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 Ratius wrote:
So if I have an Eldar CAD with fire dragons and an allied detach with some serpents the FDs cant start in the serpents?

Appears so! Definitely shakes up list building a bit doesn't it! Good thing flyers will have their own detachment now and not take up those fast attack slots!

 Yarium wrote:
Nope. You treat other detachments of the same faction as Battle Brothers. That means detachments without drop pods can't start in drop pods.

Do you have rules support for that? Because while the Allies Matrix shows factions as being Battle Brothers with themselves, the last sentence of the second paragraph of the allies rules says (emphasis mine), "Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army, this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other." Also the sentence immediately before the Allies Matrix: "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
So if I have an Eldar CAD with fire dragons and an allied detach with some serpents the FDs cant start in the serpents?

Appears so! Definitely shakes up list building a bit doesn't it! Good thing flyers will have their own detachment now and not take up those fast attack slots!

ALSO... you can't bring the specific allied detachment of the same faction as your primary detachment... Just wanted to get this out there before someone screams about this. But I understand your intention!

You can in ITC.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
So if I have an Eldar CAD with fire dragons and an allied detach with some serpents the FDs cant start in the serpents?

Appears so! Definitely shakes up list building a bit doesn't it! Good thing flyers will have their own detachment now and not take up those fast attack slots!

ALSO... you can't bring the specific allied detachment of the same faction as your primary detachment... Just wanted to get this out there before someone screams about this. But I understand your intention!

Actually i am viewing this differently now.

Allie chart says different faction right.

So this is my take.

Say you have an Eldar CAD and an Eldar Aspect host of say dragons. Because they are the same faction those dragons could use serpants from the CAD.

When would this not work? Take space marines.. Ultra CAD and white scar land raider formation. units from the Ultra CAD cannot deploy into the white scar landraiders because they are different chapters and thusly different factions.

Well, right now it's hard to say, because yeah - me saying you treat other detachments of the same faction as Battle Brothers is a short-hand, so I could be wrong. I don't use Facebook, so can anyone ask GW to clarify that point?

The philosophy of the design definitely seems to be treating other detachments are separate forces/armies that happen to arrive together at the same fight, no pre-planning. Hence; you can't start in someone else' transport. Theoretically, that same philosophy would mean you can't start Fire Dragons from one detachment and have them start in the Wave Serpent of another detachment.

On the other hand, maybe you're "more than battle brothers" with your own faction, and so it is allowed.

Currently, I'd bank on the former, but until they clarify the FAQ it could be the latter!

WEll they need to reqreite the allies section; currently the FAQ is clear enough.

They would have to state that different detachments use the Allies matrx even if they are the same faction.

 Yarium wrote:
Well, right now it's hard to say, because yeah - me saying you treat other detachments of the same faction as Battle Brothers is a short-hand, so I could be wrong. I don't use Facebook, so can anyone ask GW to clarify that point?

The philosophy of the design definitely seems to be treating other detachments are separate forces/armies that happen to arrive together at the same fight, no pre-planning. Hence; you can't start in someone else' transport. Theoretically, that same philosophy would mean you can't start Fire Dragons from one detachment and have them start in the Wave Serpent of another detachment.

On the other hand, maybe you're "more than battle brothers" with your own faction, and so it is allowed.

Currently, I'd bank on the former, but until they clarify the FAQ it could be the latter!

I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, the question should definitely be asked, but I believe this is just a symptom of how a Matrix works when both axes are the same list. At some point, those factions are going to overlap with themselves, so something has to go in that box. GW decided to put "Battle Brothers" in that overlap.

Exactly, they just need to clarify what it means to be battle brothers when your the same faction across multiple detachments. Once that errata is made then we are golden.

I think I can handle putting things into drop pods that are from the same detachment. Maybe my lists are too simple.

Martel732 wrote:
I think I can handle putting things into drop pods that are from the same detachment. Maybe my lists are too simple.

Sure it can be done. So many options for dedicated trasports etc. But what about non space marine armies.

For example an eldar list made up of an aspect host + falcon formation. Just as quick example.. can those aspects not use the falcons on deployment? They are the same faction, but different detachments.

Not saying its not possible to be done, it just starts limiting the puzzle piece formations that they made available.

Yes, because you are told to only use the allies matrix - and thus the status of "battle brothers" - when you are of differing factions.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think I can handle putting things into drop pods that are from the same detachment. Maybe my lists are too simple.

Sure it can be done. So many options for dedicated trasports etc. But what about non space marine armies.

For example an eldar list made up of an aspect host + falcon formation. Just as quick example.. can those aspects not use the falcons on deployment? They are the same faction, but different detachments.

Not saying its not possible to be done, it just starts limiting the puzzle piece formations that they made available.

Even though i hate eldar, i'd like to think eldar can ride in eldar transports. But i understand the confusion.

I believe just making ALL drop pods dedicated transports and thus part of the unit you can buy them for, the problem would be solved.

Anyways, as mentioned before, I can understand that space marines wont lend their drop pods to just about any1, but an imperial guard commander who tells an eversor assassin to fu** off when he asks for a chimaera is just... weird ;-)

They are not part of the unit they are bought for. Ever. They are a separate unit ,whether DT or normal Transport. THis is a common misconception however.

 Yarium wrote:
Nope. You treat other detachments of the same faction as Battle Brothers. That means detachments without drop pods can't start in drop pods.

Incorrect. Ally rules only affect units from different Factions.

So long as the Drop Pods are from the same Codex, you are fine. So, no Wolf Drop Pods carrying Centruions, for example, but Iron Hands Drop Pods dropping Imperial Fist Centurions is technically fine.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Nope. You treat other detachments of the same faction as Battle Brothers. That means detachments without drop pods can't start in drop pods.

Incorrect. Ally rules only affect units from different Factions.

So long as the Drop Pods are from the same Codex, you are fine. So, no Wolf Drop Pods carrying Centruions, for example, but Iron Hands Drop Pods dropping Imperial Fist Centurions is technically fine.

Does chapter tactics clarify anything about treating those models as if they are different factions?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Does chapter tactics clarify anything about treating those models as if they are different factions?

It only states being able to take an Allied Detachment of the same Faction by having the Allied Detachment take different Chapter Tactics. Nothing about being Allies.

There is an exception to this, though, with the Forgeworld Chapter Tactic for the Carcharodons. They are Desparate Allies to Imperial Forces, including Space Marines.

Under detachments and formations

Q: Can an Unbound army use Dedicated Transports that are from a different codex? For example, could a Space Marine Tactical Squad take an Astra Militarum Chimera as its Dedicated Transport?
A: No.

If you can't do it in unbound with battle brothers, why could you do it between detachments?

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Under detachments and formations

Q: Can an Unbound army use Dedicated Transports that are from a different codex? For example, could a Space Marine Tactical Squad take an Astra Militarum Chimera as its Dedicated Transport?
A: No.

If you can't do it in unbound with battle brothers, why could you do it between detachments?

The question you posted has to do with taking transport "X" as a Dedicated Transport. Nothing prevents you from taking a BA Rhino and an AM Vet squad and embarking them Turn 1. What is being disallowed is the Vet squad taking the Rhino as a Dedicated Transport and starting inside it.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Under detachments and formations

Q: Can an Unbound army use Dedicated Transports that are from a different codex? For example, could a Space Marine Tactical Squad take an Astra Militarum Chimera as its Dedicated Transport?
A: No.

If you can't do it in unbound with battle brothers, why could you do it between detachments?

The question you posted has to do with taking transport "X" as a Dedicated Transport. Nothing prevents you from taking a BA Rhino and an AM Vet squad and embarking them Turn 1. What is being disallowed is the Vet squad taking the Rhino as a Dedicated Transport and starting inside it.

Right, it would be the same as taking a Land Raider Crusader as a Tactical Squad's Dedicated Transport. It simply isn't an option, but it is for Crusader Squads.

Nothing about using a regular Transport purchased as its own unit, so long as they aren't Allies.

I'm sure that GW will clarify this in the revised FAQ, but for fun, here's another point to consider:

Assuming models of the same faction as the primary detachment but in another detachment are 'the same army' and not 'battle brothers'...

In another answer on the FAQ they state that mixed-faction units count as a unit of each faction they are made up of. E.g. SM tac squad with attached Inquisitor counts as both a unit of faction Space Marines and also faction Inquisition.

As they count as a unit of faction space marines, are they therefore not Battle brothers and allowed in the pod?

Or because they also count as faction Inquisition they are battle brothers and can't go in the pod?

They've already clarified that this doesn't affect preferred enemy, so it doesn't seem like this 'counts as both factions' thing seems to actually affect anything rules wise...

Rubenite wrote:
I'm sure that GW will clarify this in the revised FAQ, but for fun, here's another point to consider:

Assuming models of the same faction as the primary detachment but in another detachment are 'the same army' and not 'battle brothers'...

In another answer on the FAQ they state that mixed-faction units count as a unit of each faction they are made up of. E.g. SM tac squad with attached Inquisitor counts as both a unit of faction Space Marines and also faction Inquisition.

As they count as a unit of faction space marines, are they therefore not Battle brothers and allowed in the pod?

Or because they also count as faction Inquisition they are battle brothers and can't go in the pod?

They've already clarified that this doesn't affect preferred enemy, so it doesn't seem like this 'counts as both factions' thing seems to actually affect anything rules wise...

Just one more of those discrepancies that have arisen, and something I noticed early on in this discussion.

But yeah, for Deployment, we may as well be back in 6th Edition, and if you include a Battle Brother IC in with a unit, it cannot start deployment in its Transport.

That REALLY puts a bigger crimp in some of the Allies for Detachment Special Rules.

I think I'd be okay with a ruling where if you have an attached IC as a chaperone, units can deploy in a transport belonging to the same faction as the IC, or the same faction as the squad.

It would add an awkward 65 point min 'tax' to a drop pod, potentially curbing their abuse in power gaming but still allowing a Chaplain to lead a squad of fervent Sisters into battle via drop pod, and also allow an Adeptus Mechanicus Techno Priest to accompany a Sororitas Command Squad in a Repressor. Fair and fluffy?

Rubenite wrote:
I think I'd be okay with a ruling where if you have an attached IC as a chaperone, units can deploy in a transport belonging to the same faction as the IC, or the same faction as the squad.

It would add an awkward 65 point min 'tax' to a drop pod, potentially curbing their abuse in power gaming but still allowing a Chaplain to lead a squad of fervent Sisters into battle via drop pod, and also allow an Adeptus Mechanicus Techno Priest to accompany a Sororitas Command Squad in a Repressor. Fair and fluffy?

The problem is whether you have a Chaplain in a Sororitas Command Squad or a Canoness in a Devastator Squad, the unit is still Battle Brothers with the Drop Pod, as well as being the same Faction.

And Battle Brothers cannot Embark in Transports during deployment.

True true, I was just wish listing a possible middle ground that might satisfy both sides of the 'rebalancing' angle

Can you still attach ICs(i.e a lord commisar) to a tactical squad and have them deployed in a rhino together (or a pod for that matter)?

peirceg wrote:
Can you still attach ICs(i.e a lord commisar) to a tactical squad and have them deployed in a rhino together (or a pod for that matter)?

In that example with a Lord Commissar and a Tactical Squad, no.

If IC and Tactical Squad are the same Faction though, then yes.

With the way some are swing this a ultra librarian concave is bared from joining a ultra CAD squad using a drop pod
As they are different formations some claimed they are BB even though they are the same faction

Oldmike wrote:
With the way some are swing this a ultra librarian concave is bared from joining a ultra CAD squad using a drop pod
As they are different formations some claimed they are BB even though they are the same faction

This has been discussed in this thread. The Allies rules (of which Battle Brothers is a part) apply only to units from different Factions.