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pm713 wrote:
Well maybe the eyewitness they needed alive but on the brink of death was rushed through things a bit.

Then why not take it from his mind Psychically? Or screen him after he's given information.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:The emperor himself didn't notice him.

Some people have a problem with that as well. A Daemon was hanging around the the most powerful Psykers in the Imperium and are completely unaware of it stirring crap up.

I would say the people who have a problem with that have way too much of an imperial boner, and can't handle anyone being awesome or good at anything if it isn't the emperor or their particular colour of spehss mehreeeeeens.

Don't see me complaining about bloodthirsters being soloed or marine x killing giant daemons. It's a fething story, it's cooler if everyone is cool, not if only your dudes are cool and no one else is allowed to be cool.

TL: DR everyone in the fluff should be cool.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Well maybe the eyewitness they needed alive but on the brink of death was rushed through things a bit.

Then why not take it from his mind Psychically? Or screen him after he's given information.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:The emperor himself didn't notice him.

Some people have a problem with that as well. A Daemon was hanging around the the most powerful Psykers in the Imperium and are completely unaware of it stirring crap up.

Or just ask. A much safer and easier way of doing things.

Well he did go missing the second people turned their back.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I would say the people who have a problem with that have way too much of an imperial boner, and can't handle anyone being awesome or good at anything if it isn't the emperor or their particular colour of spehss mehreeeeeens.

Don't see me complaining about bloodthirsters being soloed or marine x killing giant daemons. It's a fething story, it's cooler if everyone is cool, not if only your dudes are cool and no one else is allowed to be cool.

How judgemental.

I have a bit of a problem with that actually. Daemons in general have been largely relegated to fodder rather than the nightmarish monstrosities they should be. Tyranid big creatures are often scarier than Greater Daemons (except for the occasional one that can destroy a planet). People see things being cool differently. An entire fleet of refugees having to be destroyed because the Changeling is among them? That's fitting. But it shouldn't be running around under the noses of the Grey Knights (in particular) and the Dark Angels (who tend to be kind of paranoid).

pm713 wrote:Or just ask. A much safer and easier way of doing things.

Well he did go missing the second people turned their back.

Depends on just how injured he is I guess.

Which would make people suspicious, no?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I would say the people who have a problem with that have way too much of an imperial boner, and can't handle anyone being awesome or good at anything if it isn't the emperor or their particular colour of spehss mehreeeeeens.

Don't see me complaining about bloodthirsters being soloed or marine x killing giant daemons. It's a fething story, it's cooler if everyone is cool, not if only your dudes are cool and no one else is allowed to be cool.

How judgemental.

I have a bit of a problem with that actually. Daemons in general have been largely relegated to fodder rather than the nightmarish monstrosities they should be. Tyranid big creatures are often scarier than Greater Daemons (except for the occasional one that can destroy a planet). People see things being cool differently. An entire fleet of refugees having to be destroyed because the Changeling is among them? That's fitting. But it shouldn't be running around under the noses of the Grey Knights (in particular) and the Dark Angels (who tend to be kind of paranoid).

pm713 wrote:Or just ask. A much safer and easier way of doing things.

Well he did go missing the second people turned their back.

Depends on just how injured he is I guess.

Which would make people suspicious, no?

What if it is the conniving and convoluted nature of organisations such as the Grey Knights/Inquisition and Dark Angels is actually what makes the changeling so powerful when he is around them?

nareik wrote:
What if it is the conniving and convoluted nature of organisations such as the Grey Knights/Inquisition and Dark Angels is actually what makes the changeling so powerful when he is around them?

That could only even conceivably work in the case of the Dark Angels, where, even though they use psykers to maintain security, they aren't 100% pure distilled daemon-poison like the Grey Knights are. Really, if the Changeling were to simply get too close to a Grey Knight it would probably start to steam or something, it wouldn't work. It's going up against a brick wall of established lore.

The GK aren't blanks. They are immune to Warp Taint, sure, but they, being Psykers themselves, are not immune to psychic effects.

Given the ability of Tzeentch to see the future (but also 'troll' his servants with false visions), it isn't that unlikely that the changeling exactly knows what to do not to get caught. Tzeentch will have seen every probable outcome and will only let the changeling fail when he decides it should fail.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Well maybe the eyewitness they needed alive but on the brink of death was rushed through things a bit.

Then why not take it from his mind Psychically? Or screen him after he's given information.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:The emperor himself didn't notice him.

Some people have a problem with that as well. A Daemon was hanging around the the most powerful Psykers in the Imperium and are completely unaware of it stirring crap up.

There were literally dozens of daemons present during that. The Thousand Sons brought most of them.

 Psienesis wrote:
The GK aren't blanks. They are immune to Warp Taint, sure, but they, being Psykers themselves, are not immune to psychic effects.

But yet at the same time we have entire stories written about the presence of a GK being enough to dispel daemons if they are isolated from the warp and how they are the anathema etc.

 Quickjager wrote:

But yet at the same time we have entire stories written about the presence of a GK being enough to dispel daemons if they are isolated from the warp and how they are the anathema etc.

Wasn't 'The Rock' the site of a giant warp-splosion at some point in it's history?

Only in the case of a warp storm exploding the planet it formerly belonged to.

Well, Lord Inquisitor Doge,

That is an excellent question. As a Doge, you must be aware, that the Wulfen are heresy.

Consequently, it is completely reasonable to exterminatus the entire idea of Wulfen so that the entire idea of furries does not infest the rest of 40k.

I am sure that the Dark Angels will he hailed as heroes on Terra for a millennium for this heroic action.
If not, nobody really asks the Dark Angels questions anyway.

nareik wrote:
What if it is the conniving and convoluted nature of organisations such as the Grey Knights/Inquisition and Dark Angels is actually what makes the changeling so powerful when he is around them?

I think the paranoia and double-checking would be more likely to expose than aid the Changeling. It's unlikely it'd be able to direct such feelings away from itself. Besides that, the Grey Knights aren't conniving or convoluted. They're very straightforward. Kill Daemon, don't leave witnesses to Chaos incursion, move on.

DarknessEternal wrote:There were literally dozens of daemons present during that. The Thousand Sons brought most of them.

Ah yes, forgot about them. Though you'd think the Emperor might have been somewhat more suspicious of the events considering Daemons were accompanying the Thousand Sons. Suppose it makes even more sense he'd be reluctant to believe Magnus about Horus' treachery but still.

You're all forgetting the fact that Azrael was the one who ordered the strikes.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

nareik wrote:
What if it is the conniving and convoluted nature of organisations such as the Grey Knights/Inquisition and Dark Angels is actually what makes the changeling so powerful when he is around them?

I think the paranoia and double-checking would be more likely to expose than aid the Changeling. It's unlikely it'd be able to direct such feelings away from itself. Besides that, the Grey Knights aren't conniving or convoluted. They're very straightforward. Kill Daemon, don't leave witnesses to Chaos incursion, move on.

Okay, maybe conniving and convoluted wasn't the best description for Grey Knights, but when they are involved in a warzone they need to cover up their existence through either having all witnesses killed or mindwiped.

Both chapters have a strong element of deceit (whether covering up their past or their existence entirely) and surely deceit is what gives The Changeling his power?

The Grey Knights sometimes do this - except of course when they don't or can't - see numerous entries in many codex's about survivors of engagements against Daemons, action's alongside the Grey knights, the entire Cadian system etc etc.

Is the truly vast Space Wolf fleet and orbital defences - (multiple Ramilies class starforts manned by ? - I guess a couple of wolves or one really big one) mentioned or just ignored - alongside their fleet?

Wonder if they wake up Bjorn again and get him to tell the Angels to bugger off.

I used to love the Dark Angels fluff - the whole original Deathwing stuff now they just seem like total dicks - and the WOLFYWOLFSpace Wolfs - urgggh.....

Can we just get a warp storm to leave all stuck together in the Fenris System for a few thousand years.

 TedNugent wrote:

Consequently, it is completely reasonable to exterminatus the entire idea of Wulfen so that the entire idea of furries does not infest the rest of 40k.