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Warned for what. It was a discussion of a topic.

I'm looking for the news article now. I have my computer set to delete all history and cache files when Explorer is closed.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
[

When I was in school, the first day the teachers would do roll call to get our names. While doing roll call they would ask us what we went by. "David, do you go by Dave? Davey? What do you prefer?" They asked everybody this. A lot of kids in my class used their middle name because we had 2-3 Matts, 2-3 Jessicas, etc. So school children already go through this.

.

There is a HUGE jump between calling "David" Dave or using a legal middle name and changing a name outright. Also, when "Davey's" records are looked at in the office it will still state "David Wilson Carson", not Jackie Anne Carson. This is the policy in some school districts and in some professional aspects.


As I stated in a previous post, my biggest gripe is about officially changing records BEFORE a legal name change. Hypothetically, if a woman came to me and said, "Cuda, I plan on getting married in a year, but I want to use my fiancé's last name now", I'd have the same reaction.

There really isn't. It is not a huge jump at all, it is just something else they want to be called. When somebody is named David and they want to be called Dave, their legal name is still David. They just want to be called Dave. Same with trans people until they have it changed officially.

Also, it is not an issue with personnel records. All records have SSN in them so you can access them. Any time I call to get any information from past employers, I have to provide my SSN. Same with anything involving the government. You do not ever change your SSN.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
[
Also, it is not an issue with personnel records. All records have SSN in them so you can access them. Any time I call to get any information from past employers, I have to provide my SSN. Same with anything involving the government. You do not ever change your SSN.

Not all records have a SSN on them. Not everyone has a SSN. There is no legal requirement you ever get one, and in fact an employer can NOT discriminate against you for not having one. Not only that, but depending on where you work, even those WITH a SSN might not be accessible. Many employers will keep that information "need to know" for liability reasons.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
[
Also, it is not an issue with personnel records. All records have SSN in them so you can access them. Any time I call to get any information from past employers, I have to provide my SSN. Same with anything involving the government. You do not ever change your SSN.

Not all records have a SSN on them. Not everyone has a SSN. There is no legal requirement you ever get one, and in fact an employer can NOT discriminate against you for not having one. Not only that, but depending on where you work, even those WITH a SSN might not be accessible. Many employers will keep that information "need to know" for liability reasons.

In what is probably the least followed rule ever by anyone, your SSN isn't supposed to be used as a unique identifier anyway (if I recall correctly).

I object to the notion that whatever the government has down for you on their rolls is your True Name. Who gets to decide what you are called? Some combination of you and the people with whom you associate. If you ask to be called XYZ and the people around you refuse, I suppose you have to consider their reasons. Seems to me to be a very case-by-case sort of thing. But as far as generalizations go, I don't see why we're talking about "having" to call a trans person by their preferred name - no more than you "have" to help an eldster across the street or hold the door open for a lady. No one make you act with courtesy. But of course if you make a reputation for yourself as a cad, so be it.

 Frazzled wrote:
Warned for what. It was a discussion of a topic.

For what is called "false concern": Unfounded views and anecdotes for the instigation of a discussion that the poster knows will bring negative views, like flies to poop.
AKA lighting the fuse and not having to lay the groundwork if you wish people to argue for and against a contentious issue.

While I'm not sure that's what happened, or whether cuda just isn't as articulate in the first post as required to make his point.

At the very least it isn't a poop and scoot post yet. More poop and continue to prod.

To do OPs homework:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/5727/chicago-public-schools-now-forcing-students-use-amanda-prestigiacomo

As reported by some very right wing news sources.

It seems the situation is blown out of proportion.

I'm glad they included with relish

Plus, Johnny—I mean Gabrielle—can use the girls' locker-room and restroom, too.

Let's take the trans issue out of the equation for a moment. What would you think of a bunch of kids calling a boy (who identifies as a boy) "she" and "her"? If a teacher saw that happening, what would be the appropriate thing for the teacher to do?

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Warned for what. It was a discussion of a topic.

For what is called "false concern": Unfounded views and anecdotes for the instigation of a discussion that the poster knows will bring negative views, like flies to poop.
AKA lighting the fuse and not having to lay the groundwork if you wish people to argue for and against a contentious issue.

While I'm not sure that's what happened, or whether cuda just isn't as articulate in the first post as required to make his point.

Horse gak. You're advocating censorship on a topic you don't like. This is the OT. There are lots of serious and non serious topics presented without any framework.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Let's take the trans issue out of the equation for a moment. What would you think of a bunch of kids calling a boy (who identifies as a boy) "she" and "her"? If a teacher saw that happening, what would be the appropriate thing for the teacher to do?

Handle the situation of course for the lack of courtesy and bullying. We're on the same page Manchu.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Warned for what. It was a discussion of a topic.

For what is called "false concern": Unfounded views and anecdotes for the instigation of a discussion that the poster knows will bring negative views, like flies to poop.
AKA lighting the fuse and not having to lay the groundwork if you wish people to argue for and against a contentious issue.

While I'm not sure that's what happened, or whether cuda just isn't as articulate in the first post as required to make his point.

Horse gak. You're advocating censorship on a topic you don't like. This is the OT. There are lots of serious and non serious topics presented without any framework.

I was not saying the topic should be closed. I was giving the reasoning for it being a bad topic.

Personally I think shutting a topic means that it closes avenues of discussion for both sides, and is damaging as much as it is helpful.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Warned for what. It was a discussion of a topic.

For what is called "false concern": Unfounded views and anecdotes for the instigation of a discussion that the poster knows will bring negative views, like flies to poop.
AKA lighting the fuse and not having to lay the groundwork if you wish people to argue for and against a contentious issue.

While I'm not sure that's what happened, or whether cuda just isn't as articulate in the first post as required to make his point.

Horse gak. You're advocating censorship on a topic you don't like. This is the OT. There are lots of serious and non serious topics presented without any framework.
.

We frequently have censored topics here, as a former MOD I am sure you are aware of that. We have had Orlando, we often have guns and abortion on a temporary list after shutting down the latest shitposting thread that resulted from the topic, and it hasn't been that long since the last shutdown of a trans-topic thread with instructions to leave the topic alone for a while.

Now, it has been a little bit since that thread was locked, so there may be a legitimate discussion about wether or not the topic can be breached again if there is a relevant story to be talked about. But the opening post appeared to be a simple case of "why should I have to call them what they want to be called? Oh, I guess there may be some policies somewhere I don't like that I won't link to". Without an actual story attached to the topic, it seems to be posted solely to create discord in light of a recent closure of a similar topic. At best it's still a circle jerk of right wing "news" websites being outraged about an issue 2 months ago that we are now talking about for "reasons".

 Manchu wrote:
Let's take the trans issue out of the equation for a moment. What would you think of a bunch of kids calling a boy (who identifies as a boy) "she" and "her"? If a teacher saw that happening, what would be the appropriate thing for the teacher to do?

Depends on how the boy takes it. If the boy prefers it or is fine with it, then no harm no foul. If it causes distress, then that would come under guidelines for bullying.

 Selym wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Let's take the trans issue out of the equation for a moment. What would you think of a bunch of kids calling a boy (who identifies as a boy) "she" and "her"? If a teacher saw that happening, what would be the appropriate thing for the teacher to do?

Depends on how the boy takes it. If the boy prefers it or is fine with it, then no harm no foul. If it causes distress, then that would come under guidelines for bullying.

What if the boy is named Sue?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Let's take the trans issue out of the equation for a moment. What would you think of a bunch of kids calling a boy (who identifies as a boy) "she" and "her"? If a teacher saw that happening, what would be the appropriate thing for the teacher to do?

Handle the situation of course for the lack of courtesy and bullying. We're on the same page Manchu.

Sure, I was actually just starting a thought experiment - I think the above situation is clear and it would also be, all other things being equal, clear to me that kids referring to a trans boy as "she" and "her" could be the same kind of bullying. I am less clear on how ideological neologisms like "zhir" fit in ... at first blush, I don't think anyone should be expectd to adopt those phases.

I can't even pronounce those phrases, but I don't actually talk to most people using their names (I wasn't joking about the memory thing).

 Manchu wrote:
I am less clear on how ideological neologisms like "zhir" fit in ... at first blush, I don't think anyone should be expectd to adopt those phases.

IMO they don't fit in at all. We already have a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun: "they". It's much better to tell the grammar nazis to STFU about how "'they' isn't singular", acknowledge that it is commonly used that way even outside of needing a gender-neutral pronoun, and stop trying to invent a dozen different alternatives that most people aren't aware of.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Let's take the trans issue out of the equation for a moment. What would you think of a bunch of kids calling a boy (who identifies as a boy) "she" and "her"? If a teacher saw that happening, what would be the appropriate thing for the teacher to do?

Handle the situation of course for the lack of courtesy and bullying. We're on the same page Manchu.

Sure, I was actually just starting a thought experiment - I think the above situation is clear and it would also be, all other things being equal, clear to me that kids referring to a trans boy as "she" and "her" could be the same kind of bullying. I am less clear on how ideological neologisms like "zhir" fit in ... at first blush, I don't think anyone should be expectd to adopt those phases.

I've only ever encountered zhir and xe on paper. And even then, very uncommonly.
However a lot of mid-transition people use Mx as a title, and banks, passports and other places recognise this title. It's on many bank cards, for example. I have no idea how to pronounce that, I think at that stage you just progress to the first name.

I am a teacher and have a young pupil who is transgender. I appreciate that I work in a different country to the op, so policy here will be different. X requested the school's support as they undergo dressing as the inclined sex, using a gender appropriate name and using the changing facilities of the inclined sex. It took a lot of negotiation, and some of X's requests where compromised on, but by no means granted, including the desired name. A none gender specific name close to their real name was agreed upon.

Schools function best when there is a close dialogue between parents and teachers, especially in sensitive cases like this. I can't imagine a policy that would grant pupils that much power, whilst undermining that vital communication.

 JamesY wrote:
A none gender specific name close to their real name was agreed upon.

Gosh I honestly feel that is too much of a compromise, unless there was something objectionable about the name itself (i.e, more than that it is a feminine name).

 Manchu wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
A none gender specific name close to their real name was agreed upon.

Gosh I honestly feel that is too much of a compromise, unless there was something objectionable about the name itself (i.e, more than that it is a feminine name).

Yeah, I can maybe understand having to compromise on other things, but why should the name be subject to compromise? Any name is as good as any other, and if the parents had the kid's name legally changed to the feminine one you'd obviously have to use it. This seems like a case of compromise for the sake of compromise, not a compromise that needed to happen.

The child in question is very young, so it is more to help manage the transition. As time has passed and it is becoming clearer that they are genuinely transgender, more concessions have been made, and the name will be something that is revised and a fuller gender specific name allowed. You have to consider what would happen if it transpired to be confusion on the child's behalf, or if experience of approximating the inclined sex revealed to them that they feel even less comfortable than they did before. A non gender specific name is easier to "retreat" from, without inviting a million questions from a hundred other inquisitive, curious or malicious school children.

 JamesY wrote:
The child in question is very young, so it is more to help manage the transition.

Why do you think that you have any right to make those decisions? That's something the child and their parents should be in charge of. Your job as a school employee is to use whatever name they tell you to use.

You have to consider what would happen if it transpired to be confusion on the child's behalf, or if experience of approximating the inclined sex revealed to them that they feel even less comfortable than they did before.

What would happen is that the child would go back to using their old name, or a different name. That is a thing that could happen, but you have no right to decide what name the child will use, or that the risk of feeling like the name isn't appropriate anymore is more important than the immediate desire to have it. That is something the child, with help from their parents, gets to decide.

A non gender specific name is easier to "retreat" from, without inviting a million questions from a hundred other inquisitive, curious or malicious school children.

Then do your job and keep order in your classroom. The child should not be forced to use a different name just because it makes it easier for you to keep the other kids from misbehaving.

@peregrine I do my job very well thank you. Pandering to people is not the same as protecting their best interests. Your ego seems larger than your understanding of the realities of safely guiding vulnerable children through very difficult and life altering circumstances. Based on that, I will decline to discuss it further with you.

Back it up a tad, Peregrine. Nowhere did JamesY say that he set the policy. That isn't how things work here.
These are explanations that we are not even entitled to, so I'm just grateful for the insight.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Back it up a tad, Peregrine. Nowhere did JamesY say that he set the policy. That isn't how things work here.
These are explanations that we are not even entitled to, so I'm just grateful for the insight.

Indeed, we are all bound by policy set by those above. I am fortunate enough to work in a school where policies are set for the right reasons. Peregrine is also assuming agreement between child and parents on what name is to be used. In most cases I have had any information on (which in fairness I could count on one hand), there is no such unity. Parents are often unsure on what to do, want to write it off as a phase, or are outright embarrassed and want to pretend it isn't happening. It is a mine field of potential conflicts and uncertainties, at an age that is already full of them, which is why so much guidance is given by trained professionals to help make the transition as easy as possible. No decision is made or request denied/met half way for the sake of any thing other than the child's welfare.

 d-usa wrote:
To do OPs homework:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/5727/chicago-public-schools-now-forcing-students-use-amanda-prestigiacomo

As reported by some very right wing news sources.

It seems the situation is blown out of proportion.

I wish my school had such a policy. I would want to be called "Ya Hui" and use the girl's bathroom please, because I am actually a Chinese girl.


(Note: "Ya Hui" sounds like Russian for "I am a dick")

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you think that you have any right to make those decisions?

Agreed! The school system is negotiating with parents over the authenticity of their children being trans? This is one of those moments where England seems like it's on a planet in some other solar system.