of the Space Marines, maintaining their relations with families, hometowns and homeworld to a degree far, far more than any other Chapter. Now does that equal nobility? That's up to you to decide.

While that did result in many planets experiencing exterminatus, it was mainly the inquisitions overreach and paranoia that drove it. they stood up to the inquisition because they felt it was the right thing to do. Not for some overarching noble purpose, they just simply felt those specific civilians and guardsmen didn't deserve that. To imply they had other motivations is to overstate the complexity in which the wolves see their role in the galaxy. They are warriors, nothing more and nothing less. The wolves were not motivated by "Lets pretend to be noble so people will like us!" because I don't think that wolves really care what anyone else thought of them. They are space vikings, not prom queens.

You are dismissing them as vain and superficial, and while I would agree with you in terms of battle glory or other things they hold highly, popular opinion is not one of the things that motivates them. They have a sense of honor based on the strength of the old warrior traditions, and they respected the guardsmen who stood with them against the foes on Armageddon and they thought they deserved better than to be mercilessly massacred by their own side in what was essentially a cowardly act of deception. The wolves saw this as a betrayal, and even more heinous a betrayal of a group of individuals that had earned their respect in the forge of battle. no they are not champions of the weak and protectors of the innocent like the Salamanders are, but they certainly are not motivated by hero worship from people they would usually not even notice exist.

Backspacehacker wrote:Iirc wasn't vulkan the only primarch who actually greaved and lamented for the loss of his own children/battle brothers? Or the scene the forge world modle depicts of him holding one of his sons and screaming to the sky with his hammer

In Fear to Tread, Sanguinius basically says "oh heeell naw!" when Horus suggests letting the mortals die to save Legion lives. Basically, he trades Legion lives for mortal lives. Also, when nearly all of the mortal members of his fleet die, he gets royally pissed off.

Canonically it's the Blood Angels

Codex Blood Angels 7e wrote:The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels’ darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it a humility and understanding of their own failings which make them truly the most noble of the Space Marines.

But in my heart of hearts I'd have to put the case forward for the Ultramarines. They do the most for the small people of the Imperium.

In terms of Chapters - yeah, Salamanders hands down. But I don't think it's a subject that can be generalised to Chapter level. For example, in Nick Kyme's Salamanders trilogy, we find Zek Tsu'gan, Sergeant and then Firedrake, who holds 'mortals' in contempt - much to the dismay of his fellow (and rival) Sergeant Hazon Dak'ir. It's highly personalised. Similarly, the Carcharadons Astra's (presumed) Chapter Master, Tyberos the Red Wake showed great humiltity in kneeling before an Inquisitor when they entered the war on Badab despite his Chapter being regarded as brutal an unnecessarily violent (i.e Blowing up a planet with civilians and 600 marines of the Star Phantoms still there).

@Deadshot - As to whether Noble=Practicality. No they aren't the same thing. Being noble is about choosing the course of action that does right by the promises you have made and the situation that is directly in front of you. Practicality is simply taking the course of action that yields maximum result, regardless of whether it is immediately right. Picture a real situation: At the end of the First World War, the German nation was utterly spent and desperately needed rebuilt. The noble course would be for all Germans to shoulder their burdens, get on with the task in hand and rebuild their nation for the good of everyone. However that is a path that was neither quick, nor easy. The practical option was to invade a series of hitherto neutral nations, label a race or peoples as a scapegoat, enslave them and use the resulting free labour to enrich the lives of the other 'free' Germans. Very Practical, not so Noble.

Of course, it does take a lot of strength to consign a billion souls to Exterminatus in order to save 10 Billion more but I wouldn't say it's noble. It's simple mathematics. It does not take into account the character of each of the one billion. It cares not whether the 10 billion others appreciate the sacrifice and it certainly doesn't care what that 10 billion go on to do with their lives. Nobility in this situation would be to find a way to save all 11 Billion, even if it costs you your own life. Not practical, but certainly Noble.

Ask yourself the question, 'What if by saving 10 billion people, by means of killing 1 billion people, you consign 100 billion to death because the 10 billion were to ignorant to appreciate the 1 Billions sacrifice and strengthen their own defences/change their mindset?' - It's a question that could go round and round ad infinitum because nobody can foresee the future or know all the consequences of their actions.


In any case, as you said, the state is the people. So if you are not fighting for the people who make up the State, then all you are fighting for is a hollow organisation that rules over nothing. You are then fighting for nothing but an idea with no adherants. But morals require no organisation, no words and no written law. All morals require is that you and your friends do your best by the people you know and hope they, and their friends, will do their best by you - and that is what makes a State. Just a group of people trying their best for each other.

After reading the new novel where the word bearers are in the core of a planet and the ultras refuse to mow down humans or shoot over them, I say them.

The cost of one innocent life is not worth the death of a thousand tyrants.

Lamenters are actually over the top IMHO.

I'm gonna go with Salamanders.

(But if Lamenters aren't over the top, then they're obviously the noblest)