Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Traditio wrote:


1. It's not enough to fully know or understand the individual. It's enough to make a reasonable decision about whether or not he is worth playing with, or else, whether he should be shunned from 40k games.

2. LoL at attempting to communicate.

Passive aggression is the only way.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The OP can lead by example.

A bad example could make the OP look bad or specifically diva-esque. when you are new to a gaming scene and begin being too fussy it can lead to you being shunned, but it seems you and I have an irreconcilable difference of opinions, and it's up to the OP to decide which tact (or neither) he prefers to take.

 Traditio wrote:
2. LoL at attempting to communicate.

Passive aggression is the only way.

Well, that sure says a lot about you and not in a good way.

Pr3Mu5 wrote:
beginners night
Basically as beginners
Anyway a Tau player who attends runs.
2 small units of fire warriors
2 riptides
And a shed load of suits (including his HQ) with loads of drones

The bigger question "Is [FILL IN BLANK] cheese, overpowered, TFG behavior?" is difficult to answer in a vacuum. "It depends", followed by some explanation and examples is required. Are 2 riptides cheese? It depends.

However, in this specific case, this is a beginners league of 1000 points. These are, I assume, mostly brand new or returning players, at a GW store where players are learning the rules. Learning how to play. Learning how to build their models. Learning how to paint their models. The key term from your post is beginners. The GW is trying to build a community of new players. Perhaps to replace players that no longer attend the store. Perhaps they will start playing with the veterans later? Unclear, but irrelevant. What is known is that this night is meant for new players.

Second point: Is this tau player new? That is unclear from your initial post. Is this a new player that has latched on to a powerful build, either through researching Tau, luck, or otherwise? I am surprised that he has not been asked to tone down his lists. Assuming he is new, he could just be over enthusiastic about building a strong list. In itself, there is nothing wrong with it. However, by doing so at beginners night, he's likely frustrating players. He may not even be aware that what he's doing might rub people the wrong way.

What has the store said to him, if anything?

What have you said to him, if anything?

Are you sure it's not just you? Other players may enjoy the challenge of trying to beat this guy. Don't be too quick to speak for everyone. Is everyone (or nearly everyone) also complaining?

Yes, I would call his list cheese, but only because this night is reserved for new players. Crushing your opponent should be secondary on this night to learning the rules and having fun. If most of the new players are not having fun, then the store should say something or risk losing new players.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
OP, just spotted you're in Manchester. Have you been to Fanboy3?
They run 40K in a very cool format where I believe folk add 100pts every month, and all in the name of sportsmanship. It may be up your alley as an addition or alternative to GW.
The staff member behind it is an absolute diamond, and the players are generally very friendly.

Hi I'm the OP, to be honest I've never even heard of it. I'll definitely give it a look though as it sounds like the kind of thing I'd be interested in doing as I build up my army

You can become a this guy by defeating a that guy and then toning down your list back to a newbie list until you need to defend the casual friends. It's just that few who tap into the dark side let go. It usually consumes them until they go power mad.

 Gamgee wrote:
. It's just that few who tap into the dark side let go. It usually consumes them until they go power mad.

So when you look into the cheese the cheese looks into you?

Hi kronk Im the OP.
I've commented a couple times on this now and mentioned a couple of additional relevant points but the main thing is I've not actually played him yet and have hardly spoken to him. What I've gathered is from having seen his army set up while i play on a nearby table and mostly from comments from others at the beginners night. I felt I'm not in the position to say anything right now as I've yet to face it but a number of people have called his list but still play him. I've heard at least 6 or 7 people moan about how overpowered his list is and 2 have called it cheese in front of the group and the store staff so they must by now be aware that it's become an issue.
I've mentioned elsewhere that I've hardly spoken to him but from the times I have he does seem like an ok guy, he's just a bit loud but nothing to tell me his attitude is an issue.
Im leaning towards playing his list anyway at least that way I can see what Tau capabilities are and what weaknesses they expose in my marines.

Is he also a new player?

 kronk wrote:
Is he also a new player?

I'm not sure. I've only been going for a couple of months and he was there when I started and was obviously known to the staff and a few other people because they were greeting him by name. He seemed to be liked on the whole as everyone seemed really friendly towards him and like I say he seems like a nice guy but a lot of people have mentioned his list being cheese and it seems to be a weekly topic of conversation now.

Tau lists like that cannot handle MSU lists. I beat their faces in when that kind of crap/cheese is played.

It's a really simple math problem, take more Objective secured troops units then he can kill in a game. Space marines are GREAT at that as a standard CAD can get a whopping 18 units scoring. (two ten man squads that combat squad and their transports.)

At 1000 points you can easily have 10-15 objective secured units active on the table. If they are in cover your odds went up even more.

Few things I notice. First, tau are definitely strong. Double riptide in 1k is high power stuff. However

1:This does not mean the user is new or vet, but rather he Likley either reads forums like this and "discovered" riptides are awsome and is exploiting it. Or he saw the big SHINEY kit, tried it got results and added a second.

2: when people can't beat something, or lose rather handily, the first response is to cry cheese. This often happens in a lack of knowledge circumstance, and that is most likely to occur in a "new player night" format. Your sample size for this guys "cheesiness" is rather small and to be honest, skewed.

3: don't ever rely on other peoples assessment of an opponent. I myself have been in tournaments and other games getting all kinds of "reports" that X guy is OP or cheese etc. only to realize I'm playing a guy using Y and "hey, I know that army!" - and then proceed to have a fun close game. Other people reporting or complaining are doing so because they as mentioned above are unfamiliar, have heard the negitive "hype" and that scared them (causing them to have a poor game), or they got overwhelmed with trying to not only learn the rules, but their own Army, only to be confronted with an opponent who bends or breaks those rules. It's a tough situation to be in.

My advise. Learn the tau book. Read this it cover to cover and back again a few times. Read up the net lists, tatics, book/unit analysis/reviews - anything and everything you can. THEN play him. It'll be a much easier game, and much closer then you would expect at this point.

Do you have any bikes to field? Those *might* be a headache for him if you can use a decent sized group to quickly seize objectives, or possibly tie up one of his shooty units. Their scout ability might help to set up a (suicide) assault if he parks near a corner.

I wouldn't deep strike anything in though I think - from your earlier comments it sounds like he's got interceptor ready for drop pod assaults and the like.

 chalkobob wrote:

This is a meaner and pettier attitude than someone who is too competitive. .

Unsurprising from somebody who sees everything in black and white when nothing is black and white in reality.

Caedes wrote:
1:This does not mean the user is new or vet, but rather he Likley either reads forums like this and "discovered" riptides are awsome and is exploiting it. Or he saw the big SHINEY kit, tried it got results and added a second.

Sure, but at this point he's completed the process of discovering that Riptides are awesome and figuring out to exploit them, and he is able to win every game against newbies. His learning process is complete, and he doesn't really belong at newbie night anymore.

2: when people can't beat something, or lose rather handily, the first response is to cry cheese. This often happens in a lack of knowledge circumstance, and that is most likely to occur in a "new player night" format. Your sample size for this guys "cheesiness" is rather small and to be honest, skewed.

This is a fair point in general, but it doesn't really apply to newbie games. When people first start playing they're not very good at the game, and they have a limited selection of models to work with (often weaker ones from the starter sets). So if you aren't in a similar position as a newbie then you really need to tone down your army. If you're bringing anything remotely resembling a competitive list then it's cheese relative to the poor newbies you're going to be massacring.

I really do not like the heaping on here. If the guy is a tool bag, then fine. But just winning alot is not something you can fault him for.

Either way someone needs to get the group together and hash this out, the new guys needs to learn to handle these small model count, high firepower armies, it's something that always has been in game.

 sfshilo wrote:
But just winning alot is not something you can fault him for.

Sure it is. If you are winning a lot on newbie night stop coming to newbie night. This isn't a normal open gaming night where you can expect to find players of all skill levels, it's a night specifically intended to help new players get started. If you aren't a newbie or a player with an extremely toned down list who is there to help the newbies learn (and lose most of your games) then you don't belong at newbie night. Go play on the normal open gaming nights.

 Peregrine wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
But just winning alot is not something you can fault him for.

Sure it is. If you are winning a lot on newbie night stop coming to newbie night. This isn't a normal open gaming night where you can expect to find players of all skill levels, it's a night specifically intended to help new players get started. If you aren't a newbie or a player with an extremely toned down list who is there to help the newbies learn (and lose most of your games) then you don't belong at newbie night. Go play on the normal open gaming nights.

Can I make a poster of that? I'd love seeing less Imperial Knights at my store beginner games.

I would agree. If one has indeed progressed past "discovery" and been allowed to fully enjoy that discovery in games that he wins, then for sure. Graduate to "normal" game night. A few things to consider:

If newbie night and veterans night are on diffirent days of the week - newbie night might be the only one available to him if he has RL obligations. Family, kids, religion, other hobbies etc. he may only have that newbie night as a game time. So as suggested, talk to the guy. Perhaps he's not aware others have such issues. - and hearing people gripe after beating them can be often interpreted as being simply a sore loser.

Not that I am defending him if he turns into TFG, such as telling you to stuff it I'm playing this list against newbies and nothing you can do, lern to git gud, etc. in that case walk away very quick. But if he's anything resembling normal human, such conversation should produce decent results.

Maybe suggest the following: look into some of the more specialized formations. Bring more firewarriors, ghost keel, stealth suits, tanks, etc in place of the second riptide. It sounds like he's not using formations. Or at least not all of them. Help him get past the "riptides are SHINEY must have MOAR" and into the real strength of the tau. It WILL make him more competitive and harder still to beat .... But it will get him away from newbie night.

Which leads to my second point....: pretty soon winning all the time without a challange removes the point of the game. When it's all on "easy mode" the novelty wears off. Especially if you actually learn how to win without easy mode. It's also more satisfying.

2 riptides is way too much, especially at 1000 points and playing against noobs?!?! I understand the "I payed $90 for this model so I want to use it" mentality but somebody has to talk to him. I never use more than 1 riptide unless i'm using the Riptide Wing and playing against tourny level lists. You just have to explain to him how strong the riptide actually is and he should only bring 1 (I personally would never bring a riptide in this situation)

If you can't talk some sense into him, set up to play him and before the game, swap lists. Let him play against his own list and feel the pain of setting up your models just so they other guy can remove them.

2 riptides in a 1500 point game is a bit much, though everything else I wouldn't call op. Crisis suits actually take skill to use IMO, and broadsides whilst powerful are extremely frigile, and you see them, focus them.

As a tau player, I'd suggest to aim for his small suits, especially broadsides. I'd keep in close range of his crisis suits too. It's only a matter of time until he rolls a 4 on his thrust move and is left in the open.

Always kill pathfinders. If he's running the stealth formation with them and broadsides, only shoot them with ignored cover stuff. Ignored cover anything melts pathfinder. Str 8 ap 3 should be shot at suits, and str 9 ap 2-1 las cannons should be pointed at broadsides. Ignore fire warriors if they're in units of 5. If he's running a markerdrone net, kill the unit with the commander, and try to make the other units run. Remember, drones are ld 7, and the formation breaks if only 1 unit is left in the board.

Ignore riptides unless you can pop them in 1-2 turns or if they're able to get tied down. A riptide has a 2+ with FNP and a 3+ invuln with FNP at toughness 6 and 5 wounds, I'd suggest not wasting your high ap shots on them when dropping broadsides will put a bigger damper on his firepower far quicker.

Good luck. Remember, doubling out a crisis suit or broadside is always the best way to feth a casual tau list.

 Jaxler wrote:
2 riptides in a 1500 point game is a bit much, though everything else I wouldn't call op. Crisis suits actually take skill to use IMO, and broadsides whilst powerful are extremely frigile, and you see them, focus them.

As a tau player, I'd suggest to aim for his small suits, especially broadsides. I'd keep in close range of his crisis suits too. It's only a matter of time until he rolls a 4 on his thrust move and is left in the open.

Always kill pathfinders. If he's running the stealth formation with them and broadsides, only shoot them with ignored cover stuff. Ignored cover anything melts pathfinder. Str 8 ap 3 should be shot at suits, and str 9 ap 2-1 las cannons should be pointed at broadsides. Ignore fire warriors if they're in units of 5. If he's running a markerdrone net, kill the unit with the commander, and try to make the other units run. Remember, drones are ld 7, and the formation breaks if only 1 unit is left in the board.

Ignore riptides unless you can pop them in 1-2 turns or if they're able to get tied down. A riptide has a 2+ with FNP and a 3+ invuln with FNP at toughness 6 and 5 wounds, I'd suggest not wasting your high ap shots on them when dropping broadsides will put a bigger damper on his firepower far quicker.

Good luck. Remember, doubling out a crisis suit or broadside is always the best way to feth a casual tau list.

Too bad the weapons that do that are mostly terrible.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
2 riptides in a 1500 point game is a bit much, though everything else I wouldn't call op. Crisis suits actually take skill to use IMO, and broadsides whilst powerful are extremely frigile, and you see them, focus them.

As a tau player, I'd suggest to aim for his small suits, especially broadsides. I'd keep in close range of his crisis suits too. It's only a matter of time until he rolls a 4 on his thrust move and is left in the open.

Always kill pathfinders. If he's running the stealth formation with them and broadsides, only shoot them with ignored cover stuff. Ignored cover anything melts pathfinder. Str 8 ap 3 should be shot at suits, and str 9 ap 2-1 las cannons should be pointed at broadsides. Ignore fire warriors if they're in units of 5. If he's running a markerdrone net, kill the unit with the commander, and try to make the other units run. Remember, drones are ld 7, and the formation breaks if only 1 unit is left in the board.

Ignore riptides unless you can pop them in 1-2 turns or if they're able to get tied down. A riptide has a 2+ with FNP and a 3+ invuln with FNP at toughness 6 and 5 wounds, I'd suggest not wasting your high ap shots on them when dropping broadsides will put a bigger damper on his firepower far quicker.

Good luck. Remember, doubling out a crisis suit or broadside is always the best way to feth a casual tau list.

Too bad the weapons that do that are mostly terrible.

Ion cannons, ion accelerators, and pulse cannons, fusion blasters, and seaker missiles are pretty good. Who doesn't run a skyray? Most tau weapons that are high str low ap are pretty good IMO. I uphold that every army should have at least 1 low ap large blast.

I was thinking lacannons and missile launchers and bright lances. Yes, Tau double out T4 quite well.

Martel732 wrote:
I was thinking lacannons and missile launchers and bright lances. Yes, Tau double out T4 quite well.

Punishers, leman russes, and anything melta all aren't bad. Also flashgitz are something I wouldn't call bad. They've a 1/2 chance to 1 ignore marines.

Also, keep in mind that the proliferation of high ap large blasts is why I only ever run broadsides in min squads in the stealth pathfinder formation or as a min tax in the retaliation cadre, or min squads in the 2 broadsides and a riptide formation. I'd rather you overkill a single unit than pop a broadside and make me force a morale check, and have my sides flee off the table.

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I was thinking lacannons and missile launchers and bright lances. Yes, Tau double out T4 quite well.

Punishers, leman russes, and anything melta all aren't bad. Also flashgitz are something I wouldn't call bad. They've a 1/2 chance to 1 ignore marines.

Also, keep in mind that the proliferation of high ap large blasts is why I only ever run broadsides in min squads in the stealth pathfinder formation or as a min tax in the retaliation cadre, or min squads in the 2 broadsides and a riptide formation. I'd rather you overkill a single unit than pop a broadside and make me force a morale check, and have my sides flee off the table.

Punishers, russes and melta are all bad now. The Tau and Eldar saw to that. Basically the Imperial armory minus grav is a fething joke now to Xenos.

Hi, I'm the OP... Thought I'd come back to this thread and say I've found a second cheese list in the specified beginners night.

1000pts list...
Beginners night...

My opponent fields
Dark Eldar
-Wracks with a haemonculus
-some bizarre character with 11 attacks in assault...

Allied with...

Harlequins
-About 8 or so of those with a harlequin psycher in the back...

Allied again with...
-6 swooping hawks with some kind of anti armour canons


And oh yes a wraithknight!
In a 1000pt beginners game...

I played Marines in rhinos and a squad of assault Marines in a L/R for delivery...
Needless to say I got rolled over.

I was reading the list and thinking "What are you complaining about?" Then I got to the end lol.

Minus the WK, I don't think you should have gotten rolled over, but I don't know the DE character. The good news is his list is unbound! And I'm not sure what you're talking about with the Swooping Hawks. They have haywire grenades, but they can only throw one per phase, so unless they charged a vehicle (and y'all are *not* using the FAQs that say only 1 grenade in assault), then yeah it could take out a vehicle a turn, but it's kinda RNG.

His list honestly sounds like a beginner's "These are cool models" list, considering the hodge podge of everything.

BossJakadakk wrote:
I was reading the list and thinking "What are you complaining about?" Then I got to the end lol.

Minus the WK, I don't think you should have gotten rolled over, but I don't know the DE character. The good news is his list is unbound! And I'm not sure what you're talking about with the Swooping Hawks. They have haywire grenades, but they can only throw one per phase, so unless they charged a vehicle (and y'all are *not* using the FAQs that say only 1 grenade in assault), then yeah it could take out a vehicle a turn, but it's kinda RNG.

His list honestly sounds like a beginner's "These are cool models" list, considering the hodge podge of everything.

The 11 attacks character goota be a solitarie with his blitz ability.

Lord Perversor wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
I was reading the list and thinking "What are you complaining about?" Then I got to the end lol.

Minus the WK, I don't think you should have gotten rolled over, but I don't know the DE character. The good news is his list is unbound! And I'm not sure what you're talking about with the Swooping Hawks. They have haywire grenades, but they can only throw one per phase, so unless they charged a vehicle (and y'all are *not* using the FAQs that say only 1 grenade in assault), then yeah it could take out a vehicle a turn, but it's kinda RNG.

His list honestly sounds like a beginner's "These are cool models" list, considering the hodge podge of everything.

The 11 attacks character goota be a solitarie with his blitz ability.

Ooo yeah that would make sense.

Hey OP regarding the Tau player. I would honestly just play him, see how it goes. If he runs with cheese then the next time around ask him to tone it down a bit.

If he doesn't, that is when you stop playing against him. You don't need to be dramatic. Just decline the games. If someone else is organizing them, just tell the organizer you aren't interested in playing them. I'd be really surprised if they didn't make some kind of reasonable change or compromise.