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Clubs have existed in the UK since long before games shops.

I think it's a different culture in terms of distance and public transport and the availability of public spaces like pub function rooms, parish halls, community halls, sports clubs and so on.

Do you have parish halls and community halls in the USA?

Why pay a shopkeeper for table space if you can club together with friends to make your own space?

I suspect that actually when we talk about the US based shop based game culture we mean the GW based culture. There are plenty of historical clubs in the USA from what I have read and they aren't playing in the massive network of historical game shops.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

I suspect that actually when we talk about the US based shop based game culture we mean the GW based culture.

To be honest, I think "Magic The Gathering" has more to thank for this, than GW.

I think it worth pointing out here that Britain in general has much smaller shops than the States (from what I saw in my brief trip to Chicago)_, especially if you're in wealthier areas. There's a lot more people living here per square metre, and so commercial lets tend to be smaller for things like games shops on average.

Not only that, there's an extremely old tradition towards 'clubs' in Britain. You'll note quite a few gaming clubs take place in the local 'Working Man's Club', which are usually complete buildings with empty space/a bar that were built and used originally by the Trade Unions (and often still are) ,another sort of organisation that never really took off in the states. Many more take place in pub function rooms, pubs being a third thing the States don't really have an equivalent of.

I suspect the concept of a large bunch of blokes getting together once a week for several rounds of drinks and games of 'insert amusement of choice here' is just something that's particularly interwoven into the social fabric of the country, and gaming clubs just slot neatly into that space.

 adamsouza wrote:


The whole concept of tabletop gaming in a pub, is just an alien concept in the USA. The locations would either be too small to game in, or more like a restaurant, and not willing to rent out table space to people not eating on them.

You just need to look for a regular restaurant that has a separate smaller room (or can be divided with a wall) and ask. Usually they don't mind a group playing there (you don't disturb the regular customers on the other side) either for a fee or for a certain minimum in food and drink (or a fee plus a discount on stuff).

Ok I get it now on UK LGS not having enough space so other venues are used.

I'm thinking with less business on the weekdays maybe some US bars that are larger could be propositioned to host a game night.

Btw, in my own experience, we've also rented hotel conf rooms, YMCAs, coffee houses, roller skate rinks, day care centers, bingo parlors, bowling alleys, etc.

I think I live in a real anomaly in the UK, we have two mid sized flgs within a few miles, both have gaming areas which can accommodate 6-8 6 by 4 tables, and frequently every space is in use - depending what's on that night. There are also at least two clubs which meet once a week in different pubs, and another couple which meet in community spaces.

Nah its fairly similar in Essex.

London can be sporadic for FLG but obviously has plenty of clubs.

Turning this on its head a little; I sometimes get the impression that Americans are more used to expecting things to happen for them (as part of buying into something) than the UK example of clubs. Don't get me wrong that's definitely not a criticism!

Ergo a US store gets set up a community grows off of that and everything else is part of the service they have come to expect. I think I get that impression from the oft repeated "pay where you play" type disagreements which are often finished with the store closing an a general agreement that the owner was a fault for a "poor business model".

So where as US has completely embraced consumer society and past times have been rapped up in this. Conversely in the UK, where we even recently (upto the 1980's) were still living with the repercussions of Post War austerity/debt, have more recourse to community based activities (read cheaper) and thus the facilities to accommodate them. Think "Corinthian Spirit" and all that and you will see the different approach. So if you wanted something then you make it yourself, followed by the realisation that pooled resources will mean more for the community (a dangerously Socialist notion I'm sure ). UK seems more okay with this than the US.

A bit more controversially I also get the impression that Americans are less likely to set something up. Again not a dig at our US friends. All clubs in the UK that I've been to (be it sports/social/gaming) have started off with one or two individuals that drive that club and are the focus of its energies. They ultimately do the hard lifting in setting it up and finding the venue and possibly subsidising the venture for a while at least. These chaps are vital when most people, even if committed to gaming either can't or don't want to organise club activities.

These same types of people then ultimately go on to be the committee members which is a vital thing for a club to manage and ultimately continue long after they themselves have moved or even passed on.

Build it and they will come; it's how all clubs start and not just a cliché from a very enjoyable Kevin Costner film.

 notprop wrote:
Ergo a US store gets set up a community grows off of that and everything else is part of the service they have come to expect.

Pretty much this.

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There is a formula for the success of US gaming shops.
Find place with reasonable rent.
Offer 40k and MTG, and have product on the shelves.
Have 8 gaming tables with cool terrain.
Have someone playing, or at least painting miniatures there regularly, even if it is just the store staff.
Run leagues (40K, MTG, Pokemon, and some other game that is FOTM)
Have the store owner not be a douche, which is optional if someone else, who is not a douche, is actually in charge of running the leagues.


People walk in see the tables and terrain and it gets their interest.
They see happy people playing or painting.
The store staff tells them about the game and the community.
Sell them something and tell them about League Night for their chosen game.
If they become a regular, they often pick up another game as well.

Example:
There was a good WH40K and Fantasty Community here until the local gaming shop closed over a dispute with the landlord over contaminated water.
Comic book store opened up locally, and there was no one selling tabletop miniatures games within a 45 minute drive of here.
The existing 40K community convinced shop to carry 40K and give them gaming space.
The shop gave them the entire cellar and a budget for building gaming tables.
The community built 8 tables, donated and built terrain.
The store sells the product and encourages people to join the league nights.
There are currently 40K, Heroclix, X-Wing, and MTG leagues.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Ok I get it now on UK LGS not having enough space so other venues are used.
... .

It's the other way around, really.

There were games clubs in the UK long before games shops were invented and once the principle is established it makes less sense for a shop to rent a large space in the hope of tempting people away from their local club. Especially as the cost of retail space is very high in the UK.

To look at my own little town, where I am trying to set up a club, there are various possible venues: Several pubs with function rooms, various sports clubs that usually have catering facilities, a Conservative Club, several church halls and local council halls.

To rent a shop would cost £18,000+ per year for even a small one.

Gaming space in homes and shops has been mentioned. The high rents of shops doesn't help, and means a lot of people are put off starting one, or being able to keep it open.

The willingness of a few people to spend time and effort setting up a club goes a long way towards there being clubs.
Catchment may be a big factor for clubs. If there is a bus that goes past, it would be worth the half-hour trip to a local club to get in a game or two.
Limited hours also means everyone is there at the same time. A shop might be open most of the time, but how often are two random people wanting a game going to be there at the right time?

Facebook groups and forums seem to be the usual ways to arrange games for clubs.
The clubs in my area all post their sessions on a forum, and people new to the area get to see which are near them, and what gets played there. Posting a "Hello" thread on the forum with who they are and what they play usually gets us helping them find a game at a club that might suit them.

I've no idea how I found out my local clubs in the old days before the internet. Maybe it was listings in magazines such as Miniature Wargames.

It was easy at university, because there was a system set up to encourage students to form clubs and publicise them to get new members every year. Finding a local club in a city was an entirely different thing, though.

My club began as the local GW's own games club, run in the basement (!) on Saturday afternoons (Health and safety? No, never heard of it), and latterly in the upstairs room of a pub (although with no bar, so they could have under-18s). When that folded, a dozen of us decided we'd like to carry on. We wandered around a few unsuitable venues (the main bar area of a student union and another local pub - no use) and then found a local council-run hall a mile or so away. We've been there ever since (since 1999, at least).

Now, we have about a hundred signed-up members, and 40-50 people each night (we meet once a week on a Tuesday evening). The council hall supplies the venue, tables and chairs and storage for all our boards and terrain. Over the years we must have spent several thousand pounds on scenery.

We charge a small fee, with a reduction for annual members (we charge a fiver a year, which saves you a quid every night, and gets a discount in a couple of local shops). That money covers the hall hire and the cost of scenery and suchlike. It also leaves us enough to hire the hall for a couple of all-day sessions twice a year - time for those Apocalypse games, or an epic board game session or a small Necromunda campaign. We supply tea and coffee for a small fee (proceeds to charity), or we're surrounded by a selection of takeaways of varying quality/greasiness.

Our committee has five people on it; the President (me), a treasurer, secretary and two others, who are really there to make sure the treasurer and I don't just spend all the club's money on terrain for the games we play.

Other local clubs meet in the university Studen Union, in a church hall, there used to be another (more historical-oriented) club right next door to us in the Polish ex-servicemen's club, etc. There's also a venue in a nearby city, which combines a shop and gaming venue in what used to be a snooker hall. That's the closest to a US-style games store I think I've ever been in (although it charges a fee for using the tables; £3.50 for a day).

Some clubs run group games ("this week, we'll be doing a Jutland game" or whatever), but our place is really a venue for people to do what they like. Most games are arranged in advance, either in person at the club for the following week, or via our Facebook page. Occasionally someone brings a multiplayer boardgame and has a free space.

With the exception of the UK Games Expo and Warhammerfest, every wargames show I can think of in the UK is run by a club - including Salute which hires out a large exhibition centre in London, with a budget of, I think, hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Yes, and there are a lot of good shows too. There's something on somewhere nearly every weekend of the year.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've no idea how I found out my local clubs in the old days before the internet.

Yeah, that's the funny thing, for me at least, it was having to ask Games Workshop stores. Plus the whole "gaming club network" listings in White Dwarf

Yeah i can remember when every store would have a board up listing info on all the local clubs what ever they played .

I think there's rules now about which clubs stores can advertise, but we get on well with the staff in our local GW, and I think they direct people to us on occasion.

I doubt GW want to direct people towards clubs that play non-GW games.

It would be nice to think that might change.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I think there's rules now about which clubs stores can advertise, but we get on well with the staff in our local GW, and I think they direct people to us on occasion.

GCN and GW had a falling out, and GW stores no longer officially advertises local clubs (although if you're friendly with local staff they might do on the sly).

I think one of the other big differences between UK and USA is simply the size of houses.

This may be a massive over-generalisation that comes from watching way too much American TV but residential homes certainly seem to be much larger or have basements or garages that can accommodate a games table.

Certainly living in London it's a massive struggle to find a room big enough to fit a 6 x 4 games table and 2-3 blokes plus carry cases etc, and as for storage, no chance. All of my scenery is packed unassembled in boxes as i have nowhere to keep it.

Going to a club is so much easier, and luckily within London we have 2 large stores that have deicated gaming space (Darksphere and Warboar) as well as some great clubs - H.A.T.E being the largest and most fun.

I think most of what's required of a club has been mentioned but something that hasn't is age groups.

Almost all of the clubs I can think of that I have been to in UK are for 18s only which. More often than not this is because they are held in licensed premises that serve alcohol.

I'm guessing if you were to host your club in a bar in the US it would restrict your membership to over 21s?

There is another reason for this in UK though which is related to child protection laws which may also be something you would need to consider.

As well as public liability insurance if you are allowing anybody under 16 years of age you will need your club organisers to be DBS checked.

This is a criminal records check that prevents criminals, registered sex offenders etc having contact with minors.

I believe this is now a mandatory requirement of GCN now, or at least it was discussed.

Obviously this is a must for club organisers as an accustaion of inappropriate behaviour of any sort with a minor would be devastating.

It also has cost implications with a DBS check costing between £60-90.

Therefore most clubs simply get around this by not allowing membership of minors.

Although this potentailly reduces your club membership it greatly reduces any risk incidents but also IMO makes for a more pleasant gaming experience.

Certainly something to consider.

StraightSilver wrote:

There is another reason for this in UK though which is related to child protection laws which may also be something you would need to consider.
As well as public liability insurance if you are allowing anybody under 16 years of age you will need your club organisers to be DBS checked.
This is a criminal records check that prevents criminals, registered sex offenders etc having contact with minors.
I believe this is now a mandatory requirement of GCN now, or at least it was discussed.

You don't need to be DBS checked, and it's not mandatory for GCN membership.

You only need to be checked if you're there alone with under 16s (or vulnerable adults). Our club has a rota so at least two committee members are always there, so there's no need to be checked.
(We asked our members if they wanted us checked anyway, and they voted no. A representative of the Disclosure and Barring Service also hinted we could be breaking the law by applying for checks that were not legally required. It's a big, murky minefield - talk to a lawyer yourselves)

It is also annoying that DBS checks seem to have to be repeated even if you are covered by one already; I and several other people at the club have had DBS checks for the work we do but would have to pay out of pocket for another check for the club.

A standard DBS check costs £26 and can be updated so that it can be carried over to new positions apparently.

Its part of the reason to update from the CRB checks I think. Anyway its not that big a barrier is people want them to happen.

We have our FLGS. It used just to be a card gaming place until the owner heard that we where being left out in the rain when Worthies closed down. Well, he just happened to be moving to a new place and had the room to let us in, and thus was Harlequins and Red Steel born.
The store owner is great, he let us be based there for next to nothing and even gives us discounts.

This is all really interesting. I live 45 minutes outside of the major city in my area and I am considering trying to start a 40k Club. I know there is a scene (of sorts) as the LGS has a 40k night, but I haven't seen anyone play and their GW stock is pretty minimal.

The committee thing is generally a legal/local gov requirement for the club to do stuff like storing funds in a club account, the same as PLA insurance is a requirement for some venues to rent space.

It also tends to give you access to things like community centres and council owned properties in my experience plus I've found places are more likely to give you access if its at least somewhat an official organisation doing the bookings and stuff rather than a loose group of people.



The committee system protects the members as well to a certain extent because its not as easy for people to piss off with the club funds if its in a bank account rather than in a box at one guys home on the honour system. The same with terrain and other club property. If the chairman has a falling out with the rest of the members because he's being a bigoted turd he cant easily pull a 'screw ypu guys im going home' on everyone. Not that im talking from experience with clubs iv been part of or anything.....

However committee setups do have problems some gaming clubs can become cliquish and unwelcoming depending on who is on the committee and how they run the club. I know one of the clubs I play at subtly pushed out a couple of members because of one of them working for GW and one of the others the treasurer was a sycophant of the chairman and when the secretary. Left the chairman just did what he wanted refused to call an agm and treated it like his own piggy bank.

The club system is awesome for people especially when they move somewhere new GCN rocks vecause it means I can find a community of likeminded people wherever I am in the uk. Finding different opponents and hopefully make new friends and learn new gaming systems.

Allot of the stores I have played in have close links to local gaming clubs offering advertising and support sometimes even discounts because they dont always have as much space as they may like and the club offers that support and help. Generally GW stores in the uk know of and have contact details for at least one local club and are really happy to help with stuff my first club used to generally get old boards that the shop was retiring and occasionally terrain as well.

Plus GW get support from clubs as well when they run big events at games day and other cool things like events at WHW which raise the profile of the club and also show off GW in a positive light..

Im a big fan of the club system even though there are a couple of stores with large playing areas near me. It may be the fact that going in to play has a charge to play which you have to purchase over £10 to have that waived bugs me.

I dont object to paying for access to the gaming space but id much rather pick up a booster/blister of something I need or a couple of paints while at the shop especially if im going to be buying drinks and snack stuff from the store as well. The shop benefits because im buying stuff from them and ill keep coming back if there's a good community but with mini prices being what they are there isn't really an incentive for me to buy from the store when I can get 20-30% off buying it online rather than paying RRP - 5-10% but with a £3 gaming fee especially when one of the shops then later on moans about people buying online and playing there.

I know this is getting a bit old but I thought I would throw my thoughts in. I'm a Brit and have always been a bit confused by the American stories of going to the FLGS to get games in and then often feeling like you ought to be buying products because you game there.

Anyway, I'm the secretary of a club in Bath in the UK, we get to use the function room in a gentleman's club/pub twice a week and weekends if we book ahead pretty much for free. Every member has to pay the conservative club itself a fee and pays us a fee for the year and then no further payments have to be made (£15). That income gets reinvested in new terrain/mats table repairs etc.

We're also GCN affiliated which covers our insurance and other things like child protection policy (no need for DBS) and acquiring discounts from retailers/sponsorships for events etc. We also have space on site for all our tables and terrain; so although we have to clear away after each session everything remains on site. We usually get 5-6 6x4' tables and 2-3 4x4' tables filled on a given Tuesday night. We also have our own website and forum that is used to book tables and arrange games, which is great to avoid double bookings and the "pick-up game" situation.

Finally we do find having a committee fairly useful since it does just spread the authority over several different people, and it makes it clear who has their names signed to what: club bank account, paypal etc. As for troublesome members: luckily it's never come up while I've been around but we have a complete rules document with a code of conduct just in case.