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 Chaos Spawn wrote:
There's a good reason I said he would be a pain. Firstly, his list. This tournament was 600points, bound. I found it suspicious that he fielded an Aegis Defence Line, two Predators, a terminator squad, a captain, a tactical squad and a scout squad. Sound over points to anyone? I asked him, and he gave some rubbish about rules errata, so I called the TO, who said we should just get on with the game and have fun instead of arguing about something as "trivial" as points. Having seen this guy play three other people, I also knew he questions EVERY rule he doesn't know. So I played as usual, and within my first turn , had to show him the CSM codex a grand total of 11 times. When I proceeded to ask if I could check the stats on his scouts, which he claimed were BS4, he pulled a foul face and said no. Only when I threatened to call another TO did he let me see, at which point he said: BS3/BS4 who cares? Now you see why I call him a pain?

Scouts are BS4 since the 7th Edition Codex: Space Marines. Which came out last year.

And as for the list:

Captain - 90pts
Terminator Squad - 175pts
Scout Squad - 55pts
Tactical Squad - 70pts
Predator - 75pts
Predator #2 - 75pts
Aegis Defense Line - 50pts

Total: 590pts Battleforged Combined Arms Detachment (1HQ, 2 Troop, 1Elite, 2HS, 1 Fortification).

Legal, not even close to "cheesy", but not very smart. I'd imagine he's a pretty new guy without much experience and had no idea what other Codexes look like, therefore asked for the rules as much as he did.

nekooni wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
There's a good reason I said he would be a pain. Firstly, his list. This tournament was 600points, bound. I found it suspicious that he fielded an Aegis Defence Line, two Predators, a terminator squad, a captain, a tactical squad and a scout squad. Sound over points to anyone? I asked him, and he gave some rubbish about rules errata, so I called the TO, who said we should just get on with the game and have fun instead of arguing about something as "trivial" as points. Having seen this guy play three other people, I also knew he questions EVERY rule he doesn't know. So I played as usual, and within my first turn , had to show him the CSM codex a grand total of 11 times. When I proceeded to ask if I could check the stats on his scouts, which he claimed were BS4, he pulled a foul face and said no. Only when I threatened to call another TO did he let me see, at which point he said: BS3/BS4 who cares? Now you see why I call him a pain?

Scouts are BS4 since the 7th Edition Codex: Space Marines. Which came out last year.

And as for the list:

Captain - 90pts
Terminator Squad - 175pts
Scout Squad - 55pts
Tactical Squad - 70pts
Predator - 75pts
Predator #2 - 75pts
Aegis Defense Line - 50pts

Total: 590pts Battleforged Combined Arms Detachment (1HQ, 2 Troop, 1Elite, 2HS, 1 Fortification).

Legal, not even close to "cheesy", but not very smart. I'd imagine he's a pretty new guy without much experience and had no idea what other Codexes look like, therefore asked for the rules as much as he did.

He was playing Blood Angels, not Space Marines. Here's his list in-depth.
Captain in Artificer Armour with a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol.
An Aegis Defence Line with a Comms Relay.
A tactical squad with ten men and two Plasma Cannons, with a Veteran Sergeant with Plasma Pistol.
A scout squad with a Missile Launcher, 4 snipers and 5 Cammo Cloaks.
Eight terminators, with a banner, the captain with a Power Sword, two with Chainfists and one with an Assault Cannon.
Two Predators with three Lascannons each.

You think this is in points?
Also, by checking EVERY rule, I mean EVERY rule. My Obliterator has a 5+ Invulnerable save. Let me see.
My Chaos Lord is Fearless. Let me see.
My Chaos Cultists have a Champion. Let me see.
My Defiler has a Battle Cannon. Let me see.
Etc.
And then the audacity to say no to me checking a rule? Inexperienced you say? After he brags about having played and won in SIX other tournaments?
I don't see what you have against me, but I am reporting what happened in a clear way so that I can get a judgement on whether I was cheated. If all you want to do is question my story, you do not belong on the thread. YMDC is designed to answer rules debates given by the OP, not to call him a judgemental liar.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
There's a good reason I said he would be a pain. Firstly, his list. This tournament was 600points, bound. I found it suspicious that he fielded an Aegis Defence Line, two Predators, a terminator squad, a captain, a tactical squad and a scout squad. Sound over points to anyone? I asked him, and he gave some rubbish about rules errata, so I called the TO, who said we should just get on with the game and have fun instead of arguing about something as "trivial" as points. Having seen this guy play three other people, I also knew he questions EVERY rule he doesn't know. So I played as usual, and within my first turn , had to show him the CSM codex a grand total of 11 times. When I proceeded to ask if I could check the stats on his scouts, which he claimed were BS4, he pulled a foul face and said no. Only when I threatened to call another TO did he let me see, at which point he said: BS3/BS4 who cares? Now you see why I call him a pain?

Scouts are BS4 since the 7th Edition Codex: Space Marines. Which came out last year.

And as for the list:

Captain - 90pts
Terminator Squad - 175pts
Scout Squad - 55pts
Tactical Squad - 70pts
Predator - 75pts
Predator #2 - 75pts
Aegis Defense Line - 50pts

Total: 590pts Battleforged Combined Arms Detachment (1HQ, 2 Troop, 1Elite, 2HS, 1 Fortification).

Legal, not even close to "cheesy", but not very smart. I'd imagine he's a pretty new guy without much experience and had no idea what other Codexes look like, therefore asked for the rules as much as he did.

He was playing Blood Angels, not Space Marines. Here's his list in-depth.
Captain in Artificer Armour with a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol.
An Aegis Defence Line with a Comms Relay.
A tactical squad with ten men and two Plasma Cannons, with a Veteran Sergeant with Plasma Pistol.
A scout squad with a Missile Launcher, 4 snipers and 5 Cammo Cloaks.
Eight terminators, with a banner, the captain with a Power Sword, two with Chainfists and one with an Assault Cannon.
Two Predators with three Lascannons each.

You think this is in points?
Also, by checking EVERY rule, I mean EVERY rule. My Obliterator has a 5+ Invulnerable save. Let me see.
My Chaos Lord is Fearless. Let me see.
My Chaos Cultists have a Champion. Let me see.
My Defiler has a Battle Cannon. Let me see.
Etc.
And then the audacity to say no to me checking a rule? Inexperienced you say? After he brags about having played and won in SIX other tournaments?
I don't see what you have against me, but I am reporting what happened in a clear way so that I can get a judgement on whether I was cheated. If all you want to do is question my story, you do not belong on the thread. YMDC is designed to answer rules debates given by the OP, not to call him a judgemental liar.

Your last few posts are enough evidence to consider him a cheater.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
He was playing Blood Angels, not Space Marines. Here's his list in-depth.
Captain in Artificer Armour with a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol.
An Aegis Defence Line with a Comms Relay.
A tactical squad with ten men and two Plasma Cannons, with a Veteran Sergeant with Plasma Pistol.
A scout squad with a Missile Launcher, 4 snipers and 5 Cammo Cloaks.
Eight terminators, with a banner, the captain with a Power Sword, two with Chainfists and one with an Assault Cannon.
Two Predators with three Lascannons each.

If really hope the above is not correct. Aren't TO's supposed to verify list legality? I don't play tournaments, so I don't know. Anyway onto point breakdown.

Captain: 150 points
Tac squad: Illegal - cannot have 2 Plasma Cannons. If you meant Plasma Gun; 195 points
Scout Squad: 84 points
Terminators: 350 points Banner (only Banner I know of is 30 points and can only be taken by Assault Terminators)
Predator: 140 points
Predator: 140 points
ADL: 70 points

Total: approximately 1160 points.

For the argument on points costs.. the captain, preditors and unupgraded Terminators (squad of 5) breaks the 600 point limit in a Big way.. and that's with the Blood Angels Codex points. So.. yeah


Edit: Plus you cant take two heavy weapons (in this case plasma canons) in a tactical squad.

After going back and adding up all the legal load out optionsome you gave, this list is well over 1100 points. Now I dunno what the limit was, but he was bold face lying calling that 600 points. It's almost double that.

Plus there are quite a few illegal choices in the list the way you presented it.

The answer is to never play him again and if you go to a tournament where he shows up, ask to see his list. If he doesn't have one, ask to see his Codex and point out his list for him. Should take about 5 min or less and barely impacts the timeframe of an overall game of 40k. If the TO tells you to "get on with it" and not to worry about points, simply tell the TO that you're not worried about 5 points here or there, but you are worried about 500+ points extra.

You should never have continued the game.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

I don't see what you have against me, but I am reporting what happened in a clear way so that I can get a judgement on whether I was cheated. If all you want to do is question my story, you do not belong on the thread. YMDC is designed to answer rules debates given by the OP, not to call him a judgemental liar.

I have nothing against you, but you didn't provide most of those details. You kind of ASKED whether or not that list was within points, and I showed you how it is - and how Scouts ARE BS4 - if it was Vanilla Space Marines. It wasn't, which you didn't mention at all.
Your rules question was answered immediately.

Then you - and others - were judging that guy, and from what little of the story you had provided thus far I felt the reactions were way over the top. As you've now provided a much clearer report of what happened, I'll agree with you that that guy probably was cheating on purpose.

I'd suggest harrassing the TO a bit more next time, especially over the list thing. He was probably close to doubling the actual point limit, it's ridiculous that a TO ignores such an obvious thing.

nekooni wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

I don't see what you have against me, but I am reporting what happened in a clear way so that I can get a judgement on whether I was cheated. If all you want to do is question my story, you do not belong on the thread. YMDC is designed to answer rules debates given by the OP, not to call him a judgemental liar.

I have nothing against you, but you didn't provide most of those details. You kind of ASKED whether or not that list was within points, and I showed you how it is - and how Scouts ARE BS4 - if it was Vanilla Space Marines. It wasn't, which you didn't mention at all.
Your rules question was answered immediately.

Then you - and others - were judging that guy, and from what little of the story you had provided thus far I felt the reactions were way over the top. As you've now provided a much clearer report of what happened, I'll agree with you that that guy probably was cheating on purpose.

I'd suggest harrassing the TO a bit more next time, especially over the list thing. He was probably close to doubling the actual point limit, it's ridiculous that a TO ignores such an obvious thing.

My apologies. I simply felt that the situation in itself was sufficient evidence. Clearly others are more reserved in their judgements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really don't get how somebody gets to be a TO when they think that doubling the points limit is "trivial.". Can anybody explain this to me? Because I think just to glance at that army should give a CLEAR indication that it's over points with all the upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still, I only lost 1-0 to First Blood (which my Battle Cannon could have claimed), and overall I still passed to the next stage of the tournament. But so did he...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

I don't see what you have against me, but I am reporting what happened in a clear way so that I can get a judgement on whether I was cheated. If all you want to do is question my story, you do not belong on the thread. YMDC is designed to answer rules debates given by the OP, not to call him a judgemental liar.

I have nothing against you, but you didn't provide most of those details. You kind of ASKED whether or not that list was within points, and I showed you how it is - and how Scouts ARE BS4 - if it was Vanilla Space Marines. It wasn't, which you didn't mention at all.
Your rules question was answered immediately.

Then you - and others - were judging that guy, and from what little of the story you had provided thus far I felt the reactions were way over the top. As you've now provided a much clearer report of what happened, I'll agree with you that that guy probably was cheating on purpose.

I'd suggest harrassing the TO a bit more next time, especially over the list thing. He was probably close to doubling the actual point limit, it's ridiculous that a TO ignores such an obvious thing.

My apologies. I simply felt that the situation in itself was sufficient evidence. Clearly others are more reserved in their judgements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really don't get how somebody gets to be a TO when they think that doubling the points limit is "trivial.". Can anybody explain this to me? Because I think just to glance at that army should give a CLEAR indication that it's over points with all the upgrades.

Short answer... the guy was a bad TO. He either didn't know the rules well enough to realize that the points were way off or didn't care. Both are problems for a TO. Every tournament/organized play event I've ever been to has required a written army list. The TO "approves" it as valid and then you show it to your opponent so that there are no surprises. The fact that an 1100+ point list made it in a 600 point tournament tells me the TO was bad at his job.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
I really don't get how somebody gets to be a TO when they think that doubling the points limit is "trivial.". Can anybody explain this to me?

Uh, they get to be a TO by organising a tournament.

It's not some sort of exclusive group that you have to pass an entrance exam for.

You've been cheated :( when in doubt check the book. Or ask someone around you, and if you don't like their answer check the book. If you see that guy again make sure to tell him even if you dont play him, and especially if hes playing someone else. That way the person hes playing will thinking twice if he tries to make up bs again.

Name the TO.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Name the TO.

LOL
Joe Wolliner