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Hello all, after a recent article by BOLS, I suddenly had an idea about the two missing primarchs. Since the Warhammer worlds (both 40K and AoS) were so similar in parallel, could the two missing primarchs be Sigmar and Nagash? They were lost forever because they were in a completely different universe. Thoughts? Comments?

No. Period.

I have so much disdain for this concept and people have been coining this idea for a while. Yes, WHFB/AoS and W40K draw a lot of similarities like the names and traits of the Chaos gods, and other things like Tomb Kings and Necrons essentially being the same army, but I don't think that they're at all linked whatsoever.

Some people seem to like the idea that the world in which WHFB/AoS is set on is a Daemon World sitting in the Eye of Terror, but I feel that that idea would fall apart the moment you start scrutinizing it. In relation to this idea, one of the first things that falls apart is the following: In 40K, the Primarchs were scattered across the galaxy by the Chaos Gods. It just seems essentially impossible for two Primarchs to not only land on the same world, but a Daemon World in the Eye of Terror.

Also, if the universes weren't linked so easily (i.e. "completely different universes" as you said), how did they get there?

I don't like this concept because it tries to hard to assign an identity to the missing Primarchs whose identity and that of their Legion are supposed to be surrounded in secrecy and mystery. Also, there are so many ways you can look at the idea of two powerful figures in WHFB/AoS (like Nagash and Sigmar) that would bust the theory wide open.

Samus Aran is clearly one of the missing Primarchs.

This topic has been beaten to death repeatedly.

The Space Wolves destroyed the two missing legions.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
This topic has been beaten to death repeatedly.

Yes, yes it has; and the OP probably could have found their answer by googling it or searching the forums. I was almost tempted to ask the mods to close the thread, but I figured it'd be interesting to see if this thread took a relatively unique direction.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Space Wolves destroyed the two missing legions.

A popular, strongly based theory, but like all others: it isn't solid fact.

Maybe the Emperor, being old as feth, remembered the roman legions and said "It be a great idea to model my forces after that. Nothing bad happened to the romans"

Well, not exactly the response that I had intended for, but at least I got thoughts and comments. I feel like Magos Varnak when Behemoth attacked the Tyran system. I wouldn't mind this thread closing anytime soon before this blows completely out of proportion.

 hcls315 wrote:
Well, not exactly the response that I had intended for, but at least I got thoughts and comments.

Posting on DakkaDakka is like holding onto a horse by the reigns while standing next to it, then smacking it on the behind and watching it run. You may think it's going to go straight ahead, but in truth it could do anything. #DakkaDakkaWisdom hahahaha

I'm curious though: What sort of response were you expecting?

 hcls315 wrote:
I wouldn't mind this thread closing anytime soon before this blows completely out of proportion.

If it does get out of control, I'm sure the mods will sort it out.

IllumiNini I was expecting more academic discussion, less heat. Though thank you for the wise lesson in #DakkaDakkaWisdom. This certainly has turned into a far more interesting thread than I expected.

 hcls315 wrote:
IllumiNini I was expecting more academic discussion, less heat. Though thank you for the wise lesson in #DakkaDakkaWisdom. This certainly has turned into a far more interesting thread than I expected.

With the amount of times this discussion has been had, academic discussion on this topic is almost non-existent haha.

And no worries. I kinda feel like there should be a #DakkaDakaWisdom thread somewhere on this site. That would be entertaining to say the least ahaha

It probably won't get out of control. It's just that you see this topic crop up a couple of times every few months and the longer standing members get a touch bored of the more common questions.

The business line is that they were left open for players to come up with Chapters that were derived from somebody other than the other 18 Legions. The fluff theories are numerous from the probable to the wacky. All should be taken with a pinch of salt as there is very little written about it. In every case, all of it is open to interpretation and all of it is written from the various perspectives of various authors and various in-universe characters, so none of it is concrete evidence. You may as well leave the thread open as the topic will only crop up again soon and if the Mods were to attempt to cut out this topic then they'd be backwards and forwards every other week. In any case, so long as everybody is fairly polite, the ideas are always interesting to read, even if you disagree. It only becomes a problem when people stop reading carefully and climb up on their soapboxes.

Just to summarise. This is what you'll hear a lot of:

1. The Legions were assimilated into the Ultramarines as their numbers increased rapidly.
2. The Legions were destroyed by the Wolves.
3. The Legions sent the Wolves running.
4. The Legions were mutated.
5. The Legions turned traitor.
6. The Primarchs were killed.
7. The Primarchs were female.
8. The Primarchs were mutated.
9. The Primarchs were pacifists.
10. The Primarchs were never found.

TLDR: Sit back, relax and enjoy the rage.

Thought malcadors comment about making them female and the emperor thought he was saying it in jest debunked that

Well I'm not going to say I subscribe to any of the theories. I'm just saying that's what will crop up at some point.

Warpig1815 wrote:It probably won't get out of control. It's just that you see this topic crop up a couple of times every few months and the longer standing members get a touch bored of the more common questions.

The business line is that they were left open for players to come up with Chapters that were derived from somebody other than the other 18 Legions. The fluff theories are numerous from the probable to the wacky. All should be taken with a pinch of salt as there is very little written about it. In every case, all of it is open to interpretation and all of it is written from the various perspectives of various authors and various in-universe characters, so none of it is concrete evidence. You may as well leave the thread open as the topic will only crop up again soon and if the Mods were to attempt to cut out this topic then they'd be backwards and forwards every other week. In any case, so long as everybody is fairly polite, the ideas are always interesting to read, even if you disagree. It only becomes a problem when people stop reading carefully and climb up on their soapboxes.

Just to summarise. This is what you'll hear a lot of:

1. The Legions were assimilated into the Ultramarines as their numbers increased rapidly.
2. The Legions were destroyed by the Wolves.
3. The Legions sent the Wolves running.
4. The Legions were mutated.
5. The Legions turned traitor.
6. The Primarchs were killed.
7. The Primarchs were female.
8. The Primarchs were mutated.
9. The Primarchs were pacifists.
10. The Primarchs were never found.

That is probably one of the most concise and completely encompassing summaries I've ever read haha.

Warpig1815 wrote:Sit back, relax and enjoy the rage.

Don't forget the repetition haha

Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:Thought malcadors comment about making them female and the emperor thought he was saying it in jest debunked that

Essentially yes. They tossed up the idea but ultimately disregarded it in favour of 20 (21) male Primarchs.

 IllumiNini wrote:
I have so much disdain for this concept and people have been coining this idea for a while. Yes, WHFB/AoS and W40K draw a lot of similarities like the names and traits of the Chaos gods, and other things like Tomb Kings and Necrons essentially being the same army, but I don't think that they're at all linked whatsoever..

They were, once.

There was a comment made back in Rogue Trader to the effect that the Warhammer World was a fuedal world in the 40K universe, isolated from the rest of the galaxy by warp storms. That idea stuck for a lot of people, despite GW gradually moving away from it. From at least 10 years or so ago, the studio started saying when asked about this that the two games were no longer considered linked, but just shared some similar concepts.


SO it's not actually that silly a suggestion... just outdated.

 insaniak wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
I have so much disdain for this concept and people have been coining this idea for a while. Yes, WHFB/AoS and W40K draw a lot of similarities like the names and traits of the Chaos gods, and other things like Tomb Kings and Necrons essentially being the same army, but I don't think that they're at all linked whatsoever..

They were, once.

There was a comment made back in Rogue Trader to the effect that the Warhammer World was a fuedal world in the 40K universe, isolated from the rest of the galaxy by warp storms. That idea stuck for a lot of people, despite GW gradually moving away from it. From at least 10 years or so ago, the studio started saying when asked about this that the two games were no longer considered linked, but just shared some similar concepts.


SO it's not actually that silly a suggestion... just outdated.

Fair enough. I joined the hobby and started doing research into the fluff within the last 8 years, so I completely missed that. I always thought it was pure fan speculation with no basis in GW and/or what they wrote.

Only one not on that list I've heard was that one or both may of been pariahs. Which didn't make any sense to me at all considering how they were made (infused with warp energy blah ditty blah)

I've never thought of AoS as currently exsisting in wh40k but more of a "what happened in the age of strife" type of thing. I don't know crap about AoS or any of its lore but for some reason that made sense to me considering the appearance of the lightning bolt everywhere

There used to be heavy references that the Fantasy Realm was in 40k, there were various references to 40k technology - even going so far as to have a chaos warrior carrying a boltgun in the background of one art work. And as much as I love the idea that they have heavy links, it has been officially retconned that they are the same universe, alas, Sigmar and Nagash could not be primarchs (though that would have been cool as hell).

And also why they disappeared is controversial, but here's a general consensus:
-The other chaos legions haven't been scrubbed from history only declared Excommunicate Traitoris, so many think that can't be it.
-Mutation is known among the legions, though theirs may have been more extreme so that's plausible.
-The fluff states they were made out of the emperor's own DNA, so whether or not a pesky chromosome got switched in one particular case we don't know, call it plausible if unlikely.
-They were destroyed by the Wolves or subsumed into the Ultramarines? Definitely possible for the legionaries, but the primarchs aren't mentioned.
-Primarchs were pacifists? In 40k that would be simple, but 30k is much more sensible and it is doubted that they'd be removed from history entirely for it. Still plausible.
-Primarchs were never found? Sanguinius and the others consistently note that they were destroyed, not missing.
-They were killed? Ferrus Manus is still remembered, why wouldn't the others be? (Unless traitors or mutation applies)

Well, that's what I have to say. I am also disappointed that this did get so heated so quickly, I love discussing the more interesting parts of the lore.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
-The other chaos legions haven't been scrubbed from history only declared Excommunicate Traitoris, so many think that can't be it.

The other Traitor Legions are still around, so erasing them from history would be a foolish thing to do.

The 2nd edition fluff stated that the missing Legions 'probably' fought on Horus' side in the Heresy. The inference there was that they were traitors who had been completely wiped out, and so were erased from history as a final punishment for their misdeeds.

The Horus Heresy novel series has retconned that, by having them already gone well before the Heresy started.

-Mutation is known among the legions, though theirs may have been more extreme so that's plausible.

Known, but feared. In one of the novels Sanguinius mentions keeping his son's flaws a secret out of fear of not wanting to have his Legion join the missing two...

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
There used to be heavy references that the Fantasy Realm was in 40k, there were various references to 40k technology - even going so far as to have a chaos warrior carrying a boltgun in the background of one art work. And as much as I love the idea that they have heavy links, it has been officially retconned that they are the same universe, alas, Sigmar and Nagash could not be primarchs (though that would have been cool as hell).

And also why they disappeared is controversial, but here's a general consensus:
-The other chaos legions haven't been scrubbed from history only declared Excommunicate Traitoris, so many think that can't be it.
-Mutation is known among the legions, though theirs may have been more extreme so that's plausible.
-The fluff states they were made out of the emperor's own DNA, so whether or not a pesky chromosome got switched in one particular case we don't know, call it plausible if unlikely.
-They were destroyed by the Wolves or subsumed into the Ultramarines? Definitely possible for the legionaries, but the primarchs aren't mentioned.
-Primarchs were pacifists? In 40k that would be simple, but 30k is much more sensible and it is doubted that they'd be removed from history entirely for it. Still plausible.
-Primarchs were never found? Sanguinius and the others consistently note that they were destroyed, not missing.
-They were killed? Ferrus Manus is still remembered, why wouldn't the others be? (Unless traitors or mutation applies)

Well, that's what I have to say. I am also disappointed that this did get so heated so quickly, I love discussing the more interesting parts of the lore.

"Prospero Burns" also mentions that this wasn't the first time the Wolves have been called to "sanction" another legion. Doesn't mean fully destroyed tho.
Whatever it was it also caused Lorgar and Magnus to feel "sad" about it as well.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
There used to be heavy references that the Fantasy Realm was in 40k, there were various references to 40k technology - even going so far as to have a chaos warrior carrying a boltgun in the background of one art work. And as much as I love the idea that they have heavy links, it has been officially retconned that they are the same universe, alas, Sigmar and Nagash could not be primarchs (though that would have been cool as hell).

And also why they disappeared is controversial, but here's a general consensus:
-The other chaos legions haven't been scrubbed from history only declared Excommunicate Traitoris, so many think that can't be it.
-Mutation is known among the legions, though theirs may have been more extreme so that's plausible.
-The fluff states they were made out of the emperor's own DNA, so whether or not a pesky chromosome got switched in one particular case we don't know, call it plausible if unlikely.
-They were destroyed by the Wolves or subsumed into the Ultramarines? Definitely possible for the legionaries, but the primarchs aren't mentioned.
-Primarchs were pacifists? In 40k that would be simple, but 30k is much more sensible and it is doubted that they'd be removed from history entirely for it. Still plausible.
-Primarchs were never found? Sanguinius and the others consistently note that they were destroyed, not missing.
-They were killed? Ferrus Manus is still remembered, why wouldn't the others be? (Unless traitors or mutation applies)

I agree with the points you've labelled as plausible actually being plausible, though my reasoning may be a bit different. For example, the mutation scenario depends on how extreme the mutation is as well as the nature of it.

As for turning to Chaos, that is still plausible since we know nothing about the size of the Legions and, assuming they turned to Chaos, we don't know the extent of their actions after they turned traitor. So it's still plausible, but their Legions probably would have had to be small and the extent of their treachery would have to be minimal for them to cover it up and then purge their records.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I am also disappointed that this did get so heated so quickly, I love discussing the more interesting parts of the lore.

I love discussing the more in-depth lore, too. Also, what part of this discussion is heated? I'd be curious to know. Maybe the way I worded my first comment was a bit strong, but this thread definitely isn't heated.

From what I heard, Sigmar was born from human parents. He wasn't discovered like the Primarchs. So even if there was a link between one of the two missing Primarchs and Sigmar, the fact that he was born from humans makes him not a Primarch.

Heres my head cannon for one of the primarchs.

"I like to think that one of the Primarchs ended up on an Ork world and fought his way up the ranks to end up as a Warboss (typical Blood Axes, having an umie as a boss). The Emperor shows up to collect him but soon discovered that Ork tradition runs deep. After a while all the WAAAGHs, looting, and calling the other Primarchs gitz pushed the Emperior's patience to the limit. The Wolves where called to end Warmarch Viridius Corium and his Astorkes. The Emperor declared that all records to be purged and usage of the word "git" by any Astartes to be punishable by death."

 Vankraken wrote:
Heres my head cannon for one of the primarchs.

"I like to think that one of the Primarchs ended up on an Ork world and fought his way up the ranks to end up as a Warboss (typical Blood Axes, having an umie as a boss). The Emperor shows up to collect him but soon discovered that Ork tradition runs deep. After a while all the WAAAGHs, looting, and calling the other Primarchs gitz pushed the Emperior's patience to the limit. The Wolves where called to end Warmarch Viridius Corium and his Astorkes. The Emperor declared that all records to be purged and usage of the word "git" by any Astartes to be punishable by death."

I heart this

 Vankraken wrote:
Heres my head cannon for one of the primarchs.

"I like to think that one of the Primarchs ended up on an Ork world and fought his way up the ranks to end up as a Warboss (typical Blood Axes, having an umie as a boss). The Emperor shows up to collect him but soon discovered that Ork tradition runs deep. After a while all the WAAAGHs, looting, and calling the other Primarchs gitz pushed the Emperior's patience to the limit. The Wolves where called to end Warmarch Viridius Corium and his Astorkes. The Emperor declared that all records to be purged and usage of the word "git" by any Astartes to be punishable by death."

OMG ... This is so great ... Suck it Rowboat Girlyman.

For those who are interested in the link between WFB and 40K, in White Dwarf 93, when Rogue Trader was released, they had this to say, 'The Warhammer 40,000 background is an extension of the Warhammer game series, linking the Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay games into a complete background.' There were lots of cross-overs but, really it's kinds redundant to mention them since the two universe were linked once upon a time which is why Sigmar being a missing Primarch made sense at one time.

Vankraken wrote:Heres my head cannon for one of the primarchs.

"I like to think that one of the Primarchs ended up on an Ork world and fought his way up the ranks to end up as a Warboss (typical Blood Axes, having an umie as a boss). The Emperor shows up to collect him but soon discovered that Ork tradition runs deep. After a while all the WAAAGHs, looting, and calling the other Primarchs gitz pushed the Emperior's patience to the limit. The Wolves where called to end Warmarch Viridius Corium and his Astorkes. The Emperor declared that all records to be purged and usage of the word "git" by any Astartes to be punishable by death."

A very entertaining theory. I love it! haha

One of my personal favourites is that the during the time between when their supposed crime was committed and their records being expunged, the remainder of at least one of the Legions (both if they committed the same crime and/or were complicit in each other's crimes) fled beyond the reasonable reaches of the Imperium. Now in exile, their Primarchs were killed either before their flight from the Imperium or relatively soon after (in the same sort of way that the remaining Loyalist Primarchs went missing). Now they're beyond/outside the reach of the Imperium and still operating in some limited capacity.

 Vankraken wrote:
Heres my head cannon for one of the primarchs.

"I like to think that one of the Primarchs ended up on an Ork world and fought his way up the ranks to end up as a Warboss (typical Blood Axes, having an umie as a boss). The Emperor shows up to collect him but soon discovered that Ork tradition runs deep. After a while all the WAAAGHs, looting, and calling the other Primarchs gitz pushed the Emperior's patience to the limit. The Wolves where called to end Warmarch Viridius Corium and his Astorkes. The Emperor declared that all records to be purged and usage of the word "git" by any Astartes to be punishable by death."

God, it's ideas like this that make me sorry I started with orks and already have so much painted. I'd love to theme an army around this (and about 100 other orky ideas.)

This is one of those threads that you look at and say "Yay, this thread again, if only I had a penny for each time..."

Expect heat, not discussion.

I am actually sold that Warhammer is within the 40K universe, not only because of the concept similarities (Chaos gods, Eldar & Elf gods being the same, magic/psychic powers being drawn from the Warp, etc) but mainly because of the Old Ones.

The Old Ones are the oldest known race that exists in both cannons. They originally fought against the Necrontyr (pre-Necrons) and created the Eldar & Orks (ork ancestors at least) in 40k. The Necrons eventually won (at a high cost that made them have to go into stasis) and the OLd Ones fled the galaxy.

In Fantasy they created the Elves (which is probably why the Elf & Eldar gods are the same), Lizardmen, Dwarves & Humans. Funnily enough, in Fantasy, the Old Ones arrived on the Warhammer Wolrd ON FREAKIN' SPACE SHIPS!!!!!! (see Lizardmen codex).
The Old ones also brought Orcs to the WH world by accident. Orc spores were on their ships. I wonder why? Because they had just created the Ork ancestors to fight the Necrons? Maybe.

All of this was current fluff before the Age of Sigmar dropped and gave us further evidence of the WH world being somewhere warp-like because of all the "Realms" the world split into. It also doesn't help that the new Fantasy race is freakin' Space Marines
I don't know if I buy Nagash as a Primarch, but Sigmar almost certainly is! GW left it ambiguous for a reason and I would not be surprised if they created a supplement that made it possible for both games to be played together (a la WarmaHordes). GW almost certainly sees Privateer Press' success and is slowly taking steps to "re-merge" their games.

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