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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:11:59
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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Matt.Kingsley wrote:Honestly, if the Move stats gets reintroduced it'll be Eldar, probably Marines and hopefully Slaanesh Daemons and Tryranids that end up being better with 5"-8" compared to Guard, Tau, Orks, etc with 4".
If I were looking at purely infantry models, I would place Orks and Tyrandis (e.g. Boyz and Guants respectively) in a category with a movement range greater than or equal to that of a Space Marine, especially given they're both supposed to be predominantly assault-orientated armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:27:40
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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IllumiNini wrote:If I were looking at purely infantry models, I would place Orks and Tyrandis (e.g. Boyz and Guants respectively) in a category with a movement range greater than or equal to that of a Space Marine, especially given they're both supposed to be predominantly assault-orientated armies.
Why should basic orks and tyrranids move faster than a space marine? He's 14 ppm. What that pays for is, among other things, an all around above average statline. That includes movement. I might grant that orks and tyrranids should be faster than humans. But not space marines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:31:52
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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Traditio wrote:IllumiNini wrote:If I were looking at purely infantry models, I would place Orks and Tyrandis (e.g. Boyz and Guants respectively) in a category with a movement range greater than or equal to that of a Space Marine, especially given they're both supposed to be predominantly assault-orientated armies. Why should basic orks and tyrranids move faster than a space marine? He's 14 ppm. What that pays for is, among other things, an all around above average statline. That includes movement. I might grant that orks and tyrranids should be faster than humans. But not space marines. The important thing to note here is that a normal Space Marine is 14 Points/Model in the current system where all infantry (by default) move 6". So that base points cost does not currently account for differing default movement speeds. It does increase the points cost (generally speaking) if you want to move further (e.g. paying 3 points/model for Jump Packs), but that's not quite the same thing as the proposed movement stat.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/05 00:33:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:33:42
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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IllumiNini wrote:The important thing to note here is that a normal Space Marine is 14 Points/Model in the current system where all infantry (by default) move 6". So that base points cost does not currently account for movement.
Fair enough, though my general point stands: 14 ppm, among other things, is for the above average stat line. If there were a movement stat, why should my 14 ppm tactical marine move slower than a 6 ppm ork?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:36:01
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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Traditio wrote:IllumiNini wrote:The important thing to note here is that a normal Space Marine is 14 Points/Model in the current system where all infantry (by default) move 6". So that base points cost does not currently account for movement.
Fair enough, though my general point stands: 14 ppm, among other things, is for the above average stat line. If there were a movement stat, why should my 14 ppm tactical marine move slower than a 6 ppm ork?
Well in all honesty, that also assumes that no more balancing is done. If an Ork was suddenly able to move faster than a Space Marine, I imagine he would cost a bit more than 6 points/model (whether or not he'd cost more than the Space Marine is something I can't comment on because it'd be impossible to say).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:39:23
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Hormagaunts & Genestealers should definitely be faster than Marines (and iirc were back when 40k had a movement stat).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:52:44
Subject: Re:If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Missouri
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Might as well not even bother trying to argue on this point. Nothing should be faster than Marines, nothing should be more resilient than Marines, nothing should be stronger, nothing should have better firepower or outperform them in close combat...SPEHSS MAHREENS should be unstoppable because that's literally what the fething fluff says about them. "But I pay 14ppm!" ad nauseam.
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Desubot wrote:Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 00:59:12
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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IllumiNini wrote:Well in all honesty, that also assumes that no more balancing is done. If an Ork was suddenly able to move faster than a Space Marine, I imagine he would cost a bit more than 6 points/model (whether or not he'd cost more than the Space Marine is something I can't comment on because it'd be impossible to say).
That's just it, though. Do you really want orks costing more than 6 ppm? Orks should be stronger and faster than regular humans. They should be roughly as strong as (but no stronger than) space marines (I think it's silly that orks have a 3 in the S part of the statline). They should probably be faster than normal humans (but maybe not as fast, and certainly no faster than, space marines).
An Ork boy is not an elite infantry.
People will mock me for saying this, but there is no sense in which a space marine (whether tactical, assault or devastator) should be outmatched by any troop choice of another codex. A space marine is, for all intents and purposes, already an elite. There are no "regular" troops* in the space marines codex.
Even space marines scouts are essentially Captain America on steroids.
*Except servitors.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/06/05 01:04:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 01:11:32
Subject: Re:If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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Sidstyler wrote:Might as well not even bother trying to argue on this point. Nothing should be faster than Marines, nothing should be more resilient than Marines, nothing should be stronger, nothing should have better firepower or outperform them in close combat...SPEHSS MAHREENS should be unstoppable because that's literally what the fething fluff says about them. "But I pay 14ppm!" ad nauseam.
I can't really tell if you're joking (not one of my strong suits by any means), but I agree that it's not really a point that should be argued mainly because we're trying to add in this Movement Characteristic and then assume all else is equal so we can argue about it. Doesn't really make sense.
Traditio wrote:People will mock me for saying this, but there is no sense in which a space marine (whether tactical, assault or devastator) should be outmatched by any troop choice of another codex. A space marine is, for all intents and purposes, already an elite. There are no "regular" troops* in the space marines codex.
For Space Marines not being out-classed by any other type of infantry is not correct if you ask me. The way I've always understood it is that on a person-by-person basis, Space Marines were designed to be better at dealing with the threats that are out there (because they're stronger, faster, bigger, smarter, etc than normal humans), but that doesn't mean they outclass absolutely everything that already out there (it just means that they're better and more efficient at doing it).
I would say more, but I feel this topic is best kept for another thread.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 02:18:35
Subject: Re:If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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IllumiNini wrote:
For Space Marines not being out-classed by any other type of infantry is not correct if you ask me. The way I've always understood it is that on a person-by-person basis, Space Marines were designed to be better at dealing with the threats that are out there (because they're stronger, faster, bigger, smarter, etc than normal humans), but that doesn't mean they outclass absolutely everything that already out there (it just means that they're better and more efficient at doing it).
I would say more, but I feel this topic is best kept for another thread.
I agree... Harlequins, based on their fluff, are insanely fast, hit you before you even realize it, and then flip away. Nearly every book of fluff that I've read, if there's a POV from an Eldar, it's always the "brutal, stupid and slow Mon'keigh" they are fighting, and personally speaking, that should be reflected in stats in some way.
currently, Eldar and Harlequins reflect that by a higher initiative. While I think that having an identical movement characteristic for all basic troops is wrong, I think that there are definitely things which move faster/better than Marines. Other balancing factors include the facts that basically all space elves are T3, while marines are T4. That is fine. I think that even giving a "move" characteristic, if we say your standard SM troop choice is a movement of 6, it is balanced to say that a guardsmen is a 4, basic Ork is a 6, Gaunt/Gants are 8 (they look like dogs/insects which can scuttle ridiculously fast), and Eldar could probably be a 6 or 7 movement...
simply put, altering a movement characteristic of troops and units can bring out some new strategies, while they would undoubtedly highlight other balancing factors.
Speaking of Quins, I kind of wish that "Hit and Run" was resolved at initiative step.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/01 17:56:40
Subject: Re:If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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I think in terms of speed Eldar should indeed be faster then space marines. gaunts should likewise mnove faster. Orks however shouldn't be faster. they should be as fast. or even slightly slower.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 03:57:40
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Pious Palatine
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The movement stat thing seems dumb, I thought the point of 8th wishlisting was Streamlined rules and talking about how every other edition was better than whatever one we're playing (14th ed is my favorite)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/05 03:58:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 04:08:46
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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ERJAK wrote:The movement stat thing seems dumb, I thought the point of 8th wishlisting was Streamlined rules and talking about how every other edition was better than whatever one we're playing (14th ed is my favorite)
The movement characteristic isn't dumb. If it were, then the models in 40K (assuming 7th edition rules and no house rules) would never move anywhere. Technically every model has a movement characteristic, but it isn't displayed as such but instead it's been generalised and put in the BRB. For example, the default movement characteristic for all infantry models is 6", but we don't think of it as a 'movement characteristic' because its a rule in the BRB rather than a characteristic listed as part of every unit.
The introduction of a movement characteristic on a unit-by-unit basis (which is what I think is being suggested) allows for more freedom and differentiation in how each individual unit moves.
And Streamlining the rules may be the purpose of your 8th Edition wish-listing, but it doesn't have to be for everyone else.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 05:34:32
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Been Around the Block
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Balance and significant role for player skill. Neither of these are a part of the game now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 05:37:07
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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IllumiNini wrote:
The introduction of a movement characteristic on a unit-by-unit basis (which is what I think is being suggested) allows for more freedom and differentiation in how each individual unit moves.
And Streamlining the rules may be the purpose of your 8th Edition wish-listing, but it doesn't have to be for everyone else.
It's what I'm suggesting.... Ie, if an Ork boy has a move characteristic of 7", then a mega nob (wearing heavier armor) could have a move of 6, etc.
Having played a ton of AoS, it really is streamlined, because once you begin to really know your army, you don't really need to look at the unit entry every single movement phase and things move faster.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 09:44:53
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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a movement value will reduce the amount of special rules and unit types and add a lot more possibilities to give every faction a unique play style.
basic movement rules would be reduced to:
- every unit can make a single (up to max movement value) or double move (up to 2 times the movement value).
- a unit making a double move cannot shoot or charge
special rules:
- fast, the unit count as making a single move no matter how far it moved
- slow, the unit can never make a double move
- Special move, units with a special move can use it instead of a Standard movement. It has to move the full distance. Jump (ignore terrain restrictions during movement) etc.
For movement values, Standard Marines should have 5, Terminators 4, Centurions 4 and slow, Bikes would be 6 and fast, Assault Squad get Jump 12, etc.
Guard would be 4 (transport tanks 6), Orks 5, Tyranids get from 4 (Big Bugs) to 7 (Liktor), Eldar 6 and Necrons get 3 or 2 (but have Portals and Flyers to compensate it).
But as long as GW will do the rules, they will mess it up any way and keep it simple (everything would have 6" in the profile and special rules and unit types would increase or decrase the profile value)
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 10:29:49
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
UK
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Yeah reintroducing the movement stat would provide a massive opportunity to simplify the rules by removing a tonne of special rules.
The way your written it up there, it would also remove the need for running in the shooting phase (and get rid of a dice roll)
It could even be used to simplify charging.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 10:54:14
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Grumpy Longbeard
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Traditio wrote:Why should basic orks and tyrranids move faster than a space marine? He's 14 ppm. What that pays for is, among other things, an all around above average statline. That includes movement. I might grant that orks and tyrranids should be faster than humans. But not space marines.
Given how common SM players are, I would like to see space marines be the average and everything based off that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 11:05:11
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation
Calixis sector / Screaming Vortex
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I wish that exploding vehicles had a 2d6 blast radius, and had a randomised AP.
I'd love if when you destroyed a flyer the rules for crash and burn always took effect (you know with the deviating blast dealing a pile of hits?) instead of only when it explodes.
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CSM
Militarum Tempestus
Dark Angels (Deathwing)
Inquisition |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 11:14:22
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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DarkBlack wrote: Traditio wrote:Why should basic orks and tyrranids move faster than a space marine? He's 14 ppm. What that pays for is, among other things, an all around above average statline. That includes movement. I might grant that orks and tyrranids should be faster than humans. But not space marines. Given how common SM players are, I would like to see space marines be the average and everything based off that. But that contradicts the fluff. Space Marines are meant to be exceptional. One could compensate by making Space Marines themselves higher than average, but introducing a another type of unit that's either a chapter serf or a Space Marine in training, that is not a new as a scout but not as experienced / developed as a true marine. Black templars had a similar system,where their scouts / neophytes, were not organized into scout companies, but instead accompanied a more experienced marine in battle. So with my idea, most of the army would consist of chapter serfs / neophytes / fledgling marines / whatever, and the true marines would be the absurd things you see all the time in the fluff.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/05 11:30:22
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 11:24:06
Subject: Re:If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Luke_Prowler wrote: Korinov wrote:Ironically bringing back the Movement stat, at this point, would be a nice way of removing special rules from the game. That said a guardsman should move 4'', not 6''
I think this is pretty much the reason why I don't like the movement stat. because the second it gets introduce, there's going to be some army with a jumped up movement stat and that'll just throw the movement balance out the window as they dance around the field and never be able to be caught in melee or with short ranged weapons
Nah that ain't going to be problem. IG isn't bothered by not being able to catch eldar in CC. Who goes there anyway?
Bigger issue is gunline becoming even more of to go. Why waste shooting when you move mere 4"?
Will need reducing shooting power to encourage moving
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 12:50:05
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Grumpy Longbeard
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: DarkBlack wrote: Traditio wrote:Why should basic orks and tyrranids move faster than a space marine? He's 14 ppm. What that pays for is, among other things, an all around above average statline. That includes movement. I might grant that orks and tyrranids should be faster than humans. But not space marines.
Given how common SM players are, I would like to see space marines be the average and everything based off that.
But that contradicts the fluff. Space Marines are meant to be exceptional.
One could compensate by making Space Marines themselves higher than average, but introducing a another type of unit that's either a chapter serf or a Space Marine in training, that is not a new as a scout but not as experienced / developed as a true marine.
Black templars had a similar system,where their scouts / neophytes, were not organized into scout companies, but instead accompanied a more experienced marine in battle.
So with my idea, most of the army would consist of chapter serfs / neophytes / fledgling marines / whatever, and the true marines would be the absurd things you see all the time in the fluff.
Not "average" as in mediocre, "the average", as in the middle from the game design point of view.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 16:23:25
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that contradicts the fluff. Space Marines are meant to be exceptional.
They are still exceptional, for humans.... which is pretty much how the fluff is. Thing is, most of the other races have something that is as good as, or "better" than marines. Automatically Appended Next Post: CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that contradicts the fluff. Space Marines are meant to be exceptional.
They are still exceptional, for humans.... which is pretty much how the fluff is. Thing is, most of the other races have something that is as good as, or "better" than marines.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/05 16:29:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 19:55:41
Subject: Re:If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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More grimdark.
Rules will be crap anyway.
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From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/05 22:09:16
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Dakka Veteran
Eastern Washington
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Fast orks? Orks have a 2 Int because they're slow. Intellectually and physically slow. This is/was made up for by their toughness.
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4,000 Word Bearers 1,500 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/06 00:19:40
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Pious Palatine
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General Kroll wrote:Yeah reintroducing the movement stat would provide a massive opportunity to simplify the rules by removing a tonne of special rules. The way your written it up there, it would also remove the need for running in the shooting phase (and get rid of a dice roll) It could even be used to simplify charging. So instead of having to remember 3-5 special rules you have to memorize the movement stat of every model in the game; because remember, there are a LOT of units in different codexes that would get different movement ranges. There's no way ALL eldar would all be 7.1783 inches or w/e because A. they would either have to STILL HAVE special rules for different units to move at different speeds, or have every unit have a different movement stat (Banshees are 8 Dark reapers are 6 Warp spiders are 14 or w/e etc) B. if they did make every unit in a codex move the same distance then you'd still have dozens of codexes and dataslates worth of movement stats to look up/memorize everytime you include either play with or against a new army which is even worse than the system we have now. C. It would send balance spinning even further out of control, assault marines aren't great when they move 12 inches, moving 6-8 would make them paperweights, warp spiders are super broken moving 20+ inches per turn but moving 7.5 they wouldn't even be useful as a deepstrike bomb unit, not to mention how silly it would be to have a stormsurge shuffle the tau's 3-5" inches every turn or wraiths that can only move whatever incredibly low distance necrons would have. This also makes drop pods even better for getting around the system. TL: DR the movement stat is stupid because you'd either have to do it unit by unit which would be the absolute freaking SAME as the special rules system, or uniform within codexes which would be dumb because it puts any unit that relies on having high movement to be useful into the pyrovore/hellion category, you still have to memorize every armies movement stat, people would bitch constantly about who should be faster than who (case in point HERE), AND It blandifies units( if every unit moves the same distance it comes down to either who has the mathmatically best shooting, or MAYBE in a VERY FAST army who has mathematically best assault.) The movement stat thing is a silly fad rule based on some past edition or other game people band-wagoned without actually thinking about.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/06 00:20:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/06 01:10:03
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ERJAK wrote:
TL: DR the movement stat is stupid because you'd either have to do it unit by unit which would be the absolute freaking SAME as the special rules system, or uniform within codexes which would be dumb because it puts any unit that relies on having high movement to be useful into the pyrovore/hellion category, you still have to memorize every armies movement stat, people would bitch constantly about who should be faster than who (case in point HERE), AND It blandifies units( if every unit moves the same distance it comes down to either who has the mathmatically best shooting, or MAYBE in a VERY FAST army who has mathematically best assault.)
The movement stat thing is a silly fad rule based on some past edition or other game people band-wagoned without actually thinking about.
Except that it really isn't stupid. AoS has this exact thing. If you don't memorize your unit's stats, as long as you have your stuff mildly organized, you can find the unit in question in 10 seconds or less. And I'd guarantee that you're not gonna sit there and try to memorize literally every single unit's movement, because odds are you aren't going to use every unit from your codex. As a personal example, I never have, and never will use Scouts in any marine army. As such, I don't need to memorize a theoretical movement characteristic, and won't because it's a waste of time.
I have thought about this, and it isn't some band wagon idea. It's one that works quite well for a number of games, and works well for a GW game to boot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/06 05:56:31
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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The movement stat thing is a silly fad rule based on some past edition or other game people band-wagoned without actually thinking about
So the, one movement rule for all, based on a 15mm WW2 game is better to represent different non-human factions in 28mm Mass Skirmish than an actual per hnit value?
For the same reason WS and BS should be cut from the profile. Why should I remember different WS/ BS values and a chart, if a simple "everyone hits on 4+" and 20 special rules would have the same effect.
And I thought about it a long time and and works out a lot better also for balancing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/06 06:00:24
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/06 14:29:03
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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I have to disagree with the movement stat. I think giving everyone different movement speeds is a waste versus the everyone moves 6". Change everything, but keep that the same, as it makes balancing the game easier if it's "every model moves 6", unless it has a special rule". WarmaHordes has every model have a different movement, but this works because you only have around 20 guys, not 60+.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/06 14:29:17
~1.5k
Successful Trades: Ashrog (1), Iron35 (1), Rathryan (3), Leth (1), Eshm (1), Zeke48 (1), Gorkamorka12345 (1),
Melevolence (2), Ascalam (1), Swanny318, (1) ScootyPuffJunior, (1) LValx (1), Jim Solo (1), xSoulgrinderx (1), Reese (1), Pretre (1) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/06 14:41:25
Subject: If 8th Edition will be real, what do you wan to see in it?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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20 models in WM/H is a small game, a standard 50 point infantry list has much more models.
But a movement value also worked in warhammer with 100+ models per side, so why should it not work with 40k.
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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