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 kodos wrote:

The movement stat thing is a silly fad rule based on some past edition or other game people band-wagoned without actually thinking about

So the, one movement rule for all, based on a 15mm WW2 game is better to represent different non-human factions in 28mm Mass Skirmish than an actual per hnit value?

For the same reason WS and BS should be cut from the profile. Why should I remember different WS/BS values and a chart, if a simple "everyone hits on 4+" and 20 special rules would have the same effect.


And I thought about it a long time and and works out a lot better also for balancing.

Indeed - pretty much everyone hits on a 4+ these days anyway. High WS is poor and units hthat should have excellent WS- Dark Eldar Wyches don't.

A Move stat is something that be a good ting to bring back.

 kodos wrote:
20 models in WM/H is a small game, a standard 50 point infantry list has much more models.

But a movement value also worked in warhammer with 100+ models per side, so why should it not work with 40k.

A standard 50 point list is still around 40-50+ max, and even then 20-40 of those will have the same movement rate. It worked in Warhammer, and look what happened to that

Anyways, that's an aside. My bigger issue with the movement stat is: why? what does it change that other special rules or stats could not do? Faster? Okay, give them run and charge. Or just flat out have two character types like they do already: Infantry moves 6", Beasts move 12".

I don't see the point in having army wide different move blocks and I think it moves away from the balance of the game. Would Termagaunt swarms or Harlequins be that much better if they had a higher movement? Unlikely, as they're still super fragile or overcosted or don't shoot as good as other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 kodos wrote:

The movement stat thing is a silly fad rule based on some past edition or other game people band-wagoned without actually thinking about

So the, one movement rule for all, based on a 15mm WW2 game is better to represent different non-human factions in 28mm Mass Skirmish than an actual per hnit value?

For the same reason WS and BS should be cut from the profile. Why should I remember different WS/BS values and a chart, if a simple "everyone hits on 4+" and 20 special rules would have the same effect.


And I thought about it a long time and and works out a lot better also for balancing.

Indeed - pretty much everyone hits on a 4+ these days anyway. High WS is poor and units hthat should have excellent WS- Dark Eldar Wyches don't.

A Move stat is something that be a good ting to bring back.

I disagree. Having a high WS serves it's purpose, case in point: Flesh Hounds hit tac marines on 3's, while they hit back on 4's. Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes will be hit on 5's by most things, even a knight, so them having a high WS adds some survivability.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have to disagree with the movement stat. I think giving everyone different movement speeds is a waste versus the everyone moves 6". Change everything, but keep that the same, as it makes balancing the game easier if it's "every model moves 6", unless it has a special rule".

WarmaHordes has every model have a different movement, but this works because you only have around 20 guys, not 60+.

You haven't played WM/Hordes much have you? 20 models is laughably small in that infantry swarm game.

And movement stat didn't slow down 40k 2nd ed nor FB in...Well any edition.

My bigger issue with the movement stat is: why?

it removes a lot of uneeded stuff from the game while just adding a single number to the units profile which would be the same for most units of a single faction.

all rules for different unit types ard only there because the "everything slow moves 6 inch, everything fast 12 inch and very fast moves 18 inch" was not viable.
And there is still no difference between factions and a super agile alien runs with the same speed as the armoured slow behemoth.

of course random movement and charge distance solved the problem but not very well.
but this is the general solution to all problems, just add a random dice roll and everything is fine.

I disagree. Having a high WS serves it's purpose, case in point: Flesh Hounds hit tac marines on 3's, while they hit back on 4's. Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes will be hit on 5's by most things, even a knight, so them having a high WS adds some survivability.

But what does WS add to the game what a 4+ for all and so e special rules cannot do?
Why should there be a WS and not just a special rule to hit on 3+, one to get hit on 5+ etc?

compare WS everytkme and for every model just to slow things down?

add more durability to literally everything, or lower ap /str and/or increase toughness. maybe increase cover saves like ruins 3+ forests 4+ currently at least in my meta anything out of a transport or vehicle disappears fromt he table.

No more formations that give free wargear/ transports. sorry but showing up with 300 points that does not cost any points is not ok.

nerf force / ID / remove from play to mean surer 2 / 2 / 3 wounds, give all mc a 5 or 6+ inv save (or at least for tyranids because dear god do they need it, it would also help less used MC from other codexes ) while it might be only on one codex a warboss should probably be a MC IC they are fluff wise supposed to dwarf even a space marine, they are after all the biggest, meanest and greenest orks.

I disagree. Having a high WS serves it's purpose, case in point: Flesh Hounds hit tac marines on 3's, while they hit back on 4's. Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes will be hit on 5's by most things, even a knight, so them having a high WS adds some survivability.

Way way too much stuff now has WS4 - Eldar Guardians for one.

A Avatar of Khaine, a BloodThirster of Khorne or similar still miss on a 1 or 2 - really impressive - had plenty of times when elite CC with WS 7+ Miss completely when they attack.

Of Course high BS gets re-rolls cos "reasons"

OH and everything Kodos said - truth.

 kodos wrote:

My bigger issue with the movement stat is: why?

it removes a lot of uneeded stuff from the game while just adding a single number to the units profile which would be the same for most units of a single faction.

all rules for different unit types ard only there because the "everything slow moves 6 inch, everything fast 12 inch and very fast moves 18 inch" was not viable.
And there is still no difference between factions and a super agile alien runs with the same speed as the armoured slow behemoth.

How so? I still don't see what special rules/unneeded stuff it removes and what is the benefit. Please give examples. In regards to my claim, I think if we leave the movement phase alone, that gives more freedom to balance the shooting and assault phases, as the movement phase is generally fine.

If we revamp the movement, then I think the whole game would need to be redone, rather than some phase overhauls and power level balancing.

I disagree. Having a high WS serves it's purpose, case in point: Flesh Hounds hit tac marines on 3's, while they hit back on 4's. Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes will be hit on 5's by most things, even a knight, so them having a high WS adds some survivability.

But what does WS add to the game what a 4+ for all and so e special rules cannot do?
Why should there be a WS and not just a special rule to hit on 3+, one to get hit on 5+ etc?

compare WS everytkme and for every model just to slow things down?

Because it's silly that my High Lord Daemon Prince, Terror of the Galaxy, can get hit on 4+'s by a run of the mill Guardsmen. It's the same problem I have with AoS. Sure, the concept works fine, but A) there's more benefit to just bringing bodies than special guys and B) it totally kills the story aspect for me.

Feel free to adjust WS to 1, 2, or 3, so a 1 hits a 3 only on 5's, but leave the core idea alone.

Because it's silly that my High Lord Daemon Prince, Terror of the Galaxy

But its ok that he misses a Gretchin in combat a third of the time? Rather than say having a straight 2+.

 Mr Morden wrote:

I disagree. Having a high WS serves it's purpose, case in point: Flesh Hounds hit tac marines on 3's, while they hit back on 4's. Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes will be hit on 5's by most things, even a knight, so them having a high WS adds some survivability.

Way way too much stuff now has WS4 - Eldar Guardians for one.

A Avatar of Khaine, a BloodThirster of Khorne or similar still miss on a 1 or 2 - really impressive - had plenty of times when elite CC with WS 7+ Miss completely when they attack.

Of Course high BS gets re-rolls cos "reasons"

OH and everything Kodos said - truth.

So how about adjusting the WS to only three values, a low, medium, or high, but leaving the core value alone. I.E. Low hit's High only on a 5+ Second, I'm totally fine with WS getting rerolls. Third, Yeah, I've had a Bloodthirster whiff attacks, but that's the curse of dice games, it's random chance.

Because it's silly that my High Lord Daemon Prince, Terror of the Galaxy, can get hit on 4+'s by a run of the mill Guardsmen.

But it is ok for you that he moves at the same speed as a plague zombie?

How so? I still don't see what special rules/unneeded stuff it removes and what is the benefit. Please give examples

I am not familiar with all english terms so there may be wrong names but:
slow and purposeful, just give the unit a lower value instead of a random dice roll and remove this special rule

charge: units charge one or two times their movement value instead of a random roll (and no need to have different unit types for beast, cavalry etc)

run: units just move two times their movement value in the movement phase (no random dice roll and no need to move units two times)

no special rules needed to allow shooting after a fast movement (just give those units a higher movement value).

If we revamp the movement, then I think the whole game would need to be redone, rather than some phase overhauls and power level balancing.

this need to be done anyway, edition 6.2 will have no future and I guess that GW will change 40k to be more like AoS.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because it's silly that my High Lord Daemon Prince, Terror of the Galaxy, can get hit on 4+'s by a run of the mill Guardsmen. It's the same problem I have with AoS. Sure, the concept works fine, but A) there's more benefit to just bringing bodies than special guys and B) it totally kills the story aspect for me.

Feel free to adjust WS to 1, 2, or 3, so a 1 hits a 3 only on 5's, but leave the core idea alone.

Bwahahaha. You DO realize same arqument works for movement stat? Why on earth is agile alien just as fast as lumbering terminator or heaven forbid living corpse barely holding together...

Once upon a time, there was a movement stat. Then some brilliant minds at GW decided it made stuff too complicated, and it was removed. Countless special rules have been added since then just to make it up for it. Because of course, a zillion special rules > a single stat when it comes to streamlining the game!

uh, guys? you know grav weapons aren't that good, right? they are worth the 35 points you pay for them, because of the situationality of them. You salty marine players just need to toughen up a bit.

I'd be fine with the re-introduction of the movement stat. If WHFB were able to remember that stat than so can 40k players. It's just 1 more stat to remember for a unit, not that complicated.

 kodos wrote:

Because it's silly that my High Lord Daemon Prince, Terror of the Galaxy, can get hit on 4+'s by a run of the mill Guardsmen.

But it is ok for you that he moves at the same speed as a plague zombie?

No, he flies at 12". But that's another thing entirely. As a Monstrous Creature, yeah I'd be fine with him moving at 6", assuming he didn't die to a stiff breeze, as most T5-6 MCs do.

How so? I still don't see what special rules/unneeded stuff it removes and what is the benefit. Please give examples

I am not familiar with all english terms so there may be wrong names but:
slow and purposeful, just give the unit a lower value instead of a random dice roll and remove this special rule

charge: units charge one or two times their movement value instead of a random roll (and no need to have different unit types for beast, cavalry etc)

run: units just move two times their movement value in the movement phase (no random dice roll and no need to move units two times)

no special rules needed to allow shooting after a fast movement (just give those units a higher movement value).

I will give that to you, it's an interesting concept. How would you apply it to vehicles?

If we revamp the movement, then I think the whole game would need to be redone, rather than some phase overhauls and power level balancing.

this need to be done anyway, edition 6.2 will have no future and I guess that GW will change 40k to be more like AoS.

40k is literally the only game I know without a movement stat. It's really not that hard to remember and it gives armies a different feel with very little complication.

I will give that to you, it's an interesting concept. How would you apply it to vehicles?

the same like for every other unit.
no need to add different rules for vehicles, they just get a higher base movement.

e.g.:
double movement in the movement phase (to replace running) prevents the unit from shooting or charge

Guard Soldier, Movement 4"
Chimera Transport: 8"
Vendetta: 12"

So the soldier can move 4" and shoot and/or cgarge (depends on the weapon) or move 8", the chimera moves 8" and shoot or 16" and the vendetta moves up to 12" and shoot or up to 24"

if the chimera moved 8" it can also charge 8" in the assault phase (=ramming or tank shock)

 kodos wrote:

I will give that to you, it's an interesting concept. How would you apply it to vehicles?

the same like for every other unit.
no need to add different rules for vehicles, they just get a higher base movement.

e.g.:
double movement in the movement phase (to replace running) prevents the unit from shooting or charge

Guard Soldier, Movement 4"
Chimera Transport: 8"
Vendetta: 12"

So the soldier can move 4" and shoot and/or cgarge (depends on the weapon) or move 8", the chimera moves 8" and shoot or 16" and the vendetta moves up to 12" and shoot or up to 24"

if the chimera moved 8" it can also charge 8" in the assault phase (=ramming or tank shock)

This seems reminiscent of Warmachine (not that that's bad). Now they play on a 4x4. Would you consider imposing the same restrictions? 6X4 now seems big with only 4" movement.

Warmachine use something similar, but this is more inspired from SST.
And no, 6x4 is not to big with 4" as long as all standard weapons have 24" (just moving and shooting is decreased in range).

I would give humans 4", Orks and Marines 5", Eldar a mix of 4 to 6 and Tyranids from 4 to 7.

PS: I think the table is alredy to small for a good game and I would reduce weapon range as well to prevent units from shooting across the table without moving (placing units 24" away from each other at the start of game and give them 24" range does not work ou well)

 jreilly89 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

I will give that to you, it's an interesting concept. How would you apply it to vehicles?

the same like for every other unit.
no need to add different rules for vehicles, they just get a higher base movement.

e.g.:
double movement in the movement phase (to replace running) prevents the unit from shooting or charge

Guard Soldier, Movement 4"
Chimera Transport: 8"
Vendetta: 12"

So the soldier can move 4" and shoot and/or cgarge (depends on the weapon) or move 8", the chimera moves 8" and shoot or 16" and the vendetta moves up to 12" and shoot or up to 24"

if the chimera moved 8" it can also charge 8" in the assault phase (=ramming or tank shock)

This seems reminiscent of Warmachine (not that that's bad). Now they play on a 4x4. Would you consider imposing the same restrictions? 6X4 now seems big with only 4" movement.

I could see it.. though I disagree with a guardsman only moving 4. I would say make things start at 6" but some very fast or large units move more. a space marine might be able to move 7 or 8, a elder unit to represent the speed moves 7-8 as well. all monstrous creatures due to their size start at 10, some move up to 12-13. dreads and other walkers should probably also be faster than a person so 8-9 etc.

What about more love for chaos? we don't even have 7th edition yet. we need to make csm on par with normal marines and make slaanesh more viable because lore wise slaanesh should be the strongest and most corrupting god

I'm not a player anymore more of a collector but here is my brutal approach!
1) The rulebook should be ONLY a rulebook.All non rule related material should be scrapped reducing the overall cost.Well, we can hope!
2) There should be basic rules for each army included so each army is completely playable and balanced from the word go.Also see below.
3) Codexes should be scrapped! The cost is ridiculous for the amount of information that is included;this could be included in each weekly WD.Imagine actually having up to date information on a weekly basis rather than having to wait years for a codex update which is normally out of date when the latest rules appear! Is it worth buying a codex that has exactly the same information as the last codex with only minor rules changes/yet you are charged up to £35 to read them?
I'm not a rules expert by any stretch of the imagination but I've always found about 75% of the rulebook pointless/ all the things like building and painting are covered in all GW's stuff,do they really need to regurgitate it in the rules as well?
Told you it was brutal!

Alot of people already said so much but this is one thing I would LOVE to see.

I want cover saves gone (this will have to rework alot of things tho)

Instead of cover saves, I would much rather see negative to your BS for shooting into cover.

Templates and Flamers work the same as they do now, Templates -1/2/3 to BS on scatter dice, Flamers/templates ignoring this rule.
BS, -3 max.
Night Vision ignores Stealth (not shrouded)
Grenades Ignore this rule too.


A unit with Stealth, Shrouded and in Ruins will have a -3 when being shot at, A unit can never go below BS 1.

This will really change the game and make alot of the Shooting armies hurt, but it will lead more to better movement and strategy than Mass spam High S High assault guns.

I know it sounds crazy But I feel it would work wonders for the game.

AutomatedMiner wrote:
uh, guys? you know grav weapons aren't that good, right? they are worth the 35 points you pay for them, because of the situationality of them. You salty marine players just need to toughen up a bit.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. They have been proven to be mathematically the single most undercosted upgrade in the game. No other weapon is better at killing monstrous/gargantuan creatures, MEQs, or TEQs. Grav makes things like maulerfiends, who are otherwis quite good, useless. Transports from rhinos up to spartan assault tanks get shut down instantly from 1 grav cannon; even dying outright with some lucky rolls.

There is no situationality to them, they are the HAMMER of the space marine force and the reason why marines are a top tier army. Even basic grav guns are so good they pretty much eliminate the need for plasma.

If you don't believe me bring a grav spam battle company against a meta double wraithknight eldar list run by an average eldar player (top tier eldar players are crazy) and have a bucket ready to collect his tiers.

" Even basic grav guns are so good they pretty much eliminate the need for plasma. "

The demons and Orks thank you for your shortsightedness. Basic grav guns are a real trade off, since they suck out loud vs vehicles.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I could see it.. though I disagree with a guardsman only moving 4. I would say make things start at 6" but some very fast or large units move more. a space marine might be able to move 7 or 8, a elder unit to represent the speed moves 7-8 as well. all monstrous creatures due to their size start at 10, some move up to 12-13. dreads and other walkers should probably also be faster than a person so 8-9 etc.

A Guardsman moving 4'' is fine. A Marine should move 5'' due to the extra size plus the speed enhancements of power armor. Eldar should move 5'' for most units, and perhaps 6'' for a few selected ones. Dreadnoughts are implied by fluff to be not really fast, they're more walking tanks than agile mecha, 6'' perhaps and that's it.

In order to balance some movement capacity decreases, you can simply re-introduce the old penalty for long-range shooting: units shooting at more than half their max range have a -1 to hit. That way you don't even need to reduce firing ranges because you're already making all shooting weapons less efficient at long ranges.

Also Running shouldn't be random unless doing it through difficult terrain. Under ordinary circunstances, you Run as fast as you can Move, and that's it.

 Korinov wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I could see it.. though I disagree with a guardsman only moving 4. I would say make things start at 6" but some very fast or large units move more. a space marine might be able to move 7 or 8, a elder unit to represent the speed moves 7-8 as well. all monstrous creatures due to their size start at 10, some move up to 12-13. dreads and other walkers should probably also be faster than a person so 8-9 etc.

A Guardsman moving 4'' is fine. A Marine should move 5'' due to the extra size plus the speed enhancements of power armor. Eldar should move 5'' for most units, and perhaps 6'' for a few selected ones. Dreadnoughts are implied by fluff to be not really fast, they're more walking tanks than agile mecha, 6'' perhaps and that's it.

In order to balance some movement capacity decreases, you can simply re-introduce the old penalty for long-range shooting: units shooting at more than half their max range have a -1 to hit. That way you don't even need to reduce firing ranges because you're already making all shooting weapons less efficient at long ranges.

Also Running shouldn't be random unless doing it through difficult terrain. Under ordinary circunstances, you Run as fast as you can Move, and that's it.

Starts to sound like it would be better off to simply go back to where said rules were

2nd ed with most of the persistent effects off is actually fairly fast to play. Biggest issue is bunch of new units that needs statting up but apart from that it offers better rules from the get-go.

Take out the, everyone can summon deamons thing?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Alot of people already said so much but this is one thing I would LOVE to see.

I want cover saves gone (this will have to rework alot of things tho)

Instead of cover saves, I would much rather see negative to your BS for shooting into cover.

Templates and Flamers work the same as they do now, Templates -1/2/3 to BS on scatter dice, Flamers/templates ignoring this rule.
BS, -3 max.
Night Vision ignores Stealth (not shrouded)
Grenades Ignore this rule too.


A unit with Stealth, Shrouded and in Ruins will have a -3 when being shot at, A unit can never go below BS 1.

This will really change the game and make alot of the Shooting armies hurt, but it will lead more to better movement and strategy than Mass spam High S High assault guns.

I know it sounds crazy But I feel it would work wonders for the game.

I've always thought cover saves should work something like this. Get rid of ignores cover shenanigans that many factions have access to, and this would be good.

Don't make the mistake and get from one extrem to other.

Cover Bonus should be split into an Armour Bonus (instead of an additional save) and a BS modifier.

Terrain, Aegis give an armour bonus while jink, stealth etc has a BS modifier.