Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Wow thank you very much for putting this together.

Definitely sounds like an interesting addition- I really like the reserve manipulation idea and the fact that fighters and bombers now have a more defined role on the battlefield.

How does the Guard fare? There is no entry or rules for Vendettas right? Seems pretty unnecessarily debilitating.

There's no entry for the Vendetta, but it's just a Valkyrie with Lascannons...so the P&A values would be the same(1 and 3 respectively), as would the role(Attack Flyer).

The Guard(these traits apply to both Guard and Tempestus BTW) fares pretty well from the fact that their Wing Leader rules tend to be all about Attack Patterns.
1-2 result is that they get to move an extra 3" when they're in an Attack Pattern at the start of Movement, and they automatically pass Break Turn tests.
3-4 is that the Wing gets to reroll To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls of 1 if they are in an Attack Pattern.
5-6 is that they can reroll failed saves when they Jink if they are in an Attack Pattern when the saving throw is made.

The 5-6 result is huge if you run 4 in a Fortitude pattern, where you get a 4+ Invulnerable and It Will Not Die.

Awesome. Thanks for the information. I'll have to pick this up.

Flyers were always out of scale with the table size for 40K, and never a good idea other than for some kind of overpriced transport/deployment option/scenery...

But now they turn them into an off-board mini-game?

I understand that Games Workshop is struggling with a mature product that has a thriving secondary/used market. But this is a pretty awful product, from a gameplay perspective.

 Peregrine wrote:
LOL GUYS PLAY ROCK/PAPER/SCISSORS TO SEE WHO WINS.

Made my day, for sure.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Wow thank you very much for putting this together.

Definitely sounds like an interesting addition- I really like the reserve manipulation idea and the fact that fighters and bombers now have a more defined role on the battlefield.

How does the Guard fare? There is no entry or rules for Vendettas right? Seems pretty unnecessarily debilitating.

There's no entry for the Vendetta, but it's just a Valkyrie with Lascannons...so the P&A values would be the same(1 and 3 respectively), as would the role(Attack Flyer).

The Guard(these traits apply to both Guard and Tempestus BTW) fares pretty well from the fact that their Wing Leader rules tend to be all about Attack Patterns.
1-2 result is that they get to move an extra 3" when they're in an Attack Pattern at the start of Movement, and they automatically pass Break Turn tests.
3-4 is that the Wing gets to reroll To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls of 1 if they are in an Attack Pattern.
5-6 is that they can reroll failed saves when they Jink if they are in an Attack Pattern when the saving throw is made.

The 5-6 result is huge if you run 4 in a Fortitude pattern, where you get a 4+ Invulnerable and It Will Not Die.

Awesome. Thanks for the information. I'll have to pick this up.

But do we get any new flyers - IE a ground attack aircraft and a true Fighter instead of the crappy VTOL gunship/transports that we have now?

Technically there should not be any Imperial Guard Flyers - they should be, almost without exception, Imperial Navy and hence just a bolt on to any Imperial force.

In fact it should really have been a Imperial Knight style Codex.

But then they retconned the background massively to keep churning out more and more Astartes flyers so they might as well do the same for the Guard, Mechanicum (*) and Sororitas

(*) the Mechanicum being the once force who really should have an integrated air/void force, of course have nothing.

Slightly surprised we have not had a Knight flyer/ skimmer yet............can't look any worse than the Marine crap

Dont tempt them please...

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Wow thank you very much for putting this together.

Definitely sounds like an interesting addition- I really like the reserve manipulation idea and the fact that fighters and bombers now have a more defined role on the battlefield.

How does the Guard fare? There is no entry or rules for Vendettas right? Seems pretty unnecessarily debilitating.

There's no entry for the Vendetta, but it's just a Valkyrie with Lascannons...so the P&A values would be the same(1 and 3 respectively), as would the role(Attack Flyer).

The Guard(these traits apply to both Guard and Tempestus BTW) fares pretty well from the fact that their Wing Leader rules tend to be all about Attack Patterns.
1-2 result is that they get to move an extra 3" when they're in an Attack Pattern at the start of Movement, and they automatically pass Break Turn tests.
3-4 is that the Wing gets to reroll To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls of 1 if they are in an Attack Pattern.
5-6 is that they can reroll failed saves when they Jink if they are in an Attack Pattern when the saving throw is made.

The 5-6 result is huge if you run 4 in a Fortitude pattern, where you get a 4+ Invulnerable and It Will Not Die.

Awesome. Thanks for the information. I'll have to pick this up.

But do we get any new flyers - IE a ground attack aircraft and a true Fighter instead of the crappy VTOL gunship/transports that we have now?

When he asked about "how does the Guard fare?", do you think I just left the super cool new Guard stuff out?

Valkyrie is the only Guard entry in there. It's an Attack Flyer, just like the majority of stuff in the book is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Technically there should not be any Imperial Guard Flyers - they should be, almost without exception, Imperial Navy and hence just a bolt on to any Imperial force.

Not true. Navy units that are attached to the Guard for a length of time are effectively considered Guard. They use Guard camo patterns, they report to the Guard chain of command, etc.

In fact it should really have been a Imperial Knight style Codex.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an Imperial Navy book at some point--but I don't think it will be soon.

But then they retconned the background massively to keep churning out more and more Astartes flyers so they might as well do the same for the Guard, Mechanicum (*) and Sororitas

What exactly have they retconned in regards to the Astartes flyers? Astartes have always been a separate entity and have always had their own fleets, etc. It's not beyond belief they'd have their own aircraft.

(*) the Mechanicum being the once force who really should have an integrated air/void force, of course have nothing.

We've seen nothing about the Mechanicum having aircraft that aren't just transports, most of the stuff I've read about has them getting Navy support.

Not true. Navy units that are attached to the Guard for a length of time are effectively considered Guard. They use Guard camo patterns, they report to the Guard chain of command, etc.

That's new - all the fluff i have says that the Guard / Astra Millitarum flyers are tempoary loan:

With a few notable exceptions, most Imperial Guard formations will have a small numbers of Valkyries and Vendettas attached to them on a temporary basis, such craft are first and formost, the property of the Imperial Navy

p48

Even extended duration loans the pilots report directly to only senior officers in the Regiment.

What exactly have they retconned in regards to the Astartes flyers? Astartes have always been a separate entity and have always had their own fleets, etc. It's not beyond belief they'd have their own aircraft.

Every single flyer that was not a Thunderhawk gunship is a retcon. It goes against the way the Astartes fight - thye are not supposed to have a complete fighting force to reduce the chance of another Horus Heresy .... if they had to keep churning out new Space marine flyers - then it would have made more sense to have them flown by serfs and fialed aspirants..... IMO at least

We've seen nothing about the Mechanicum having aircraft that aren't just transports, most of the stuff I've read about has them getting Navy support.

The Mechancium operate entire warfleets without any Imperial Navy support - therefore it stands to reason they have air and void craft does it not?

Thanks for answering my previous questions... I have another clarification.

So the book defines what an "air" and "ground" target is.

Since only fighters have optional skyfire, does this mean that attack flyers can only snapfire at the listed "air" targets????????

That would be huge.. since skimmers and jetbikes are listed as air targets..

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Thanks for answering my previous questions... I have another clarification.

So the book defines what an "air" and "ground" target is.

Since only fighters have optional skyfire, does this mean that attack flyers can only snapfire at the listed "air" targets????????

That would be huge.. since skimmers and jetbikes are listed as air targets..

Waitwaitwait, does this mean I am now snapfiring at Skimmers and Jetbikes with all my none skyfire guns?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Thanks for answering my previous questions... I have another clarification.

So the book defines what an "air" and "ground" target is.

Since only fighters have optional skyfire, does this mean that attack flyers can only snapfire at the listed "air" targets????????

No. Hard to Hit is the rule which makes Zooming Flyers only able to be shot at with Snap Shots. Skimmers and Jetbikes do not have Hard to Hit.

The optional Skyfire as well is just telling you to refer to the BRB for Skyfire rules. The only thing that Fighters and their optional Skyfire has different is the -1 BS when targeting Ground Targets.

That would be huge.. since skimmers and jetbikes are listed as air targets..

Okay, so.

"Air Targets" and "Ground Targets" are used for resolving the Attack Pattern special rules.
Many of them give Attack Flyers bonuses versus Ground Targets(Vigilance grants +1 BS v. Ground Targets) and Fighters get bonuses versus Air Targets(+1 BS v. Air Targets in that same pattern for Fighters) while Bombers get a benefit to the Strength of their bombs, reduced Scatter, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Thanks for answering my previous questions... I have another clarification.

So the book defines what an "air" and "ground" target is.

Since only fighters have optional skyfire, does this mean that attack flyers can only snapfire at the listed "air" targets????????

No. Hard to Hit is the rule which makes Zooming Flyers only able to be shot at with Snap Shots. Skimmers and Jetbikes do not have Hard to Hit.

The optional Skyfire as well is just telling you to refer to the BRB for Skyfire rules. The only thing that Fighters and their optional Skyfire has different is the -1 BS when targeting Ground Targets.

That would be huge.. since skimmers and jetbikes are listed as air targets..

Okay, so.

"Air Targets" and "Ground Targets" are used for resolving the Attack Pattern special rules.
Many of them give Attack Flyers bonuses versus Ground Targets(Vigilance grants +1 BS v. Ground Targets) and Fighters get bonuses versus Air Targets(+1 BS v. Air Targets in that same pattern for Fighters) while Bombers get a benefit to the Strength of their bombs, reduced Scatter, etc.

Thank goodness.. I realize my post was a bit overreacting but i panicked haha!

So to clarify the skyfire stuff... So all flyers still innately have skyfire then? And the fighters is optional with a penalty against ground??? Sorry I am just confusing myself it seems haha

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not true. Navy units that are attached to the Guard for a length of time are effectively considered Guard. They use Guard camo patterns, they report to the Guard chain of command, etc.

That's new - all the fluff i have says that the Guard / Astra Millitarum flyers are tempoary loan:

With a few notable exceptions, most Imperial Guard formations will have a small numbers of Valkyries and Vendettas attached to them on a temporary basis, such craft are first and formost, the property of the Imperial Navy

p48

Even extended duration loans the pilots report directly to only senior officers in the Regiment.

You're better off reading Imperial Armour, plus you just reiterated what I said.

"Effectively considered Guard" != "They become Guard".

What exactly have they retconned in regards to the Astartes flyers? Astartes have always been a separate entity and have always had their own fleets, etc. It's not beyond belief they'd have their own aircraft.

Every single flyer that was not a Thunderhawk gunship is a retcon. It goes against the way the Astartes fight - thye are not supposed to have a complete fighting force to reduce the chance of another Horus Heresy .... if they had to keep churning out new Space marine flyers - then it would have made more sense to have them flown by serfs and failed aspirants..... IMO at least

So, it goes against the way that the Astartes fight and they're not supposed to have a complete fighting force to reduce the chance of another Horus Heresy...but you want them to have serfs and failed aspirants(who usually die or get Servitored mind you) flying fighters?

I get that it's "rabble rabble rabble, Space Marines shouldn't have everything for themselves!"--but you literally just gave one reason for things to not be, and counteracted it with your suggestion.

Also, "retcon" means that they went back on something and reversed the decision. That's not what happened. Nothing said those Flyers didn't exist before.

We've seen nothing about the Mechanicum having aircraft that aren't just transports, most of the stuff I've read about has them getting Navy support.

The Mechancium operate entire warfleets without any Imperial Navy support - therefore it stands to reason they have air and void craft does it not?

That's not the question though. You posted about the Mechanicum having aircraft, and I made a specific mention of the fact that I've seen nothing about them having aircraft that aren't just transports. Most of the fighter/bomber/attack craft support seems to be Navy.

I'm sure somewhere there's stuff about the Mechanicum having aircraft or void capable craft--but I've not seen it. It would stand to reason that it would be associated with the Forge Worlds for defense rather than Explorator Fleets(why deploy aircraft when you have pinpoint precision orbital strikes?)--and the Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus lists we've gotten seem to be more leaning towards the "Explorator Fleet" side of things right now.

So, no new Guard flyers and our existing one has been turned into an airborne coffin

Why are GW so obsessed with punishing the Guard?

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Thanks for answering my previous questions... I have another clarification.

So the book defines what an "air" and "ground" target is.

Since only fighters have optional skyfire, does this mean that attack flyers can only snapfire at the listed "air" targets????????

No. Hard to Hit is the rule which makes Zooming Flyers only able to be shot at with Snap Shots. Skimmers and Jetbikes do not have Hard to Hit.

The optional Skyfire as well is just telling you to refer to the BRB for Skyfire rules. The only thing that Fighters and their optional Skyfire has different is the -1 BS when targeting Ground Targets.

That would be huge.. since skimmers and jetbikes are listed as air targets..

Okay, so.

"Air Targets" and "Ground Targets" are used for resolving the Attack Pattern special rules.
Many of them give Attack Flyers bonuses versus Ground Targets(Vigilance grants +1 BS v. Ground Targets) and Fighters get bonuses versus Air Targets(+1 BS v. Air Targets in that same pattern for Fighters) while Bombers get a benefit to the Strength of their bombs, reduced Scatter, etc.

Thank goodness.. I realize my post was a bit overreacting but i panicked haha!

So to clarify the skyfire stuff... So all flyers still innately have skyfire then? And the fighters is optional with a penalty against ground??? Sorry I am just confusing myself it seems haha

The rule about all Flyers innately having Skyfire seems to be replaced. Fighters have the option of activating Skyfire each Shooting Phase.

Flyers with the "Fighter" role always are at a -1 to their Ballistic Skill when shooting at Ground Targets

The other Flyers(Bombers and Attack Flyers) can fire at their full Ballistic Skill if they get behind an enemy Flyer during a Dogfight(and only during a Dogfight), but they can't use Templates since effectively they're still kinda/sorta Snap Shooting they just aren't being penalized for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
So, no new Guard flyers and our existing one has been turned into an airborne coffin

Why are GW so obsessed with punishing the Guard?

...
Yes, the Valkyrie has been "turned into an airborne coffin".
Wing Leader benefits totally don't make it so that you can have a rerollable 4+ Invulnerable save when they Jink in the "Fortitude" Attack Pattern...and they get IWND as well.
Or that you can auto-pass Break Turn tests and get an extra 3" added to their move(in addition to their Pursuit score of 1--so it becomes 4") while in an Attack Pattern.
Or that you can reroll To Wound an Armour Penetration rolls of 1 while in an Attack Pattern.

Oh and let's not forget that if you run a detachment of Valkyries rather than FA slots, you get the following benefits:
Air Commander: Pick a Wing Leader from this Detachment to be its commander. If the commander is in Reserve, you can reroll the dice in the Interception sub-phase. If you have Air Superiority and the Commander is in Reserve, you can add or subtract 2 from your Reserve Rolls instead of 1 and your opponent must subtract 2 from their Reserve Rolls.

Combined Formation: You can roll once for all(potentially 3 Flyer Wings) of the Wings in this Detachment to see if they arrive from Reserve. If the roll is successful they all arrive. If it fails none of them do. You can roll individually for each Wing if you prefer.

Objective Secured: All Transports from this Detachment which can Hover have the Objective Secured rule. Only applies while Hovering.

Really surprised they keep trying with these dogfight rules, isn't this the 3rd time they've published them? They've never really caught on the last time either.

To be fair, the last time "Death From the Skies" was a limited print run. This is apparently intended to be a "Core Supplement".

 Kanluwen wrote:
To be fair, the last time "Death From the Skies" was a limited print run. This is apparently intended to be a "Core Supplement".

I have the last "Death from the Skies" supplement: didn't like it much then, looking the same now.
It just seems like some unnecessary complication.
What I find funny is 40k is supposed to play on such small tables that a dogfight is a rather predictable thing: typically you know where he is going since you spend more time trying not to fly off the table.

Wow, those are awful rules :9 I can't imagine ever wanting to use them in a full game of 40k.

I guess it was being too hopfull that they would redo the flyers to actuly act kinda like aircraft on a futuristic battlefield.

When the rules were being leaked there were rumours that attack fighters and bombers were going to be given rules to make up for the loss of skyfire, but now I cannot find anything. Am I missing something?

 the Signless wrote:
When the rules were being leaked there were rumours that attack fighters and bombers were going to be given rules to make up for the loss of skyfire, but now I cannot find anything. Am I missing something?

Outside of the Dogfight phase, they do not have Skyfire or anything approximating it unless it's on a specific weapon.

Inside of the Dogfight phase, they get to fire at their normal Ballistic Skill if they can get into the enemy's rear arc.
Additionally, if the Defender chooses "Hold Steady" and the Attacker chooses "Tail" for their actions during the Attack sub-phase then the Attacker gets +1 BS and shoots first.

Worth mentioning, again, that Fighters are always at a -1 BS when firing at Ground Targets.

I don't mind GW adding new rules for flyers, I actually appreciate the idea of different flyers having specific roles on the battlefield.

What I'm not too keen on is having to pay an extra $50 for rules update to A) the $70 BRB and B) the $50 codex for my army. That crap should have been listed online in .pdf format for free. I don't have a problem paying for new products and option rules, but making it a full fledged update and at that price point is a bit much.

Seems a bit complicated, but not horrendously so.

Question - when does the dogfight end - until one plane dies or disengages? Because it would be a little gakky to, say, force a dakkajet to fight a storm raven until the dakkajet inevitably loses.

My own view on it is that it's a nice expansion for someone looking for dedicated air battles. But shoved into the game in its full it slows down games and adds yet another phase with 4 sub-phases into turns with 3 phases (and their subphases) to beginwith, making it too tedious.

I believe on a national level in tournaments the dogfight phase (which is mentioned being optional) will be left out as you are on a schedule in a tournament anyway. That is certainly what we are doing. New rules are adhered to as it's directly stated that they replace the rules for Flyers in the BRB, but the whole minigame is left out for practical reasons.

All and all, it's a good addition for when you really feel like going all out with flyers (which I kind of think is what it's supposed to be.)

As an ork player I really like this book. Even if the dog fight phase is never used, the rest of the rules have a lot to offer imo.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Seems a bit complicated, but not horrendously so.

Question - when does the dogfight end - until one plane dies or disengages? Because it would be a little gakky to, say, force a dakkajet to fight a storm raven until the dakkajet inevitably loses.

It ends at the end of the Dogfight phase.