Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Jokaero get a pass by the inquisition because they are not seen to be intelligent as a society. More like living animal tools that make other tools. Watchers on the other hand........

They may be just abhumans, abhumans are tolerated.
I don't remember them being called xenos.

 godardc wrote:
They may be just abhumans, abhumans are tolerated.
I don't remember them being called xenos.

then boom, these wulfen are just abhumans you can't prove otherwise

 Brennonjw wrote:

 godardc wrote:
They may be just abhumans, abhumans are tolerated.
I don't remember them being called xenos.

then boom, these wulfen are just abhumans you can't prove otherwise

Yes, they are.


But the level of mutation tolerated by the Imperium varies, usually measured by some vague standard of deviation from the "Holy Human Form", and whether said mutation is Warp inflicted.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It's stupid, we're expected to believe the changling wouldn't be detected by the most convoluted and secretive chapter in 40k, the same chapter that plants key phrases in even it's highest ranking members in case they get out of line, masters of rooting out any and all corruption, using mundane and psychic techniques, whom screening everyone is a daily occurrence for the librarius, I've seen plot armour before, but this takes the biscuit.

It's bad story telling is what it is, it would have been much better if logan had found out the dark angels secrets and the angels had to silence the wolves, showing how far they had fallen, and used the "mutants" as an excuse to bring others on board.

No. The Changeling is the best infiltrator in the entire galaxy (he is literally indistinguishable from an actual Dark Angel in any way), and the Dark Angels' security is good but far from perfect. The Changeling managed to infiltrate all the way into the throneroom of the god Slaanesh to cut its hair and who put Nurglings on Khorne's throne. Compared to that, infiltrating the Dark Angels and impersonating Sammael is a simple job. You are just butthurt your favourite faction got deceived.

He "infiltrated" how? At the stroke of a pen, that's how, we're expected to believe a deamon won't be noticed by the dark angels, the people who look into the souls of there marines.. Daily, these same people wouldn't notice a soulless being, and the watchers wouldn't notice, Luther wouldn't notice, etc. No its a load of bull, they need to write how changling did it, not just say that he did, it's Mary sue and total fan spank, I expect better.

 Formosa wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It's stupid, we're expected to believe the changling wouldn't be detected by the most convoluted and secretive chapter in 40k, the same chapter that plants key phrases in even it's highest ranking members in case they get out of line, masters of rooting out any and all corruption, using mundane and psychic techniques, whom screening everyone is a daily occurrence for the librarius, I've seen plot armour before, but this takes the biscuit.

It's bad story telling is what it is, it would have been much better if logan had found out the dark angels secrets and the angels had to silence the wolves, showing how far they had fallen, and used the "mutants" as an excuse to bring others on board.

No. The Changeling is the best infiltrator in the entire galaxy (he is literally indistinguishable from an actual Dark Angel in any way), and the Dark Angels' security is good but far from perfect. The Changeling managed to infiltrate all the way into the throneroom of the god Slaanesh to cut its hair and who put Nurglings on Khorne's throne. Compared to that, infiltrating the Dark Angels and impersonating Sammael is a simple job. You are just butthurt your favourite faction got deceived.

He "infiltrated" how? At the stroke of a pen, that's how, we're expected to believe a deamon won't be noticed by the dark angels, the people who look into the souls of there marines.. Daily, these same people wouldn't notice a soulless being, and the watchers wouldn't notice, Luther wouldn't notice, etc. No its a load of bull, they need to write how changling did it, not just say that he did, it's Mary sue and total fan spank, I expect better.

IIRC they thought they were bringing a Scout on the brink of death who may have had critical information in. Luther speaks in gibberish and don't give that Watcher stuff because if you can sneak well enough to play tricks on Chaos Gods you can dodge little hooded people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 godardc wrote:
They may be just abhumans, abhumans are tolerated.
I don't remember them being called xenos.

then boom, these wulfen are just abhumans you can't prove otherwise

Yes, they are.


But the level of mutation tolerated by the Imperium varies, usually measured by some vague standard of deviation from the "Holy Human Form", and whether said mutation is Warp inflicted.

A Wulfen is closer to looking human than a Jokaero is and comes from a normal Astartes whereas Jokaero are a different species entirely. So there goes the mutation argument and we know it's not the Warp unless you want to argue Njal Stormcaller can't detect Chaos.

What is with the disbelief in the Changeling infiltrating the rock and fooling everyone? It's so strange.

The Changeling can fool damn near anyone, that's his entire being. That's what he IS. It's also all he has, it's not like he's powerful in any other way. All those dark angels would decimate him if they knew it was him.

There's a fluff example of the Changeling fooling a grey knight I believe, so it's not like there isn't precedent for this. I really don't understand the reluctance towards accepting it. I personally think it was an interesting and neat way to leave the story hanging and give a teaser of larger events in motion behind the scenes.

It's just a story anyways, and the Changeling is nothing more than a plot device for these exact kinds of circumstances. Tzeentch is about change, deception, trickery. Did you expect there to be none of that involved in the story?

Really seems like the "fanspank" here is actually from dark angels fans who don't like the Changeling fooling their special snowflake chapter into bombing a loyalist chapters home world. At least the dark angels have decent rules, the Changeling is a fething joke on the tabletop. If he wasn't cool in the plot, he might as well not exist.

I find the comment about plot armour hilarious. The Changeling has plot armour? He's just a plot device to signify deception within a group of military personnel. He hasn't even been in a fight as far as I can recall. Meanwhile, the wolves have the largest most protective set of plot armour ever, followed closely by every other marine chapter.

Seems like you just don't like whatever you call "plot armour" unless it's your chapter wearing it.

Engrenages wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
This is how that would go:

DA Chaplain Ebony Dementia Way: "Do you guys have mutants running around down there?"

SW IronWolf Wolferson The Wulf-Wolf: "Wolfwolf WOLFWOLFWOLF DRINKWIMMENFECK"

DA: "Right. Pull the other one."

SW WolfLord WolfMcWolfmuscle : Wolfwolf WOLFWOLFWOLF ARROOOO???

DA Mikhael Tyghtlips Master of Silence Supreme : ... ...

Fixed those for ya

I'll accept anything so long as the Space Wolves lose a bunch of their soldiers. Their plot armor is the most sickening out of any other army.

godardc wrote:They may be just abhumans, abhumans are tolerated.
I don't remember them being called xenos.

The Watchers in the Dark are directly stated to be Xenos in Fallen Angels, and Descent of Angels. Of course, those very same books state that the Watchers in the Dark are so powerful that an Astartes Librarian is like an insect in comparison to them, so, make of it what you will.

People misunderstand, it's not just the rock, it's the changlings fluff, it's stupid, they need to explain how the thing works, does it absorb people entire memories, personality etc. I don't like the handwavium "he just did it"

I don't think there should be an explanation of how the greatest shapeshifter of the god of deception does things. Multiple conflicting accounts is fine, too, I suppose. "The Changeling" might not even refer to a single entity, anyway.

 SickSix wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I just like the karma factor here.

"What's that Space Wolves? You're home is getting blown up because some outside faction is changing orders and controlling info? Wow, that must sure suck." - Magnus, Ahriman, and every other sentient TS after they were told of the changelings actions.


Beyond that the Dark Angels are being hypocritical donkey-caves as usual.

how are they being hypocritcal? the dark angels have never, as far as we know, brooked mutation among their chapter

They just allow Xenos to live onboard their main base and take advice from them. Which totally isn't illegal in the Imperium.

Right, because these aren't a thing.

No one benefits intentionally from Jokero, except by being near them and benefiting second hand. Jokero in the fluff don't communicate with humans and act more like literal monkeys playing with stuff than technical experts. Also they don't "belong" or aren't attached to the inquisitors in anyway. In fact the fluff says they are impossible to hold in captivity for any length of time. Some inquisitors can benefit from their services by stumbling across one and gaining its loyalty temporarily by giving it technical stuff to play with. but even then this relationship is measured in days at most. That isnt really the same thing as the watchers in the dark. there is an intentional two way symbiotic relationship involving mutual benefit/use that both the watchers and the DA knowingly engage in. Asking the jokero to improve something, like say a weapon is like getting a Dog you are still training to fetch you a beer. Sometimes its a beer, and sometimes its a dead animal from the yard.

Yet they are useful enough to get a mini to use in the game? Sounds to me they shouldn't even have a table top representative.

 SickSix wrote:
Yet they are useful enough to get a mini to use in the game? Sounds to me they shouldn't even have a table top representative.

Yep, Jokaero are on the tabletop.

I'm sure GW will take your opinion into consideration the next time the "Why Jokaero?" meeting is held. (Hint: This meeting is never held.)

Jokaero are Xenos, yes. They are also considered to be non-sapient Xenos. Animals, like grox (which feed the Imperium entire). They have a genetic understanding of technology and can create wondrous devices (all those "digital weapons" you see are Jokaero-built). However, you don't go up to a Jokaero and say "make me a digi-melta" and expect a digi-melta. You dump a huge pile of tech-parts in front of one and wait to see what he or she builds. Maybe it will be a digi-melta. Maybe it will be a personal teleporter. Maybe it will be an upgraded version of the common paper-spike. Maybe it will be something you cannot define the functions of or even form the words to describe. But, whatever the Jokaero makes, it will, at least, be interesting.

The reason the Jokaero are allowed to live is because they are considered animals. They don't appear to comprehend what humans are and do not pose any sort of threat, on any level, to the Imperium, and seem perfectly content building random stuff that the Imperium can put to use.

Wait... What if the Changeling is actually an Alpha Legion operative? Conspiracy theories within conspiracy theories!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Wait... What if the Changeling is actually an Alpha Legion operative? Conspiracy theories within conspiracy theories!

The Alpha Legion have never succeeded at anything. The Changeling frequently does.

regarding Jokaero. yes, they are used by some Inqusitors are are an option in Codex: Inqusition..
So are DEAMON WEAPONS! Anyone wanna argue this makes it ok for the space wolves, dark angels etc to use those too?

You see, what we're talkin' about here is a daemon that imitates other life-forms, and it imitates 'em perfectly. This for instance. That's not Space Wolf. It's imitation...

The Changeling infiltrated the Council of Nikaea. The Emperor, Magnus the Red and Malcador the Sigillite didn't notice him. I don't think Dark Angels should be a problem for this guy.

 Formosa wrote:
People misunderstand, it's not just the rock, it's the changlings fluff, it's stupid, they need to explain how the thing works, does it absorb people entire memories, personality etc. I don't like the handwavium "he just did it"

No, they don't.
It's called mystery. If you need an answer so damned badly, then try using your imagination.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
You see, what we're talkin' about here is a daemon that imitates other life-forms, and it imitates 'em perfectly. This for instance. That's not Space Wolf. It's imitation...

The Changeling infiltrated the Council of Nikaea. The Emperor, Magnus the Red and Malcador the Sigillite didn't notice him. I don't think Dark Angels should be a problem for this guy.

1st, love the Thing quote. One of my favorite movies, and it absolutely made my day to see that.

2nd, Changeling goes where Changeling pleases.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Wait... What if the Changeling is actually an Alpha Legion operative? Conspiracy theories within conspiracy theories!

The Alpha Legion have never succeeded at anything.

That is what they want you to think...

As long as the Grey Knights suffer I'm happy. Though I think the Wolves are still the best Space Marines. Shame there ain't a were-cat variant. I'd buy that. As far as the Dark Angels go, they've always been a bit too secretive for their own good, and I'm surprised with their reputation they were able to draw in any support.

So are DEAMON WEAPONS! Anyone wanna argue this makes it ok for the space wolves, dark angels etc to use those too?

Historically, the Relictors and the Night Reapers. The argument didn't go well for them, though.

Ultimately, the Dark Angels are every bit as arrogant as the Space Wolves. Both will happily ignore any other authority if they believe 'they're in the right'.

What seems to have barely been brought up, and each time overlooked, is the fact that no matter how perfect the Changeling is, at the end of the day it is a daemon, and the Dark Angels (as this thread has said) use daily psychic screenings. If the Dark Angels use even above-average level security outside of that fact, it means unless the Changeling types -godmode into his metaphorical console and start moving through walls, while also not even being able to be picked up on camera (which is not something that I can't imagine happening, to be fair) he's not going to make it very far before some kind of confrontation. Or do the Dark Angels just decide to not put a wounded scout through the same security protocols as they do for everyone else? If that's the case, then their security is just a bunch of hot air and they deserved to be infiltrated. And to be perfectly honest, I'd find that answer acceptable.

Well maybe the eyewitness they needed alive but on the brink of death was rushed through things a bit.

The emperor himself didn't notice him.

Come on guys, it's the only thing he is! Is it really that hard to let a being who is something be good at that thing?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The emperor himself didn't notice him.

Come on guys, it's the only thing he is! Is it really that hard to let a being who is something be good at that thing?

Normally not, but this is, as 40k often is, a clash of two of those things and we're trying to sort out who really deserves to win. Like I said earlier, I'm in the camp that the Dark Angels' security measures aren't quite as tight as they're reported to be. They sound like a bunch of pretentious jokers.

Their security measures are supposedly greater than the emperor's, all things considered?

In Dark Heresy, it is very difficult to notice (even psychically) that someone made a deamonic pact,as the deamon tries to hide his influence.
I guess it is the same: the changeling uses his immenses powers/will/intellect.
Deamons are litteraly "godlike".

 Quarterdime wrote:
What seems to have barely been brought up, and each time overlooked, is the fact that no matter how perfect the Changeling is, at the end of the day it is a daemon, and the Dark Angels (as this thread has said) use daily psychic screenings. If the Dark Angels use even above-average level security outside of that fact, it means unless the Changeling types -godmode into his metaphorical console and start moving through walls, while also not even being able to be picked up on camera (which is not something that I can't imagine happening, to be fair) he's not going to make it very far before some kind of confrontation. Or do the Dark Angels just decide to not put a wounded scout through the same security protocols as they do for everyone else? If that's the case, then their security is just a bunch of hot air and they deserved to be infiltrated. And to be perfectly honest, I'd find that answer acceptable.

An ultra-powerful psychic being being able to confound, confuse and otherwise "override" other, lesser psychic beings does not seem at all out of the realm of possibility. As far as being able to avoid detection by cameras? There's a psychic power called "Invisibility".

After all, the Emperor surrounded Himself with the Sisters of Silence, blanks all of them, and yet was not, Himself, hindered by their presence. His power was such that it over-rode their Blankness. The Changeling is the Changeling. Obfuscation and infiltration is what it does.