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I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that Ogyrns are grossly overpriced for how they perform. GW must have thought that having a high toughness and lots of wounds makes you invulnerable, but without decent armor both of those things don't mean anything. Most weapons in the game completely ignore normal Ogyrns saves, whilst there's plenty of weapons that can put the hurt onto Bulgyrns.

Then there's the inescapable truth that Ogyrns aren't even that good in assault, despite being assault troops. Sure, against some units they'll do OK, but real assault troops will easily make short work out of them. Add in the fact that you can't fit many of them into transports, and they have terrible leadership, and it's easy to see why nobody bothers with them.

But despite all that, I am actually happy with their rules as they are. Their stats and abilities are just fine in my opinion. It's just their price that needs fixed.

So, here's my suggestion:

Drop the price of normal Ogyrns to 20pts each, whilst the Bone Head is 30pts. So now a basic squad is 70pts. Add another one, and give them a Chimera, and they'll cost 155pts. About the same as a unit of Plasma Vets in a Chimera, and probably just as effective, albeit in a different way. Taking a full sized unit of them will now come in at 210pts. A nice big bullet sponge that won't break the bank.

Meanwhile, Bulgyrns are now 30pts each, whilst the Bone Head is 40pts. So now a basic squad is 100pts, whilst giving them Power Mauls and Brute Shields will come in at their current price of 145pts. Since they can now withstand small arms fire, I think that's fair. Just one more thing though, to make the Shield Wall a viable tactic:

Slab Shields add +1 to their users armor save, and models receiving a cover save from the ogyrn add 1 to their cover saves. If a model with a slab shield is in base to base contact with at least two other models in the same unit who are also armed with Slab Shields, it adds 1 to it's toughness. Yes, totally ripped off from Dark Angels but it makes sense to me. And it stops the squad being instantly wiped out by a demolisher cannon. And they will be the ultimate stone wall...able to take it but can't dish it out, because Grenadier Gauntlets are weak.

Thoughts?

I think the inherent issue with Ogryn is even with a steep price drop like you've suggested is that they still don't really fit the counter-assault niche they're intended to be. Chimeras limit their model count significantly while also not being an assault vehicle meaning you're stuck there wasting a turn shooting ripper guns/twiddling their thumbs while things like TWC or Wraiths are running amok. It also doesn't help that even at 20 points they get shot to pieces too easily even with T5 and 3 wounds. I try using normal nobz in my games occasionally and let me tell you that without 'eavy armour and a Painboy attached that they are too easily removed for their points cost, even with assault transport options like trukks or battlewagons that the Ogryns lack. Biker Nobz are only palatable because of their speed and ability to jink and take weapons that let them do something in combat. None of which Ogryns can do sadly.

IMO, normal Ogryn need decent enough damage output alongside reasonable toughness to warrant considering them in an army when you can just take more guns. Lowering the points cost helps but doesn't address the core issues. Therefore, they should have at least FNP built in to deal with small arms fire and either rending on their ripper guns for shooting or in close combat. I think 30 ppm is reasonable for that.

Bullgryn get to be 35 ppm, since they also get FNP built in and having a power maul + brute shield combo makes them 55 ppm. Keep the shield wall thing you have from before and you have a solid counter-assault unit.

Add a rule for Ogryn being able to assault the turn they get out of a chimera as a result of their claustrophobia, but that it counts as a disordered charge if they do so.

What would really solve this problem is if they made a smaller version of the Gorgan:



A non super heavy version of this thing, transport capacity of 20-30, would be perfect. Yes it's a lot like a Land Raider, but I think it's an option.

Oh totally, don't get me wrong, a big part of it is just that IG doesn't have a mass transport that you can assault out of. If GW ever got off their collective asses and did something like that (and fix rough riders or put them out of their misery in the process) it would be great.

A simple price drop won't cut it as the cost isn't the only issue with the big oafs. They're a relic of when Warhammer 40k was "warhammer IN SPACE". Generally all multi-wound, non monstrous creatures are as they're built on the template of the "monstrous infantry" of Warhammer Fantasy, but without Fantasy's rules about modifying armor saves (specifically strength higher than 3 start lowering the enemy's save), the Ogryns cannot accomplish what they're suppose to do; be the hammer. However the only way to solve THAT is to change the game system, so that ain't an option.

I think I proposed a few Ogryn changes in another thread but basically summed it up as "give them something that can ignore certain types of armor and make the ripper gun not crap at killing things" would be a better solution.

That's it isn't it? They're a relic from the days when being strength 5 meant being able to bypass some armour all together and put a dent through power armor.

OK, what if Ogyrns had Smash? AP:2 melee hits and the ability to make 1 strength 10 attack in place of the normal ones?

Ogryns are bad, Bullgryns are actually pretty solid, though a 10 point cost drop would make them a far more viable choice.

If we gave all Ogyrns Smash and Feel No Pain, would it still be possible to justify a large points reduction?

Say, 20pts for normal Ogyrns (30 for the Bone Head), and 30pts for Bulgyns (40 for the Bone Head)?

Also, should we increase the range of Ripper Guns to 18" or possibly even more? I know that traditionally they were seen as huge shotguns, but the new plastic ones could pass as huge sub-machine gun type things. It would make them even more useful and puts a clear distinction between ordinary Ogyrns and the Bulgyrns.

So, I just checked out the Ogryn stats.

They are a melee unit with a short range gun and no actual melee weapons, unless you take bullgryns and decide to upgrade to a melee weapon.

...

...

I don't get it.

This unit sounds completely pointless.

Give all ogryns/bullgryns fnp 5+
Give ogryns/bullgryns the the thunderous headbutt atk that nork deddog has but ap2.
Give all ogryns carapace armour 4+
Slab shields should add +1 armour and when adjacent to another slab shield +1 toughness and +1 cover for models behind them.
Make ogryns and bullgryns bulky again.
Make ripper gun 18in
Make the power maul and brute shield a free upgrade over the bullgryn with slab shield and grenade gaunt.
Bring back furious charge.

Keep points the same because now you have a unit worth the points.
T6 3w 3+ 5+ fnp with grenade guant and a single str9 ap2 atk or 4x str6 ap- on the charge atk or take a power maul and brute shield for 4x (5x on bonehead) str8 ap3 on the charge with t5 3w 4+ 5++ 5+Fnp

You likely will just see players take bullgryns with slab shields for an extremely durable unit with a ton of ap- atks with a bonehead with a power maul to eat up ap3 units. Regardless all the units now have a small chance to hurt tougher units.

Yes, at present, Ogyrns are utterly pointless, which is why no one takes them.

gungo wrote:Give all ogryns/bullgryns fnp 5+

Absolutely.

gungo wrote:Give ogryns/bullgryns the the thunderous headbutt atk that nork deddog has but ap2.

Smash is better (higher strength, lower AP, and re-roll armor penetration). In fact, it would be better to simply change Thunderous Headbutt to 'Nork's Smash Attack has the Concussive Special Rule'.

gungo wrote:Give all ogryns carapace armour 4+

I would prefer to keep Carapace to Bulgyrns only. Just to create a distinction between the two units.

gungo wrote:Slab shields should add +1 armour and when adjacent to another slab shield +1 toughness and +1 cover for models behind them.

Again, absolutely. I proposed that myself earlier.

gungo wrote:Make ogryns and bullgryns bulky again.

Due to their size and wound count, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

gungo wrote:Make ripper gun 18in

Yes, absolutely. Now Ogyrns are a tough mid range shooty unit.

gungo wrote:Make the power maul and brute shield a free upgrade over the bullgryn with slab shield and grenade gaunt.

That's a good idea. Having the same price for both options means it becomes a matter of tactics rather than price.

gungo wrote:Bring back furious charge.

Maybe.

With all these changes, I'd feel better about paying their current cost, since now they can actually do what they're supposed to do.

My proposals for Ogryn/Bulgryn:

Ogryn need to add a laspistol and close combat weapon their wargear. They gain rage and furious charge.

Reduce strength and toughness by one on the statline. Reduce to 1 wound per model

New points cost: 10 ppm.

One model may replace the ripper gun with a flamer for free.

Bullgryn:

Both the slab shield and the grenade gauntlet need to count as close combat weapons. Again, rage and furious charge. The brute shield needs to retain the special rules of the slab shield and count as a slab shield for all rules intents and purposes (in addition to its own additional rules).

Reduce strength and toughness by one on the statline. Reduce to 1 wound per model.

New cost: 13 ppm.

One further edit:

Ogryn/Bulgryn may count either as an elites or troops selection for FoC purposes.

I'm sorry Traditio but I can't support any of those ideas, except for the furious charge and rage one and even that is pushing it. They just fly in the face of the fluff and sense too.

Smash is op on an ogryn because it makes all their cc atks ap2 thunderous headbutt from nork is simply a trade off of all thier atks for a single ap3 (I propose ap2) atk with +3 str. This will make ogryns have a single ap2 atk at str8 or str 9 with furious charge.

Doing what I said above gives ogryns 3 distinct builds.
Ogryn with ripper gun a weak mid range durable but with only 5+ armour and a bunch of ap- str6 on the charge atks that kill hoard type units for cheap 40pts.
The bullgryn with slab and gauntlet for close range firepower and more durability with 3+ armour and a bunch of ap- hoard style Atks for 45pts.
Or bullgryn with no range ability 4+ armour 5++ and str8 ap3 atks for anti marine style attacks for 45pts.
All of which can forgo thier multiple 4-5x atks per model for a single str9 ap2 atk.

You would likely see players just take a full squad of slab shields with a bonead with power maul for anti ap3 cc atks.

The reason I want furious charge back is it puts ogryns at a cusp where basic ogryns are only str5 and can't ID toughness 3 or hurt av12 and the power maul is only str7 and can't ID toughness 4 or hurt av14. ogryns shouldn't be anti vehicle units the guard has a ton of those they should be anti monsterous creatures or GMC and a Cc unit that can hurt Other cc dedicated units without the use of range or much mobility.

Seriously terminators are only bulky and just as big as ogryns. Ogryns are smaller then centurions. However if everything else I said was changed I would work around very bulky. The stormlord is always an option and a 3 man taurox ogryn missile is a consideration.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm sorry Traditio but I can't support any of those ideas, except for the furious charge and rage one and even that is pushing it. They just fly in the face of the fluff and sense too.

From what I can understand in the fluff, they are, essentially, genetically altered super soldiers. Except the subjects of genetic alteration are basically human version of orks. They're a really feral/stupid version of space marines.

They're ork/space marine wanna bes.

They should basically be like blood angels assault marines or death company, but not quite as good.

They aren't genetically altered super soldiers. They're the degenerate mutant decendents of humans from high gravity death worlds. The fluff has said that it was evolution (or devolution) spurred on by the environment that created them, not any scientific experiments. They're also as big to a space marine as a space marine is to a normal human.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
They aren't genetically altered super soldiers. They're the degenerate mutant decendents of humans from high gravity death worlds. The fluff has said that it was evolution (or devolution) spurred on by the environment that created them, not any scientific experiments. They're also as big to a space marine as a space marine is to a normal human.

Alternative proposal:

They gain rage and furious charge.

Reduce to 2 wounds per model. Add one attack to the statline.

New points cost: 24 ppm.

Bullgryn:

Both the slab shield and the grenade gauntlet need to count as close combat weapons. Again, rage and furious charge. The brute shield needs to retain the special rules of the slab shield and count as a slab shield for all rules intents and purposes (in addition to its own additional rules).

Reduce to 2 wounds per model. Add one attack to the statline.

New cost: 32 ppm.

At 20 ppm they seem WAY too strong, just compare to a Tyranid Warrior. As it is, they are a whole unit of Warbosses and while they are vulnerable to s10, once in combat they are incredibly daunting obstacles to anything less than a Dreadnought. They are essentially Chaos Spawn that trade speed for armor and firepower and that alone makes them better fighters than almost all of the CSM and Tyranid codices.

Of course they die to Wraithknights easily but so does 75% of 40k.

Ogryns, like Terminators, are victims of a game that has changed to the point where their concept pretty much does not work.

Giving them AP2 attacks and whatnot like what people are suggesting seems very unwise. The game does not need more AP2.

Traditio wrote:

Alternative proposal:

They gain rage and furious charge.

Reduce to 2 wounds per model. Add one attack to the statline.

New points cost: 24 ppm.

These don't fix the fundamental problem with Ogyrns, which is the fact that they aren't actually that tough and don't inflict that much damage either. Taking away wounds from them won't help with that. They only wear flak armour which is easily bypassed, and most weapons will wound them on a 5+. Considering that they are short ranged, are usually taken in small numbers and have no easy to access assault vehicles they will take a heavy pounding from shooting. Meanwhile, giving them a tonne of attacks won't make a difference if they can't make them stick. Armour saves will blunt their impact. With bulgyrns, grenadier gauntlets are weak weapons, whilst the power maul equiped ones, whilst decent enough in assault, are still too expensive to justify taking.

And remember too that Ogyrns have very poor Initative. Almost everything will strike before them. Proper assault units will probably kill most of them before they raise a fist and thus win the fight. By giving them Feel No Pain, they'll finally be as tough as their price warrants, and giving them Smash means that they'll hit like a human with a power axe unless they go for the one big attack.

And I don't think brute shields should have the same effect as slab shields. A brute shield is a buckler that just about covers the bulgyrns forearm, whilst a slad shield is a tower shield that covers his entire body. How could they have the same effect?

However I do think that the power maul and brute shield should be a free upgrade though. Bulgyrns are expensive enough as it is. It should be a question of perfered tactics, not price, that decides how you equip them in my opinion.

Even with Smash and Feel No Pain, a Ogyrn or Bulgyrn unit in a transport is going to cost you nearly 200pts or more. That's a big investment for a small unit that's not guaranteed to work.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
giving them Smash means that they'll hit like a human with a power axe unless they go for the one big attack.

No, it will let them hit like a Marine with a power axe, and at better initiative as well.

Giving them smash seems like a terrible idea.

My bad, I got that wrong. But I still stand by giving Smash to Ogyrns. The fact is, against the likes of Electro priests for example, most of the Ogyrns will be dead before they can strike. We need to make sure that the 1-2 who do strike actually inflict some damage before they go down.

But that is a situation that will not happen. The electropriests are expensive melee infantry with T3 5++ and no transports. They will never reach your ogryns, hell, your ogryns alone can probably wipe them with shooting.

 Ashiraya wrote:
But that is a situation that will not happen. The electropriests are expensive melee infantry with T3 5++ and no transports. They will never reach your ogryns, hell, your ogryns alone can probably wipe them with shooting.

Also, the ElectroPriests need to cause enough wounds to wipe the unit, which is a lot btw.

Also the Brute Shield/Maul shouldnt be a free swap out, because you are giving them a Power Maul and a 5++, thats totally worth 15 points. I will agree that upgrading the Range on Ripper guns and the Grenade Launchers is a good plan. Also FnP seems fitting.

Smash is a big no no, thats way to good on a unit like this, and besides Bullgryns and Ogryns are meant for smashing Light and Medium infantry, and they are good at that. Ogryns issues is that the Imperium apparently lost all of their Assault Transports that arent freaking huge, so i think a Ogryn/Bullgryn Assault Truck or something would help as well as dropping their cost 10 points.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
But that is a situation that will not happen. The electropriests are expensive melee infantry with T3 5++ and no transports. They will never reach your ogryns, hell, your ogryns alone can probably wipe them with shooting.

Also, the ElectroPriests need to cause enough wounds to wipe the unit, which is a lot btw.

Also the Brute Shield/Maul shouldnt be a free swap out, because you are giving them a Power Maul and a 5++, thats totally worth 15 points. I will agree that upgrading the Range on Ripper guns and the Grenade Launchers is a good plan. Also FnP seems fitting.

Smash is a big no no, thats way to good on a unit like this, and besides Bullgryns and Ogryns are meant for smashing Light and Medium infantry, and they are good at that. Ogryns issues is that the Imperium apparently lost all of their Assault Transports that arent freaking huge, so i think a Ogryn/Bullgryn Assault Truck or something would help as well as dropping their cost 10 points.

The elector priest need to cause 9 wounds on a t5 unit with no armour save vs electro priest that's not exactly hard. They also need to somehow not get shot to death by a range 12in wpn that's str 5 ap-. Honestly if electro priest get shot to death by ogryn it's more your fault. And electropriest are not exactly good units without canticles protecting them or giving them speed. These are not storm shield wolf riders or Wulfen we are comparing ogryn/bullgryn too.

You gain a power maul which is +2 str and ap4 and a brute shield which is 5++.
However you lose all range atks and thus overwatch and your armour goes from a 3+ to 4+ and you lose the cover save benefit. That's not worth 15pts at all. In fact I've never seen bullgryns used as a power maul version beyond the token bonead which makes your entire opinion not actually true.

I don't think giving ogryns smash is a good idea because it makes all ogryns atks ap2 which is to much considering they have 4/5 atks each. However an ap2 thunderous headbutt which is a trade off of all 4/5 atks for a single ap2 atk is a good idea on a Cc unit that lacks any form of combative offense. Remember ogryns/bullgryns have ap- weapons making them nearly useless in combat.

As I said before ripper gun only range increase gives basic ogryns a nice mid range (is 18in really mid range?) and a lot of ap- atks for cheap.
Bullgryns get increase armour save from 5+ to 3+ and a shorter range wpn. Even though it's a small blast and useless in overwatch.
Bullgryns with powermaul finally get ap4 atks but goes to 4+ save and gain 5++ and lose all range atks.

Without changes ogryns are a slow cc unit without any real cc offense and poor defense. Yes they have wounds and toughness but they are equivilant to an AV 10 vehicle with 3 hull points. They die quickly to small arms fire.

Guard don't need anti tank melee units, ogryns shouldnt be fast melee units (that's what rough riders should be). But they are suppose to be tough melee units that can hurt most mc and gmc. Ogryn squads are the guard equivilant of other armies MCs.

Give ogryns 5+ fnp which makes them a bit more durable to small arms fire but still Insta death them from str 10 wpns.
Give ripper guns 18in so basic ogryns are not competely useless.
Give all ogryns and bullgryns a str+3 ap2 thunderous headbutt because smash is to overpowered making all ogryns and bullgryns atks ap2 and reroll armour penetration.
I would also like furious charge back simply because I still finds base str5 atks or upgraded str 7 ap4 powermaul atks and a single str8 ap2 thunderous headbutt sad offense on a dedicated melee unit.
Remember these are 45pt models that's not exactly cheap nor should bullgryns be cheap. Lowering thier point cost still doesn't make them good units because they have no current role. The imperium still has assault transports that hold ogryn this won't fix them either. The stormlord is usable by all, forgeworld is widely excepted now, chimeras still hold a squad of 3 bullgryn and priest and yet ogryns still suck. Bigger transports will not fix anything wrong with bullgryns/ogryns.

Bullgryns cant fire over-watch because their Grenadier Gauntlets are Blast weapons, so thats a moot point. Also 3+ isnt worth a whole hell of a lot anymore and the main reason people dont use Bullgryns is because they cant get them into melee, if you can get them there, they can wreck.

Also Power Mauls are AP 4 and the Brute Shield gives you Shred on your HoW attacks, these are all not nothing. On top of this i have never, ever, heard anyone assert that Bullgryns should be fighting MCs, because thats crazy. Now can a 5+ man squad drag down a Carnifex? Yes, but that isn't what they are for, cuz you have Tanks for that. Bullgryns and Ogryns are for mulching infantry, and they are very good at that, if they can get there.

gungo wrote:
Remember these are 45pt models that's not exactly cheap nor should bullgryns be cheap. Lowering thier point cost still doesn't make them good units because they have no current role. The imperium still has assault transports that hold ogryn this won't fix them either. The stormlord is usable by all, forgeworld is widely excepted now, chimeras still hold a squad of 3 bullgryn and priest and yet ogryns still suck. Bigger transports will not fix anything wrong with bullgryns/ogryns.

Yes, ALL of the Imperiums assault vehicles are 200+ points or are Super Heavies, theres a reason no one fields them and they cant Assault out of a Chimera so its dumb to put them in there. You could but them into a Stormraven, but it can only fit 4 of them, and thats not enough.

Ogryns need a transport built FOR THEM, otherwise the only truly viable one is a Crassus or a Gorgon both of which are Super Heavies.

gungo wrote:

The elector priest need to cause 9 wounds on a t5 unit with no armour save vs electro priest that's not exactly hard.

For the Electro-Priests, well, yes it is.

They also need to somehow not get shot to death by a range 12in wpn that's str 5 ap-.

It's a high RoF S5 weapon against T3 infantry. It will SLAUGHTER them. Who cares if it is ap-? They have no armor!

These are not storm shield wolf riders or Wulfen we are comparing ogryn/bullgryn too.

Good, because if you want to make them that OP, I have no interest in participating.

 Ashiraya wrote:

gungo wrote:

The elector priest need to cause 9 wounds on a t5 unit with no armour save vs electro priest that's not exactly hard.

For the Electro-Priests, well, yes it is.

They also need to somehow not get shot to death by a range 12in wpn that's str 5 ap-.

It's a high RoF S5 weapon against T3 infantry. It will SLAUGHTER them. Who cares if it is ap-? They have no armor!

These are not storm shield wolf riders or Wulfen we are comparing ogryn/bullgryn too.

Good, because if you want to make them that OP, I have no interest in participating.

I concur with all of this.

Electro priests have an invulnerable save, so they're more durable than they look.

But anyway, I can see that nobody else wants Smash for Ogyrns. But one problem with Ogyrns is that they just don't hit hard enough in assault. All those high strength attacks just don't stick, because armor saves blunt them. A friend of mine said that they needed AP:3/AP:2 weapons to matter in assault, which is why I suggested Smash.

I had a think and, what about giving them Rending instead? That way, only a few wounds will be AP:2 rather than all of them, and they might even damage a land raider or dreadnought in assault. Say that sometimes an enraged Ogyrn can literally tear things apart Hulk style. Their description in the codex even references that (tearing a traitor marines head off with their bare hands).

The other things, FNP and increasing the range of Riper Guns to 18" are perfect. Actually, we might even try giving a Ripper Gun an AP of 5, turning it into a proper anti infantry weapon.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Electro priests have an invulnerable save, so they're more durable than they look.

But anyway, I can see that nobody else wants Smash for Ogyrns. But one problem with Ogyrns is that they just don't hit hard enough in assault. All those high strength attacks just don't stick, because armor saves blunt them. A friend of mine said that they needed AP:3/AP:2 weapons to matter in assault, which is why I suggested Smash.

I had a think and, what about giving them Rending instead? That way, only a few wounds will be AP:2 rather than all of them, and they might even damage a land raider or dreadnought in assault. Say that sometimes an enraged Ogyrn can literally tear things apart Hulk style. Their description in the codex even references that (tearing a traitor marines head off with their bare hands).

The other things, FNP and increasing the range of Riper Guns to 18" are perfect. Actually, we might even try giving a Ripper Gun an AP of 5, turning it into a proper anti infantry weapon.

Hmmm, Rending could be interesting, though that would need some playtesting to see just how effective it really is.

 Ashiraya wrote:

gungo wrote:

The elector priest need to cause 9 wounds on a t5 unit with no armour save vs electro priest that's not exactly hard.

For the Electro-Priests, well, yes it is.

They also need to somehow not get shot to death by a range 12in wpn that's str 5 ap-.

It's a high RoF S5 weapon against T3 infantry. It will SLAUGHTER them. Who cares if it is ap-? They have no armor!

These are not storm shield wolf riders or Wulfen we are comparing ogryn/bullgryn too.

Good, because if you want to make them that OP, I have no interest in participating.

You are joking me right?
Even in your theoretical world where electropriest somehow get caught within 12in of a squad of ogryn without being able to charge them. The orgyn only have 9 str5 bs3 shots. Half of those will miss and a sixth will fail to wounds and those that do get through will have a third of thier hits removed by the electorpriest invul save (I'm assuming you are talking about the melee electro priest with staff and i didn't even give him a 3++) and then a further third removed by feel no pain this is also considering you also failed to give the electro priest 4+ cover save from canticles. This is no where near slaughtering. It's a bad joke. You're lucky if a single electro priest dies from orgyn shooting. And the biggest shock of all you have been comparing an 18pt per model unit to a 40 point per model unit. I think the only thing you proved is ogryn still cost more individually and as a complete unit and are worse then Electropriest that don't get any army buffs that they will auto get every turn. And electro priest are alraady an underplayed and fairly bad unit.

Let's not do the numbers in melee it's even sadder how badly the ogryn lose to electropriest.
The electropriest are faster, have zealot, higher initiative, instadeath on6 powermaul wpns and even comparing a min squad of 3 ogryn with obligatory priest to an cheaper cost of 8x electropriest with staves. The electorpriest will completely wipe out the ogryn unit before the ogryns have a chance to strike. It's just sad how bad ogryns are compared to one of the most underused cult mechanicus units.