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 Galef wrote:
I am actually sold that Warhammer is within the 40K universe, not only because of the concept similarities (Chaos gods, Eldar & Elf gods being the same, magic/psychic powers being drawn from the Warp, etc) but mainly because of the Old Ones.

Though I can appreciate that position, I think it's more to do with GW being lazy, GW making it possible to link the two universes if they ever decided to in the future, or both. Such recycling of ideas isn't indicative of them being part of the same universe.

 Galef wrote:
The Old Ones are the oldest known race that exists in both cannons. They originally fought against the Necrontyr (pre-Necrons) and created the Eldar & Orks (ork ancestors at least) in 40k. The Necrons eventually won (at a high cost that made them have to go into stasis) and the OLd Ones fled the galaxy.

In Fantasy they created the Elves (which is probably why the Elf & Eldar gods are the same), Lizardmen, Dwarves & Humans. Funnily enough, in Fantasy, the Old Ones arrived on the Warhammer Wolrd ON FREAKIN' SPACE SHIPS!!!!!! (see Lizardmen codex).

The Old ones also brought Orcs to the WH world by accident. Orc spores were on their ships. I wonder why? Because they had just created the Ork ancestors to fight the Necrons? Maybe.

Again, I think this is mostly down to "Look, we have some really cool ideas and two universes. Why don't we apply them to both and try to make them a bit different through context?"

Also, we don't know whether or not they actually fled the galaxy. All we know they either fled the galaxy or got themselves (effectively) destroyed.

I might have to read the Lizardmen Codex as well. Was it in every edition? Or mentioned in a specific edition? Also, if the Old Ones coming in on Space Ships is a thing, how do you know that's synonymous with the two universes being connected? It could be a case of, within the WHFB/AoS universe, the Old Ones are simply an incredibly advanced race compared to everyone else in the universe in a similar sort of way to the Europeans being more advanced compared to the Aboriginal People of Australia when the first landed here.

 Galef wrote:
All of this was current fluff before the Age of Sigmar dropped and gave us further evidence of the WH world being somewhere warp-like because of all the "Realms" the world split into. It also doesn't help that the new Fantasy race is freakin' Space Marines

I don't know if I buy Nagash as a Primarch, but Sigmar almost certainly is! GW left it ambiguous for a reason and I would not be surprised if they created a supplement that made it possible for both games to be played together (a la WarmaHordes). GW almost certainly sees Privateer Press' success and is slowly taking steps to "re-merge" their games.

I'm not particularly familiar with the WHFB fluff let alone AoS fluff, but how is the existence of many Realms within the AoS universe supposed to be evidence of it being connected to 40K?

I assume you're referring to the Stormcast Eternals (or whatever they are) as the AoS Space Marines? Because simply having an seemingly equivalent race fighting (much like the Space Marines) on the side of Order and Good doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the two universes are connected.

Yes, GW left it ambiguous (and by "It", I assume you mean the Primarchs and their Legions), but like most other things you've mentioned, how does that mean they're connected? For example, if I lose a piece of jewelry at my house and a friend finds a piece of jewelry at their house, that doesn't mean the two events are connected let alone that the piece of jewelry I lost is the piece they found. So, by your logic, Sigmar is a Primarch because the issue of the Two Missing Primcarchs was left ambiguous? That's sketchy at best.

As for the supplement that allows you to play the two games together (of which I have never heard, but that has no bearing on this), especially if the release of the aforementioned supplement is to do with the success of another company, why does that mean the two are connected? Allowing these two games to be played as if they were one is about as trivial as the ability for console players and PC players to play with and against each other. Also, you have to remember that GW is a modelling company first, everything else second. So a move like allowing fantasy armies to fight against 40K armies may simply be a business plan.

I can honestly see how you've connected the dots and I'll admit it is a fun theory, but I respectfully have to disagree. The universes are not connected, Sigmar is not one of the missing Primarchs, and his soldiers are not the corresponding missing Legion.


As far as Nagash being the other missing Primarch, the whole necromancy thing makes sense for replenishing the number's of his Legion, but like with all other connections between WHFB/AoS and W40K, there are so many holes that you could poke in it that it wouldn't be funny. For example, Nagash (if I remember right) started out as a (relatively) regular human male, which flies in the face of the Primarchs being between 9 and 15 feet tall and effectively immortal.

 hcls315 wrote:
IllumiNini I was expecting more academic discussion, less heat. Though thank you for the wise lesson in #DakkaDakkaWisdom. This certainly has turned into a far more interesting thread than I expected.

You must be new to the internet

 Galef wrote:
I am actually sold that Warhammer is within the 40K universe, not only because of the concept similarities (Chaos gods, Eldar & Elf gods being the same, magic/psychic powers being drawn from the Warp, etc) but mainly because of the Old Ones.

The Old Ones are the oldest known race that exists in both cannons. They originally fought against the Necrontyr (pre-Necrons) and created the Eldar & Orks (ork ancestors at least) in 40k. The Necrons eventually won (at a high cost that made them have to go into stasis) and the OLd Ones fled the galaxy.

In Fantasy they created the Elves (which is probably why the Elf & Eldar gods are the same), Lizardmen, Dwarves & Humans. Funnily enough, in Fantasy, the Old Ones arrived on the Warhammer Wolrd ON FREAKIN' SPACE SHIPS!!!!!! (see Lizardmen codex).
The Old ones also brought Orcs to the WH world by accident. Orc spores were on their ships. I wonder why? Because they had just created the Ork ancestors to fight the Necrons? Maybe.

All of this was current fluff before the Age of Sigmar dropped and gave us further evidence of the WH world being somewhere warp-like because of all the "Realms" the world split into. It also doesn't help that the new Fantasy race is freakin' Space Marines
I don't know if I buy Nagash as a Primarch, but Sigmar almost certainly is! GW left it ambiguous for a reason and I would not be surprised if they created a supplement that made it possible for both games to be played together (a la WarmaHordes). GW almost certainly sees Privateer Press' success and is slowly taking steps to "re-merge" their games.--

Warhammer is dead now, so the discussion is moot now, but they did not use to be the same universe. For a starter, the Eldar and High Elf and were not the same nor are the Chaos gods and neither do the Human gods exist in 40k. The timelines did not match up and magic works in a fundamentally different way from psychic powers in 40k. Sigmar can't be a Primarch because he was born from human parents, had a normal childhood and actually did ascend to godhood (his backstory is really detailed, there is no room for being a Primarch in there). and not just the world WHFB took place on, but the entire WHFB universe (including reality itself) was destroyed. If WHFB was within the 40k universe, that means 40k would have to be destroyed with it.
There is just too much difference between WHFB and 40k for them to have been in the same universe.

I also don't think GW will merge AoS with 40k. I have seen nothing that points towards that. The more likely fate is that GW will release some stuff for each faction, see if sales pick up and if not, let it die a slow death like the Hobbit.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Warhammer is dead now, so the discussion is moot now, but they did not use to be the same universe. For a starter, the Eldar and High Elf and were not the same nor are the Chaos gods and neither do the Human gods exist in 40k. The timelines did not match up and magic works in a fundamentally different way from psychic powers in 40k. Sigmar can't be a Primarch because he was born from human parents, had a normal childhood and actually did ascend to godhood (his backstory is really detailed, there is no room for being a Primarch in there). and not just the world WHFB took place on, but the entire WHFB universe (including reality itself) was destroyed. If WHFB was within the 40k universe, that means 40k would have to be destroyed with it.

The fun thing about the Timelines and "Reality" is that if, IF, the Warhammer World is in a pocket of space separated from the rest of the galaxy, Time and Reality would be irrelevant. All of "Reality" could have been destroyed in the WH universe "as they knew it" and the adjacent 40k universe not felt a thing. Also, time is distorted in the warp and doesn't flow in a way that we mortals can comprehend. Take, for example, Slaanesh. The Dark Prince has always been, yet all Eldar know that "She who Thirsts" was 'born' 10,000 years ago. If "reality" works slightly different in the WH world, it would only make sense for magic & psychic powers to work differently, but BOTH are drawn from the warp energies, can corrupt and fuel Daemon entities

I am not saying that there is 100% absolute proof that the 2 universes exist together, I am simply pointing out the there is no "proof" that they aren't. We can pretty much argue in either direction and both be right. I believe GW once wanted to distant the games between each other, but left it ambiguous for the sake of story-telling. Seeing their competitors' success with multi-games like WarhaHordes, I would not be surprised to see the games remerge to some degree

I actually see AoS as the first step in that direction. Warhammer Fantasy was failing and GW needed to change it, but instead of releasing 9th ed, they scrapped it in favor of a Skirmished based game in which the models are on round bases and brought in a new faction of super-heroic warriors clad in armour. Sounds like 40k to me. I don't think GW will risk revamping the rules for 40k all together like AoS, but I could see them releasing an optional ruleset that works just like AoS (and therefore could be played alongside it)

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There is absolutely no reason to think they could not be a world in the Imperium. This new "Age of Sigmar" realm could simply be the Daemonification of the world into a Daemon World. The Warp can do terrible things. Whose to say this isn't some terrible world trapped in the Warpstorms around the galaxy, distorting time, maybe even in the Maelstrom or Eye itself. Warpstorms and surges of 2magical" warp power are common of course.After all, each race in fantasy has a suitable counterpart in 40k and the justifications are not so difficult.

Humans (Bret, Empire); left over from Humanity's first foray into Space, trapped in a Warp Storm so long that they long ago forgot their origins like many others.
Dwarves - Squats who have reverted to primitive ways, cut off from technology
High Elves and Dark Elves - Exodites from the time of the Fall, trapped in this pocket of space and isolated from their race, they're psychic powers devolved via evolution as did the Dark Eldar
Lizardmen - the "Dragons" the Exodites always talk about. Dark Elves even had Cold Ones which are part of the Lizardman faction as well.
Chaos and Chaos Daemons (no need to explain). Beastmen exist in 40k as well
Tomb Kings - Part of the Necrontyr perhaps? Trapped in a Warp Storm before the biotransference and gradually regressed as with the other races and lost the ages. Eh, could be. Could explain the whole "Tomb Kings in space" angle if necrons are literally Tomb Kings in space.

Skaven are just Chaos rats, Vampire counts are powerful sorcerors.


Now, Sigmar as a Primarch rubs me the wrong way but his story does have similarities. Rise up the ransk quickly like none before, master of everything, unites his people by defeating the evil rivals. Sounds exactly like most Primarchs. He even disappeared, maybe the Emperor took him on Crusade? I mean, the two-tailed comet of Fantasy could be a twin-engined spacecraft coming into atmosphere. As said before, the change from Warhammer to Age of Sigmar could be the world sucumbing to the Warp and becoming a Daemon World, and these new "Sigmar-ines", maybe a manifestation of Sigmar's willpower, or rather, the humans are so desperate that the Warp spirits take the form of these sigmar warriors, could even be Daemons of Malal, fighting the Daemons of the Dark Gods as per their role, and given form by human's desperation which is reflected in the Warp

 Deadshot wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to think they could not be a world in the Imperium. This new "Age of Sigmar" realm could simply be the Daemonification of the world into a Daemon World. The Warp can do terrible things. Whose to say this isn't some terrible world trapped in the Warpstorms around the galaxy, distorting time, maybe even in the Maelstrom or Eye itself. Warpstorms and surges of 2magical" warp power are common of course.After all, each race in fantasy has a suitable counterpart in 40k and the justifications are not so difficult.

Humans (Bret, Empire); left over from Humanity's first foray into Space, trapped in a Warp Storm so long that they long ago forgot their origins like many others.
Dwarves - Squats who have reverted to primitive ways, cut off from technology
High Elves and Dark Elves - Exodites from the time of the Fall, trapped in this pocket of space and isolated from their race, they're psychic powers devolved via evolution as did the Dark Eldar
Lizardmen - the "Dragons" the Exodites always talk about. Dark Elves even had Cold Ones which are part of the Lizardman faction as well.
Chaos and Chaos Daemons (no need to explain). Beastmen exist in 40k as well
Tomb Kings - Part of the Necrontyr perhaps? Trapped in a Warp Storm before the biotransference and gradually regressed as with the other races and lost the ages. Eh, could be. Could explain the whole "Tomb Kings in space" angle if necrons are literally Tomb Kings in space.

Skaven are just Chaos rats, Vampire counts are powerful sorcerors.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemon_World

From the above link, it can be seen that it would not quite work being a Daemon World. They're ruled by a Daemon Prince and their patron(s) - one or more of the Chaos Gods - and often shaped by the characteristics and whims of the world's occupants and their masters. Also, the Daemon World doesn't abide by the laws of physics, to these's something else that would be inconsistent since the AoS Realm - at least mostly - adheres to the laws of physics.

Not to mention the similarities you've drawn are similarities at best. And I'd be willing to bet that any way you try to link the races in 40K to those in WHFB/AoS, there will always be loop holes. For example, consider what you said about the Tomb kings:

Part of the Necrontyr perhaps? Trapped in a Warp Storm before the biotransference and gradually regressed as with the other races and lost the ages. Eh, could be. Could explain the whole "Tomb Kings in space" angle if necrons are literally Tomb Kings in space.

Considering one army was created entirely at the whims of the WHFB World's most powerful necromancer ever and the other army was a civilization bound in metal caskets (essentially) by beings that are (for all intents and purposes) gods, there's a big problem with one being a subset of the other.


Back on the original topic: One of the missing Primarchs is almost surely dead, while the other's fate is, IMO, a fun point of more interesting speculation, but only within the 40K (no crossovers).