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If you made changes to charging from vehicles you could go for charges from assault vehicles are normal but non assault vehicle charges are disordered.

pm713 wrote:
If you made changes to charging from vehicles you could go for charges from assault vehicles are normal but non assault vehicle charges are disordered.

That's nice, but BA are really supposed to be viable with jump packs, not packed into crates like Ultramarines. This rule would just bring back the absurd BA lists of 5th.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:More like "I want Gauss on my bolters"

Necrons have it on theirs. Just saying.

Yeah, because its a necron rule.
Stop taking our stuff.

You might as well complain that bolters aren't pseudo-rending, 30" range S5 AP5 and poison.

Speaking of marines, they should be really strong, but few in number. There should not be a table covered with 10 man marine units.
There should be like, 2 squads of 5, a couple of vehicles and the rest composed of IG allies / chapter serfs / whatever.

The space marines are supposed to be primarily used as special forces, not a main offensive.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:More like "I want Gauss on my bolters"

Necrons have it on theirs. Just saying.

Yeah, because its a necron rule.
Stop taking our stuff.

You might as well complain that bolters aren't rending, 30" S5 AP5 and poison.

Bolters do suck badly, though. But then, they have always sucked. All the things that make marines good have nothing to do with the actual marines. ATSKNF is now a useless rule, as are grenades for the most part. WS 4 ans S 4 are useless because they only get one swing in CC. Bolters being rapid fire AND terrible at killing things is just the icing on the gak cake.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus. Obviously this one should have existed a long time ago as well. Basically Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, and Imperial Knights rolled into one codex.

I think this idea scares me the most, because you're suggesting they remove the most common super heavy ally from the entire Imperium and give it purely to one codex.

The reason it's the most common is because it's far more cost effective than the other 6 vanilla superheavies, the Baneblades and their variants.

With the changes I proposed, only Space Marines would be losing Super Heavies, and they really shouldn't have any of them anyways. if they must have one, maybe a superheavy flyer. The Imperial Armies should each have their own unique unit for each slot, not share one "be all end all" unit.

As if IK were end all, be all. Against the field, I'd say they are a bit gakky actually.

I want marines to be more than the grav show or the Gladius shooting gallery. Marines are currently the best horde army, which is patently absurd.

tbf, that's because a lot of things are T4 with good saves. If T4 and 4+ saves were a rarity, then bolters would be a bit better.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
tbf, that's because a lot of things are T4 with good saves. If T4 and 4+ saves were a rarity, then bolters would be a bit better.

There's more to it than that. But that's one problem. Being rapid fire is stupid for a model with a bunch of assault stats.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines are currently the best horde army, which is patently absurd.

Yeah, its nonsense. They are supposed to be a small elite force, not terran marines.
If they were fielded in the fluff like in the table top with their in-lore numbers, they would be all wiped out.

As far as the BRB goes, I want to see balance (with anything new or old but previously removed being added only in the name of balance). We don't need more rules.

As for Codeces:
-- I'd like to see updates for all the weaker Factions (e.g. CSM, Tyranids, Orks)

-- I'd like to see the folding of all Space Marine Chapters into the Vanilla Codex (excl. Spaces Wolves and Dark Angals) with some generic Chapter Tactics (i.e. everything you need to make your own Chapter on the tabletop).

-- I'd like to see Supplements for all the big Chapters (e.g. Ultramarines) with Black Templars potentially getting their own codex again.

-- With regards to formations, I would like to see formations that are at the core of the army instead of the ones we have. For example: Space Marines would only get formations which describe the makeup of a specific Company.

Traditio wrote:
1. I hate the blast rules. I want to see it go back to the 4th edition rules (where blasts actually did roll to hit). Orks and tactical marines should not be (roughly) equally good at firing blast weapons.

2. I want to see significant nerfs to rerollable saves, superheavy vehicles and gargantuan/monstrous creatures.

3. I want to see significant nerfs to bikes.

7. I want to see vehicle cover rules apply to all MCs.

11.I want to see Tau and Eldar nerfed into the ground.

12. I want summoning to go away.

The changes that I've left in the above quote embodies why I can't take you seriously. You had some good suggestions in that post, but these changes are iffy at best.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines are currently the best horde army, which is patently absurd.

Yeah, its nonsense. They are supposed to be a small elite force, not terran marines.
If they were fielded in the fluff like in the table top with their in-lore numbers, they would be all wiped out.

I still think it's great that Starcraft terrans don't even bother with non-power armor troops. And then they are fodder for the real stuff.

They'd all be wiped out anyway, since they are ants to knight-level units and titans.

Martel732 wrote:
As if IK were end all, be all. Against the field, I'd say they are a bit gakky actually.

I want marines to be more than the grav show or the Gladius shooting gallery. Marines are currently the best horde army, which is patently absurd.

Welcome to power creep.

Remember when a T3 model costing 9 points was considered CHEAP? My Hormagaunts sure do.

Declutter the rules a la Age of Sigmar but not quite so violently, to decrease the size of the butt-hurt legion.

I don't know about anyone else here, but 4 pages of rules feels less like studying for your exams and more like actually playing the game you paid for lol.

Throw in rending mechanics ie the saving throw modifier of minus whatever.

The Monstrous creature chart for AoS should be applicable to 40K beasties. Having them become less effective as they soak up wounds is pretty nice IMO.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Declutter the rules a la Age of Sigmar but not quite so violently, to decrease the size of the butt-hurt legion.

I don't know about anyone else here, but 4 pages of rules feels less like studying for your exams and more like actually playing the game you paid for lol.

Throw in rending mechanics ie the saving throw modifier of minus whatever.

The Monstrous creature chart for AoS should be applicable to 40K beasties. Having them become less effective as they soak up wounds is pretty nice IMO.

There's a few key MCs in 40K you can't even clear wounds on, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As if IK were end all, be all. Against the field, I'd say they are a bit gakky actually.

I want marines to be more than the grav show or the Gladius shooting gallery. Marines are currently the best horde army, which is patently absurd.

Welcome to power creep.

Remember when a T3 model costing 9 points was considered CHEAP? My Hormagaunts sure do.

Yeah, but that was the best 9 pts in the whole damn game. The 2nd ed Nids were damn near unstoppable.

They might change the blast rules as the new die don't seem to have a scatter dice in them.

I would like a balanced rule set that gives pros and cons to taking each unit. Then we can address Codex rules.

IllumiNini wrote:

Traditio wrote:
1. I hate the blast rules. I want to see it go back to the 4th edition rules (where blasts actually did roll to hit). Orks and tactical marines should not be (roughly) equally good at firing blast weapons.

2. I want to see significant nerfs to rerollable saves, superheavy vehicles and gargantuan/monstrous creatures.

3. I want to see significant nerfs to bikes.

7. I want to see vehicle cover rules apply to all MCs.

11.I want to see Tau and Eldar nerfed into the ground.

12. I want summoning to go away.

The changes that I've left in the above quote embodies why I can't take you seriously. You had some good suggestions in that post, but these changes are iffy at best.

I fail to see how expressing my opinion that an official rule of a previous edition (i.e., not homebrew or a houserule) is superior to rule of a current edition excludes me from being taken seriously. The 4th ed blast rules actually made more sense when it came to the to-hit roll. You selected a unit, chose a model and then rolled to hit. You succeeded? You place the blast marker and see how many you hit. You missed? You missed.

Does this rule need improvement? Sure.

But the improvement that was needed most certainly was not to give blast weapons a completely different mechanic to determine hits vs. misses which made BS largely irrelevant, a change which ultimately ended up with plasma guns being able to reroll gets hot, but plasma cannons not being able to reroll gets hot...because reasons, a change which made orks and space marines roughly equivalent in skill at firing blast weapons.

At any rate, I can understand how someone might want to dismiss 11 and 12 off hand, but I fail to see how 2, 3 and 7 are so inherently objectionable that you would dismiss them off hand as inherently ridiculous.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Making the xeno codexes competitive again and boot out the Cruddace. "

Please tell me how this is an issue.

Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Orks. Really every Xenos book has problems. Although they tend to flick wildly from too strong to not strong enough.

Throw in BA, IG, and GK as well.

If I meant all codexes not just Xenos ones I would have done.

So you purposefully left out those other codexes because you like imbalance... but don't like imbalance for xenos factions. Everyone who plays those other ones should suffer?

@Traditio: Here's how I see your points [1], [2], [3], and [7]:

[1] Tactical Marines and Orks are not as good as each other at firing Blast weapons. Admittedly the difference is mild, but there is still a difference. Just saying.

[2] Significant Nerfs isn't necessarily the answer the the problems caused by those units as a whole. If you said "Significant Balancing" instead, I'd be agreeing with you.

[3] Why do bikes as a whole need "Significant Nerfs"? I think this point falls under the same category as above which is "Significant Balancing" instead.

[7] I shouldn't have left that in. My mistake.

An ideal 8th edition for me would be a slight update. No major changes. All the FAQ and Errata for 7th added to the core rule book. Updated Flyer rules and Fortifications added.

Bolters are not a crap weapon. Against anything that isn't a MEQ they pretty much murder it without a save. Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Guard loathe being on the receiving end of Bolter Fire.

Orks bumped to BS3, and add Ork Clan rulez similar to Space Marine Chapter Traits.

Tyranids have 22 formations, none of them in the actual codex. Just collect all the new Tyranid model rules released since the codex and put the top 5 formations in the book.

Necrons - Bring Pariahs back

Sisters get an actual printed codex

Start by not taking people demanding that all the things they don't like NEED to be changed seriously.

Get rid of anything that makes for "shenanigans".
Simplify/streamline the game A LOT. There is just too much random to keep track of.
Something like AoS wouldn't hurt (not the fluff though, KEEP THE GRIMDARK). If they change the mechnics in a way that requires different stats they will have to redo all the armies.

Bring the suffering armies back, CSM need to be slightly better than vanilla marines (that was the point of going to chaos) and SOB in all their glory.

What is worth noting is that both warhammers are NOT meant to be a balanced games of skill, as far as I can tell. The intent is to make a game where AWESOME models ( YEA) are put down and AWESOME ( YEA) stuff happens, there are giant aliens/daemons/robots, heroic heros and EPIC conflicts with your guys .

I think most of the problems with 40k come from trying to appease people who want it to be about skill; while GW are really trying to make it about awesome.

Even so; the laughable excuse for "balance" is disgraceful. There's a limit to how balanced a game like 40k can be, but GW isn't even close to that.

 adamsouza wrote:
An ideal 8th edition for me would be a slight update. No major changes. All the FAQ and Errata for 7th added to the core rule book. Updated Flyer rules and Fortifications added.

Bolters are not a crap weapon. Against anything that isn't a MEQ they pretty much murder it without a save. Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Guard loathe being on the receiving end of Bolter Fire.

Orks bumped to BS3, and add Ork Clan rulez similar to Space Marine Chapter Traits.

Tyranids have 22 formations, none of them in the actual codex. Just collect all the new Tyranid model rules released since the codex and put the top 5 formations in the book.

Necrons - Bring Pariahs back

Sisters get an actual printed codex

Bolters murder nothing. Eldar are rocking 3+ save now jus like marines. The Tyranids that matter have 3+ saves. Guard have the numbers to not care. Bolters are crap. And have been since forever.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Get rid of anything that makes for "shenanigans".

...but that's the Harlequins bread and butter

1. No random anything. Fixed movements and assaults, warlord traits, etc.

2. Consolidate the special rules as much as possible

3. Get rid of Necrons RPs, and give them +6 FNP

4. Undo the 'I saw a daemBLAM!' fluff of the Grey Knights

5. Pay points to pick which psychic powers you want your psyker to have.

6. Make all flyers in non-apoc games count as and follow all the same rules as skimmers

7. Make the Hrud into Space Skaven again and give them an army

8. Do away with Overwatch

9. Only models with Fleet may run

10. Chaos get more stuff on par with regular marines in equivalence to Stormravens/talons, Land Speeders, etc.

11. Roll Chaos Daemons and CSM back into one dex and bring back the DAEMON BOMB!

12. Gets Hot on longer applies to vehicles.

13. Eldar Jetbikes have every 1 in 3 be able to take a scatter laser or shuriken cannon

14. Special Characters unless army is above 'x' amount of points and you have opponent permission

15. Make Ordnance HURT again or cheaper up artillery units like certain IG tanks and the Chaos Defiler

16. Nerf grav weapons or at least give Chaos access to them.

17. No more buying buildings. Buildings are terrain.

18. Chaos can pick and pay the appropriate points for what Possessed they want

19. Bring back the dreadaxe for Chaos

20. Give Ork Warbosses a power weapon option (preferably a burna, so it's versatile...and bbqs things)

21. Streamline the weapons in close combat. CCWs are everything from knives, clubs, swords a big rock, etc. Power weapons are power weapons, they ignore armor saves and use the users strength. Big Hit weapons like Thunder Hammers, Power Klaws/Fists, Eviscerators etc. should all have the same profile, L. Claws count as P. Fists with rerolls to wound.

22. Drop ALL 'basic' Space Marines (including CSM) to Int 3

23. Be able to move a transport, have the unit get out, shoot and then assault an enemy.

24. Titans/GCs and Superheavies can't be taken in non-apoc games

25. Give IG a biker unit

26. No formations in non-apoc games or tweak to where a formation is an actual 'arrangement' the models have to be deployed in to get the formations bonuses.

That should be enough.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters murder nothing.

Orks - Everything that isn't in Mega Amor, like 99% of the codex
Eldar - Everything that isn't an aspect warrior or has Wraith in the name
Tyranids - Everything that isn't a monstrous creature or has Guard in the name
Guard - Everyone
Tau - Everyone who isn't in power armor

If bolters were any better, you wouldn't need any other weapons.

Make bolters AP3 and watch the world burn.

Needs to rework the rules involving SHV/GMCs. Poison and Sniper should be more effective, Stomp and D-attacks should be less.

Also need to deal with S6/S7 spam glancing out vehicles. Some kind of 3+ armour save would be ideal.

Some of my ideas are somewhat army-specific, but here are some things I would like to see in 8th edition:
-Space Marine Terminators (including all variants like Deathwing, Chaos, GK) have some special rule that either ignores Rending and Bladestorm, or give them two wounds. Or both. Or maybe something else. Make terminators relevant.
-Vehicles need some kind of help. Mainly find a way to make it where glancing a vehicle to death is no longer a thing. Like maybe a vehicle cannot lose its last hull point to a glancing hit. This would help prevent a unit of Necron warriors from toasting a much more costly Land Raider. Also, grav weapons should only immobilize a vehicle for one turn, and not take hull points. Hull points themselves are not the problem. Another idea that I've seen bounced around is the idea of giving vehicles some kind of armor save based on the AV. This would mean that a vehicle would be less vulnerable to small arms, but anti tank weapons would still be very effective (as they should be).
-Transport vehicles specifically need a little work. You should be able to assault out of a stationary vehicle. Or maybe you should have to pass a leadership check to do this. Or something. This would make Rhino rush a thing again, but drop pods would not become super nasty (er) because they would count as having moved on the turn they drop. Assault vehicles such as Land Raiders remain as they are, you can assault out of them even if they move with no leadership required.
-Add a Critical Hit system for MC/GC's. Maybe on a 6 to wound you cause d3 wounds instead of 1, unless you can only wound on a 6. Maybe only AP2/AP1 weapons would be able to cause Critical Hits, making them a go-to choice for monster hunting as well as vehicle popping.
-Do something about crazy ally shenanigans. No more Superfriends deathstar units. Maybe make it where even Battle Brothers cannot join each other's units. Also no more Come the Apocalypse allies. CtA should mean you can't ally. This does hurt Tyranids, but maybe that means its time for a new 'nid Dex...
-Make it so only Chaos psykers can summon Daemons. I don't see a lot of players abusing Summoning with Imperial units, but I've seen it done. Should not be possible. Also make it so CSM can use Malefic powers without getting Perils on every doubles. CSM Sorcerers can summon Daemons in the fluff, so they should be able to on the TT without dying every time they try.
-I'm not sure what could be done about this, but something needs to be done to make CC more relevant. I don't think it's horribly bad right now, but it needs something. Really I like someone's suggestion I read in this thread about Overwatch needing a Leadership check. Perhaps certain armies would give penalties to this check.
-Many point costs need adjusted across the board. Too many to list. Some things need to be more expensive, others need to be cheaper.
-Possibly add a restriction on the number of certain often-spammed units allowed in a single army. Many players complain about players spamming all the good units, so maybe there should be rules in place to prevent some of this. Make certain units "Limited Availability" or something.
-In the composite detachments ("Decurion-style detachments"), limit each auxiliary choice to 1 per core choice. This goes with the spam prevention above.
-Psychic powers in general need some adjustment and balancing. Certain disciplines and powers are way too powerful (*coughInviscough*), and others, like Pyromancy, are just so weak that no one takes them. I'm okay with rolling for powers, but we need more variety than everyone rolling on Telepathy and hoping for that 5.
-Many Codexes need some updates (specifically Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Orks, and Tyranids), so those should be given priority for new releases. They should be brought to the power level of the current power codexes and then hopefully as even more new books come out there is no further power creep.

First get rid of any armies ability to create units. It's dumb to bring my 2k list and then my opponent creates another 500 points. Second let psykers pick spells. Third no more super heavies in regular 40K

 adamsouza wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters murder nothing.

Orks - Everything that isn't in Mega Amor, like 99% of the codex
Eldar - Everything that isn't an aspect warrior or has Wraith in the name
Tyranids - Everything that isn't a monstrous creature or has Guard in the name
Guard - Everyone
Tau - Everyone who isn't in power armor

If bolters were any better, you wouldn't need any other weapons.

Make bolters AP3 and watch the world burn.

Doesn't seem to help the 1K sons. At all. Bolters suck. You need to get a grip on this. The only thing keeping marines at the top is invis shenanigans, grav cannons, and free transports.

yellowfever wrote:
First get rid of any armies ability to create units. It's dumb to bring my 2k list and then my opponent creates another 500 points. Second let psykers pick spells. Third no more super heavies in regular 40K

This. Thousand Sons have AP 3 bolters. They are not competitive. There's even lots of stuff that they can't even touch. Anything over AV 10 or T7, for starters.

Most of the desirable targets are beyond their touch. Wolfstars, invis centstars, gladius, Riptide wing, Eldar bikes. None of those lists care about 1K sons.