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 Grimmor wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Electro priests have an invulnerable save, so they're more durable than they look.

But anyway, I can see that nobody else wants Smash for Ogyrns. But one problem with Ogyrns is that they just don't hit hard enough in assault. All those high strength attacks just don't stick, because armor saves blunt them. A friend of mine said that they needed AP:3/AP:2 weapons to matter in assault, which is why I suggested Smash.

I had a think and, what about giving them Rending instead? That way, only a few wounds will be AP:2 rather than all of them, and they might even damage a land raider or dreadnought in assault. Say that sometimes an enraged Ogyrn can literally tear things apart Hulk style. Their description in the codex even references that (tearing a traitor marines head off with their bare hands).

The other things, FNP and increasing the range of Riper Guns to 18" are perfect. Actually, we might even try giving a Ripper Gun an AP of 5, turning it into a proper anti infantry weapon.

Hmmm, Rending could be interesting, though that would need some playtesting to see just how effective it really is.

I think that would work. Might represent them using their sheer strength to rip apart their foes

Again, how on earth are those electropriests even reaching your Ogryns to begin with? They have no transports to protect them.

Also, a min size squad of low initiative models is of course not going to do well against someone hitting them with ID weapons. That is something you have to factor in. Use your Warboss-statline unit and bully those Ork mobs who survived your punishing ranged fire instead.

Or in this case, wipe the electropriests (which your army does with ease) and when your foe desperately tries to take your objective with his kataphron, charge them with your Ogryns and watch them die.

Maybe you are reading a different thread? Because if you have been paying any attention transports are a moot point because ogryns also don't have access to assault tramsports without superheavy fw vehicles. The fact is cult mech armies have canticles that make thier units faster then ogryns ever can be. This means your cheaper faster more offensive unit will cream an ogryn squad. This is ignoring the fact electro priests are also a crappy unit and yet ogryns suck more. Again no one is asking or comparing ogryns to storm shield thunder wolf riders or Wulfen. We are just asking for a good Cc unit from a crappy expensive supposedly dedicated Cc unit.

Secondly I play Orks as well as guard str3 ork mobs blow this edition and your insistence that somehow str5 ap- assault3 at 12in range on a small bs3 unit is punishing range firepower has to be the most niave and sadly reaching for any leverage comment I have ever read. We already went over how bad it was vs an electropriest unit of equal points. That even if you are horrible enough to get within under 12in and fail to charge the ogryns the ogryn player is lucky if he kills 1 unbuffed electropriest.

I'd be fine with rending on ogryns. It's not as powerful as smash and ogryns have enough atks to make it viable.

It is not a moot point because their army has much shorter range than yours. They must come to you, giving you the defender's advantage of timing your attack and pacing your counterattack - a large advantage since it means you are more likely to get the fire + charge combo off.

If you do not want to compare them to the allegedly bad electropriests and not to Wraiths or TWC, what is your standard?

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is not a moot point because their army has much shorter range than yours. They must come to you, giving you the defender's advantage of timing your attack and pacing your counterattack - a large advantage since it means you are more likely to get the fire + charge combo off.

If you do not want to compare them to the allegedly bad electropriests and not to Wraiths or TWC, what is your standard?

You have consistently failed to show how in the world ogryns will ever get a charge off on the faster electropriests and instead insist 12in of ineffectual shooting is somehow massive range advantage. I'm also not comparing better guard units to electro priests I'm comparing ogryns which is the point of the thread. I have no problem with guard firepower or tau firepower or any other non relevant unit. My point is ogryns suck even when you compare them to electro priests which also suck and are rarely used cult mech units. The fact is ogryn units get shot to death Worse then electropriests by any armies shooting. Even the lowly heavy bolter will tear through 9 wounds at t5 with no save of any kind. You have a much better chance at getting an equal point cost unit of electropriest with canticles (either cover or movement) with its 5++ and 5+fnp across the board instead of ogryns. If you have anything else to add other then how your suck unit is just as sucky as my suck unit feel free to go ahead other than that you haven't proved anywhere in this thread how ogryn are a decent unit in any shape or form.

I was running some numbers, and a 5 man Ogyrn unit as it is in the Codex can just about go toe to toe with a 10 man marine assault squad with jump packs, a vet sergeant, 2 Flamers, and a power weapon and combat shield for the sgt. Incidentally, both units cost exactly the same. But this didn't take into account the marines using chapters tactics or combat doctrines, which will probably push things into the marines favour. Vanguard marines however, with their better stats and equipment, destroy Ogyrns. This is why nobody takes Ogyrns. They're slow, mediocre in a fight and far too expensive for what they can reasonably except to achieve. They're only worth it if they can actually a decent threat.

I think somebody said that a unit of Ogyrns should be the IG equivalent of a combat walker or a monstrous creature. And I completely agree with that. Other armies have units that can quickly get into the enemy's ranks and cause problems (drop pod dreadnaughts, flying monstrous creatures etc). We don't have that (tanks don't count because they're very vulnerable to assaults) and it's a major, almost crippling weakness to us. I know forces need weaknesses but only the kind of weaknesses that can be bypassed by clever tactics. Not unfixable weaknesses that simply hinder the armies ability to play. You should lose a game due to bad tactics and bad luck, not because your army is incapable of actually fighting.

So yeah, give Ogyrns and Bulgyrns FNP and Rending for their close combat attacks, increase the range of Ripper Guns to 18" and their AP to 5, change the rules for slab shields to increase toughness when together in addition to the increased armour and cover saves, and make the power maul and brute shield a free upgrade. Now both units actually become a viable choice with a good change of a decent return instead of an expensive and risky gamble.

And you have not told me by what metric they are supposed to be decent. As said, they are a unit of Warbosses who cost significantly less than a Warboss each.

And I will not ignore the Codex they are in. Context matters.

And canticles only last a turn.

How about you shoot both units with an Ion Accelerator and see who emerges the happiest?

The 12" range on the gun is not the problem you say it is. They are a melee unit and, as said, they must come to you. You will get the charge for that reason, since you can premeasure and pace your distance to keep them 18" or so away (assuming they have no move buffs available, if they do just adjust above distance accordingly) at the start of their turn.

Compared to Wraithknights, sure, they are bad. Compared to CSM/Orks/BA/non-Ravenwing DA/Tyranids? Not so much.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
So yeah, give Ogyrns and Bulgyrns FNP and Rending for their close combat attacks, increase the range of Ripper Guns to 18" and their AP to 5, change the rules for slab shields to increase toughness when together in addition to the increased armour and cover saves, and make the power maul and brute shield a free upgrade. Now both units actually become a viable choice with a good change of a decent return instead of an expensive and risky gamble.

The Brute Shield and Power Maul cant be free, its a freaking Power Maul your getting and a 5+ invuln, which combined with their shiny new FnP is pretty damn good. I would agree to dropping the Not!Shred from the Brute Shield in favor of causing D3 HoW hits.

Also a no on the increasing toughness thing with the Slab Shields, thats, thats to much, as they would be as durable as a Carnifex for half the points. Also you need to remember that to get that 3+ armor save you need to be in base contact with the other models, and that makes you template bait. On top of this Slab Shield Bullgryns are supposed to be mobile cover for your guardsmen, and they do that job wonderfully

gungo wrote:
You have consistently failed to show how in the world ogryns will ever get a charge off on the faster electropriests and instead insist 12in of ineffectual shooting is somehow massive range advantage. I'm also not comparing better guard units to electro priests I'm comparing ogryns which is the point of the thread. I have no problem with guard firepower or tau firepower or any other non relevant unit. My point is ogryns suck even when you compare them to electro priests which also suck and are rarely used cult mech units. The fact is ogryn units get shot to death Worse then electropriests by any armies shooting. Even the lowly heavy bolter will tear through 9 wounds at t5 with no save of any kind. You have a much better chance at getting an equal point cost unit of electropriest with canticles (either cover or movement) with its 5++ and 5+fnp across the board instead of ogryns. If you have anything else to add other then how your suck unit is just as sucky as my suck unit feel free to go ahead other than that you haven't proved anywhere in this thread how ogryn are a decent unit in any shape or form.

You are wildly overestimating Electropriests. Firstly, Grenadier gauntlets are blasts, so accuracy is largely irrelevant. Secondly they are only wounding the Bullgryns on a 4+ while the Bullgryns are wounding them on a 2+, and if they happen to have their Power Mauls they are causing ID, so no FnP. Thirdly they are both walking melee units with no Transport so they are in the same freaking boat and there is no Canticle that makes them faster.

If the Bullgryns are either in Base to Base with each other with Slab Shields or have the Brute Shield they are coming out on top because of their significantly increased durability not to mention ignoring the Priests FnP if they have Power Mauls. If the Bullgryns get the charge this is even worse.

Note that i play Ad Mech and i would not throw Electropriests at Bullgryns, cuz i have Kataphrons for that. The Electro Priests would go eat a Guard Squad and get a 3++ and then go eat a few more.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
So yeah, give Ogyrns and Bulgyrns FNP and Rending for their close combat attacks, increase the range of Ripper Guns to 18" and their AP to 5, change the rules for slab shields to increase toughness when together in addition to the increased armour and cover saves, and make the power maul and brute shield a free upgrade. Now both units actually become a viable choice with a good change of a decent return instead of an expensive and risky gamble.

The Brute Shield and Power Maul cant be free, its a freaking Power Maul your getting and a 5+ invuln, which combined with their shiny new FnP is pretty damn good. I would agree to dropping the Not!Shred from the Brute Shield in favor of causing D3 HoW hits.

Also a no on the increasing toughness thing with the Slab Shields, thats, thats to much, as they would be as durable as a Carnifex for half the points. Also you need to remember that to get that 3+ armor save you need to be in base contact with the other models, and that makes you template bait. On top of this Slab Shield Bullgryns are supposed to be mobile cover for your guardsmen, and they do that job wonderfully

gungo wrote:
You have consistently failed to show how in the world ogryns will ever get a charge off on the faster electropriests and instead insist 12in of ineffectual shooting is somehow massive range advantage. I'm also not comparing better guard units to electro priests I'm comparing ogryns which is the point of the thread. I have no problem with guard firepower or tau firepower or any other non relevant unit. My point is ogryns suck even when you compare them to electro priests which also suck and are rarely used cult mech units. The fact is ogryn units get shot to death Worse then electropriests by any armies shooting. Even the lowly heavy bolter will tear through 9 wounds at t5 with no save of any kind. You have a much better chance at getting an equal point cost unit of electropriest with canticles (either cover or movement) with its 5++ and 5+fnp across the board instead of ogryns. If you have anything else to add other then how your suck unit is just as sucky as my suck unit feel free to go ahead other than that you haven't proved anywhere in this thread how ogryn are a decent unit in any shape or form.

You are wildly overestimating Electropriests. Firstly, Grenadier gauntlets are blasts, so accuracy is largely irrelevant. Secondly they are only wounding the Bullgryns on a 4+ while the Bullgryns are wounding them on a 2+, and if they happen to have their Power Mauls they are causing ID, so no FnP. Thirdly they are both walking melee units with no Transport so they are in the same freaking boat and there is no Canticle that makes them faster.

If the Bullgryns are either in Base to Base with each other with Slab Shields or have the Brute Shield they are coming out on top because of their significantly increased durability not to mention ignoring the Priests FnP if they have Power Mauls. If the Bullgryns get the charge this is even worse.

Note that i play Ad Mech and i would not throw Electropriests at Bullgryns, cuz i have Kataphrons for that. The Electro Priests would go eat a Guard Squad and get a 3++ and then go eat a few more.

Let me get this straight a unit that cost 18ppm has a str5 ap4, 5++, 5+fnp (and access to 2+ cover save canticles for up to two turns) suck but a unit with a str7 ap4, 5++ at 60ppm (the cost of the brute shield you are championing) are okay? Math is not your friend!!!
Are you sure you are not biased or just really bad with numbers? (They both have HoW except the ogryn is str5 not str4 and the electro priest which is a cheaper and larger unit hence more HoW hits also ignore charging through cover penalties which this unit loves)

And let's go over this again for you since have this problem with numbers.
To get that 5++ and +2 str ap4 weapon, you lose 3+ sv for a 4+ sv, you lose all range atks, you lose any form of overwatch from Basic ogryns, you lose the cover save benefit for a massive 15pts. This is not generally considered an upgrade and Since you almost never see anyone take the option on bullgryns because it's generally considered worse then the slab shield.

Small blasts on a bs3 unit with no rerolls of any kind suck. You don't see them played often without rerollable scatter for a reason. In fact I have shot my own unit with thier grenade Gaunts because on a sub12in wpn it scatters back onto them!!!! You obviously don't understand bullgryns or how blasts work.

Furthermore you may only be wounding on s 4+
However you are being severly disingenuous and know full well electro priests have zealot and reroll to hit rolls and cause Insta death on a 6 to a multi wound unit. This trumps whatever point you are trying to make because stastically electropriest are still well ahead!!! This is not more durable when they are dying faster. Really math is not your friend!!!

We already went over how bad the powermaul version of the bullgryn is claiming now that this 60ppm version is somehow slightly better then your 18ppm version (which comes with a better ID version of the powermaul as standard) because it can finally ignore fnp still doesn't change the fact the electropriests still have a 5++ (maybe even a 3++), a possible cover save, and fnp to everything not str6+.

Why in the world would you take slab shield bullgryn and not keep them base to base? They are still better. Yes you are more susceptible to blasts. Woohoo thanks for pointing out more detriments to bullgryn?

I have never said electropriests are a good unit kataphrons are better. However electropriests are still better then ogryns/bullgryns. Which suck hence the point of this thread!!!

gungo wrote:
Are you sure you are not biased or just really bad with numbers?

gungo wrote:
And let's go over this again for you since have this problem with numbers.

gungo wrote:
You obviously don't understand bullgryns or how blasts work.

gungo wrote:
Really math is not your friend!!!

Tone it down, friend. It's just a, well, game.

Do you know why the Electro-Priests struggle with Ogryns?

Because they have to come to you and your gunline to do their damage, you can stagger the distances to your favour. Place yourself 18" away from them at the end of your turn (easy to do - they will be moving toward you as quickly as possible, while you can adjust your own distance up to 6+d6" in any direction each turn). They have a 6" move, so they must make a 12" charge; highly unlikely, especially with Overwatch factored in.

Now, in your turn, they are 12" away. Move 6" forward. They are now 6" away, a charge you are highly likely to make. Not only that, they are also in perfect shooting range, so your Ogryns gun down 4 (5++, no FNP) or 2,71 (5++, FNP) before the fight even starts. Now you are free to charge the survivors. Ow ow ow.

Given that these little T3 models first have to weather whatever other pieces of your army sees fit to shoot at them while they slowly walk up towards you does not help the fragile electropriests. Nothing exists in a vacuum, after all, and T3 models make for easy targets for plenty of IG units. One Eradicator shell should kill most priests it hits, for example, between ignoring cover and IDing out FNP, while the Cult Mechanicus lacks S10 to do the same to your Ogryns. I mean, they have gravcannons, but gravcannons are not really ideal against Ogryns.

And we're talking a unit with ID weapons here. They are like tailor-made for killing Ogryns in combat. Want to see how Khorne Berzerkers fare in the same situation? Or Ork Nobz?

Your numbers are completely off.
A min squad of ogryns that cost 130pts.
The equivilant to ~8 electropriests.
The ogryns have an assault3 12in wpn.
They have a bs3 so even if the ogryns are able to dance around that 12in range doing the cha cha around the board.
9 shots hitting on a 4+ is only 4.5 hits. Out of those str5 needs a 2+ to wound. This is 3.75 wounds. This is before your electropriests take thier (2+ cover save from canticles but let's ignore that for now)(let's also ignore the fact the electropriest may already be 3++ as well) let's take thier 5++ instead. That's 2.5 wounds through thier invul not 4 and now take thier 5+fnp since str5 is impossible to ID toughness 3. That's 1.67 (again not 2.7) wounds that get through if you have no cover because decide canticles are for losers and you refuse to use them and you decide to run your priests across the board to the slowest cc unit in the game instead. Btw the above numbers are even sadder looking once you talk about overwatch!!!! So your comment about that is an absolute joke. (Let's ignore the fact that one of the three only ways to field electropriests gives them crusader, the other let's then use shrouded and stealth for two turns, and the third well is the cult mech wd list that is min ad mech and mostly skitari units because of free upgrades and no gets hot and stacking canticles with skitari orders.

Also everything you mentioned regarding dancing ogryns and moving across the board with cc unit is the same exact thing ogryns deal with except ogryns don't have a save vs anything or any movement buffs. Feel free to do the cha cha with your electropriests and see how well that works. Ogyrns have no fnp, they have no armour that works vs anything except lasguns. They have no invul, they have no cover. And cult mechanicus is just as lethal at shooting as IG if not much worse. You complain how eradicate shells can kill several electropriest and fail to realize you don't kill ogryn with str10 wpn you use several heavy bolters or better anti infantry wpns that will decimate a squad of ogryn. You are comparing 18pt models to 40pt models and the 18pt models will always win the head to head fight with the 40pt model. Do that math yourself anyway you look at it ~8 electorpriest will kill 3 ogryns regardless if the ogryns charge first or not. The electropriests still win that combat. Your suck unit is still better then my suck unit, congrats!!!

I have no idea what your point is ork nobs decimate ogryns worse then electropriests. Khorne beserker staight out of the codex suck and I don't see anyone playing them that way regardless.

3 elite ork meganobs cost 120pts (with that 10pt difference take str5ap4 skorchas they only make the meganobs better)
3 elite ogryns cost 130pts

The meganobs are bs 2 and have a twinlinked 18in str4ap6 assault2 wpn
Ogryns are bs3 haves str5 ap- 12in assault3 wpn.
Orks have 2+ armour 2wounds at toughness 4
Ogryns 5+ armour 3w at toughness 5
Ogryns have 3 atks at int2 and str5 ap-
Ork meganobs 3atks at int1(3 base)and str8-9 ap2
Orks not only have access to a fast assault vehicles (both large and small) but they can move, run, charge and can reroll a charge die. They are also only bulky and not very bulky.
Ogryns are a base 6in move and random 2d6 charge. That's the extent of thier movement.
Orks are ld7 with Mob rules or several ways to get fearless and fnp.
Ogryns are ld7 stubborn and require a 25pt priest for zealot or a massive formation for fearless.

Feel free to do the math Orks will always win whether they charge or get charged. Which the ogryns are lucky to do because the meganobs are significantly faster. In nearly every way ork meganobs are better and while they are a good unit meganobs are also not even near the best Cc units in game.

We can keep playing this game all day if you like because the bottom line is ogryns are an overpriced and ineffectual Cc unit that doesn't have a role in the game. Feel free to bring out other dedicated CC units and point for point ogryns will nearly always lose. Necron wraith, eldar banshees, harlequins, dark eldar humonculus, any space marine terminator, even the crappy tyranid warrior wins vs Ogyrns ....Yup they all kill ogryns point for point. Im not saying there isn't a worse dedicated cc unit out there however ogryns are pretty freakin awful.

I assumed a 5 squad of Ogryns, because why would you only take 3?

Small squads of low-initiative units does not do well. See Terminators. 3 Terminators, even Hammernators who manage to get into combat, would not get anything done.

Not sure why you assume 3. 3 Tyranid Warriors or Nobz are not going to get much work done either.

Positioning is also not 'dancing'. You are not supposed to kite the electropriests. That is not their job.

Cult Mechanicus has a lot of firepower but none of it is as long range as yours. Thus, they must come to you.

Ogryns are counter-assault units, not units intended to run across the board and attack themselves.

Yes, Tau exists, but Tau are pretty dumb so let's not use them as a standard for anything.

IOW just try to pick a bigger squad.

My suggestion: Drop to W2 and significantly drop their price. Now you have a unit that is much cheaper for no loss of attack power.

The numberss of ogryn hardly matter because the more ogryn you add the higher your inflated point cost becomes and the more electropriests you can field for the same equivilant cost.

But there is many reasons why you field 3 Ogryns
That's the min size unit.
There is only 3 models per box.
The point cost is ridiculously high
You can only fit 3 ogryns and a priest in a taurox or chimera.
It's hard to hide more then 3 ogryns out of line of sight or leave a slow cc unit in the open to give your opponent a free first blood.

If you are going to spend the 210 points on a squad of 5 ogryns you might as well take the rampart detachment at almost 3 times the cost and have 2x fearless bullgryn units instead of allowing them to break and run off the board like ogryn usually do. (oh wait electropriests don't worry about that either)

Positioning is not dancing but sitting in the open waiting for someone to get within your 12in range with a unit that dies to a nearly every range wpn in game is poor playing.

You keep pretending cult mech is a short range army. Again your either being disingenuous or just just plain deceitful. Cult mech at worst is a mid range army that does fine in shooting the majority of which whose range wpns shoot from 24-36in. (Hint this is massively over 12in ogryn shooting you keep championing)
Yes this may require you to move 6in with a majority relentless army to catch that scared unit hugging the back edge of thier deployment zone however this is why nearly every cult mech player uses the shrouded and stealth canticle the first and usually second turn for a 2+ cover save in area terrain for the majority of thier army.

I play Orks as well I don't know why you keep saying 3x nobs for 54pts will die to a 130pt ogryn squad. Thank you captain obvious!!! No one takes basic unarmed nobs not even in a boys squad. This is why thier datasheet has upgrade options. You either give them warbikes and powerklaws or better yet give them mega armour. Either way both those varients will make short work of ogryns. With the mega nob option being the most comparable hence why I wrote that huge comparison above showing you how utterly ineffectual ogryns are vs mega nobs.

My suggestion? You don't have a clue what your talking about!!! Fnp and rending as several other players mentioned and a change in the brute shield or powermaul price to make ogryns comparable to other armies good cc units.

All units need a purpose. If they don't have one, or can't do their purpose well, then there's no point in that unit. It might as well not exist. To use another thread as an example, Tank Bustas are a ranged anti tank unit in an army that primarily relies upon melee for that. So it has a purpose. Arguably it doesn't do it well but it's there.

What do Ogyrns do? They aren't objective securing. They can't provide decent firepower as their guns are too short ranged and lack AP. They're an average melee unit (about the equivalent of a Marine tactical squad). They aren't that tough, as they have a poor save.

What about Bulgyrns? Again, they aren't objective securing. They really can't provide decent firepower, as they either don't have guns or their guns are rubbish. Again they're an average melee unit (no MEQ killing power, average saves). They're prohibitively expensive. And again, they aren't that tough. Plasma guns, a lot of psychic powers, grav weapons etc laugh at their shield wall.

If all of them had FNP (even a 6+ one?), then they would actually be a tough unit worth their cost. Or, if you don't want to give them FNP, reduce their cost so that the player can take more. Either way, make them able to survive more than two turns of shooting.

To me Ogyrns would work best as a mid range shooty unit with some melee capabilities. A counter attack unit. They can stand with a gun line, contributing to the firepower and launching counter attacks against enemy units that get into said gunline. So increase the range of the ripper guns and give them an AP to help with that. Now they have a purpose. Tough Fire support. Literally just a bigger infantry squad.

If the shield wall was more effective it would make those Bulgyrns have a purpose too. To help the otherwise vulnerable IG units move forward, and an expensive way for the IG to get some armor saves for once. Hence why I suggested that we take a leaf out of the DA's book and increase the toughness to help them survive against big guns. If it takes a point increase then so be it.

And if Ogyrns were made better at assault, then the power maul Bulgyrns would have a purpose too. A straight up melee attack unit. Just try to get them into combat to fight the enemy like so many other units in 40k. The only unit in the whole IG force that can try to do this effectively. So there's it's purpose.

Since Smash is OP (I realize that now), a 'diet' version is in order. When Ogyrns (all kinds) are locked in combat, any To Wound rolls of 6 are AP 2. Now they're a threat to MEQs. Call it Titanic Might, since Papa Smurf doesn't have that anymore. Or just say that their CC attacks have rending.

Give them all FNP (even a 6+ version).

Here's another idea. If Slab Shields boost toughness as well as the armor and cover saves, why not make them the purchasable option, and the power maul and brute shield combo the cheaper standard option? Since Slab Bulgyrns are more 'strategic' due to the cover saves maybe it makes sense if they're the more expensive ones.

Price suggestions:

Ogyrns: 20pts each. Power Maul Bulgyrns: 30pts each. Slab Shield Bulgyrns: 40pts each. Bone Heads are an extra 10pts.

Those prices are too low for all of the stuff you just gave them, especially with Slab Shield Bullgryns being T6 with FnP (thats kinda a bit deal) Better way to look at it:

All Bullgryn cost 50pts and get FnP 5+ and Rending on their Melee attacks

Slab Shield Bullgryn: Slab Shields increase their Armor Save to 3+, Toughness increases to 6, the Grenadieer Gauntlet becomes S5 AP 5 Assault 2, Pinning

Brute Shield Bullgryn: The Brute Shield now causes D3 Hammer of Wrath hits instead of Not!Shred

Reasoning: The 5pts cost increase is because i was in favor of leaving Bullgryns alone and dropping their price by 10 points,. Since they are now getting a bunch of stuff they actually are worth those points plus some.

The Slab Shield Bullgryn no longer have to be in Base to Base because it was dumb and added needless complexity, plus that shield is huge. The gun has been changed because small blasts suck and Pinning helps the Bullgryns out (when it works)

The Brute Bullgryns just cause more HoW hits, which is a big deal as it helps them deal with Invisible units as well as giving them free shots at I 10. On top of this they are now chucking a bunch of S 7 AP 4 Rending hits, which is a very big deal.

And now for their ride

The Bullgryn Carrier (Open Topped) 50pts
Av 12/11/11 HP 3

Transport Capacity 16 Models

Access Points: Open Topped

Wargear
Smoke Launchers
Dozer Blade
2 Suppression Launchers
Assault Ramp

Suppression Launchers Range 18" S 5 AP 5 Assault 2 Pinning
Assault Ramp: Models disembarking from the Bullgryn Carrier add 2" to their disembarkation distance

Now Bullgrns can move around the battlefield quickly and they have room for an attached IC.

As for Ogryns.... Really once Bullgryns came out they didnt have much of a role as "Being Cheaper than Bullgryns" isn't much of an incentive.

50 pts for a bullgryn with remding and fnp is fine.

Ogryn instead of casting them out into the scrap pile are fine as a cheap no armour alternative with a 18in assault weapon. They will be fine at 40pts with remding and fnp and 5+ armour

Brute shield version will suck at 65pts. It's so not worth it. D3 HoW str5 ap- is awful even on invis units.

gungo wrote:
50 pts for a bullgryn with remding and fnp is fine.

Ogryn instead of casting them out into the scrap pile are fine as a cheap no armour alternative with a 18in assault weapon. They will be fine at 40pts with remding and fnp and 5+ armour

Brute shield version will suck at 65pts. It's so not worth it. D3 HoW str5 ap- is awful even on invis units.

Its why i said All Bullgryns, with the Buff to Slab Shields they are now even with Brute Shields, so they cost the same. ie 50pts.

I've had a long think about it, and I have this idea for standard Ogyrns:

Reduce the price of them to 20pts each (30 for the bone head). This makes them a relatively cheap and spamable unit. Then increase the range of their Ripper Guns to 24". I know what you're thinking, but the way I see it, since they're so slow and not really that tough anyway, why not give them the reach to strike out at units from a reasonable difference? They still have an average BS, no AP (that's the only way I can justify doubling the range of the gun) and trouble understanding orders, so they aren't overly powerful. I'm still open to giving them Feel No Pain but it's dropped from my definitely must do list. And I like the idea of most of the IGs weaponry having a theme of high rates of fire but low AP.

They should get the price drop because they aren't that tough and to be honest, I strongly believe that with a few exceptions, all IG units should be comparitively weak to other armies units but outnumber them at least 3:1. Except for Orks and Nids, who should have a similar theme but with a focus on combat rather than shooting.

I can justify it because the ripper guns on the new plastics look more like a machine gun than a shotgun. Hell, Norks' weapon looks like an oversized tommy gun.

20 points, FnP and a free AP2 axe for the bonehead. Oh, and krak grenades. This will let them be taken once in a while for fun.

 triplegrim wrote:
20 points, FnP and a free AP2 axe for the bonehead. Oh, and krak grenades. This will let them be taken once in a while for fun.

If they dont have assault grenades, give them assault grenades. Also dont make it have to be an axe, just let the Bone 'ead have a Power Weapon, i dont think thats a huge deal as hes freakin 10 points.

Otherwise just give them the standard FnP and Rending we did for the Bullgryns. The 24" gun lets them sit on objectives in cover and be really annoying to move

Yes! Now they have a purpose!

So FNP, rending on their CC attacks, double the range of the guns and...yes or to the points decrease? I think they need to be reasonably cheap.

I have a suggestion for a revised ogyrn auxilia formation too:

1 PCS
2-5 of any combination of ogyrn and bulgyrn units.

Special rules:

Undying loyalty: units of ogyrns and bulgyrns from this formation within 12" of the platoon commander from this formation have the Fearless special rule.

Ground shaking charge: units from this formation who launch an assault against an enemy unit locked in combat gain the furious charge special rule, and their hammer of wrath attacks are resolved at strength 6.

In my humble opinion, the fix is simple.
1. Lower their cost.
Or 2. Make them worth their points.

To so the ladder, give them FnP 5+ , move through cover and stubborn.
To hit roll of 6 adds another hit. To wound roll of 6 is ap1. (this emulates them ripping something apart or crushing it like a bug.)

Need to be bulky instead of very bulky.

If an 8 foot astartes in power armour isn't bulky, Ogryn are not very bulky.