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I've been attending my local GW beginners night as I've only recently restarted playing after 10 years away and have come across an interesting list.
Basically as beginners everyone plays a 1000 point list but some people have 1500 points lists ready if their opponents army is big enough.
Anyway a Tau player who attends runs.
2 small units of fire warriors
2 riptides
And a shed load of suits (including his HQ) with loads of drones
Hes rolled over everyone at the store and not having played him yet (I'm due to next week) I'm starting to think his list is a bit cheesy. Nobody wants to play him and complains about a lot of buffed cover ( some invisibility as well I think somehow) lots of drones, intercept and general OP shenanigans. I was wondering whether you would consider this cheese?
Considering the people who attend play orks, chaos daemons, guard (1 army armour heavy, the other mainly infantry) space wolves, vanilla Marines and a drop pod marine army. There's also occasionally 'crons and grey knight armies in attendance I'm awed at the way no-one has come close to beating him yet.
When I think the night is for beginners I'm just shocked he's been allowed to play this army for at least the couple months I've been going without the staff asking him not to or telling him to go to the vets night.
I'll also mention that he says he's got an eldar army on the go I'm getting the impression he's a bit of a power gamer.


I'll just say I've added a further list I faced this week at the same event... In the comments on page 2 that I think is even more cheese!

It's not cheese in the context of 40k as a whole, but it's probably not appropriate for beginners' night at your local GW. It sounds like he's been playing for quite a while already, so why is he still invited to beginners' night? If it's some kind of issue where that's the only night he can play he should at least be making an effort to cripple his own list until he stops winning so much. Drop the riptides, take lots of basic troops (including some kroot!), trade some of the crisis suits for rail rifle pathfinders, etc. If you're an experienced player coming to newbie learning night then you should be playing close to the weakest possible list your codex can produce.

When I think the night is for beginners

Is it explicitly a night for beginners or are you just assuming that it is? This quote seems to suggest that it's the second case, in which the answer to your question changes significantly.

He can't have that many XV8's if he isn't playing a Farsight list. Two Riptides might be the only thing that's a bit much. If it is a newbie night then I would bring only one or none, but I tend to be a far better player than most.

He could do with dropping one.

If it's not explicitly a newbie night then his list is okay all things considered.

Go for his markerlight support. If you see drones, pathfinders, or any other vehicles buffing his army and giving cover ignoring then I would focus on taking them down. A tau army with no markerlight support is in trouble.

As for the things increasing cover saves? The only thing I can think of is the Ghostkeel suits. However if he took the Ghostkeel Wing formation it confers a save to all units within I think 12" of the model as long as all the models are within a certain distance of each other.

Tau have trouble taking objectives and with melee. Try include some line of sight blocking terrain, but a good Tau player won't be hindered by LOS breaking terrain. If anything I love when I have lots of LOS breaking terrain since I love to shoot and move out of sight a lot more. I'm a rather offensive and proactive Tau player though even to the point of using melee if its opportune.

Apologies, that'd be my wording not being appropriate.
Itd be more suitable for me to say "when I consider the fact that it is a beginners night."
The night is set aside specifically for beginners. That is also the reason why there is a 1000 point limit on games but for those that have been attending a while they let players have a little discretion to play 1500 if they both agree.
They play 2 units a side in games for very new players that on that night and even the store manager says it's a beginners night, that's the whole reason I chose that night to attend.
That have a dedicated veterans night in Thursdays and all day Saturday for 40k.
I'm just really not looking forward to next week where I've been told by several people I'm just going to end up setting up then removing my army.
I can't see why, considering his record there so far, he's not been told to tone it down.

In that case his double RIptides for a newbie are a bit much. What is your army?

Edit
Tau don't ever have access to invisibility themselves. Just a heads up. So if he claims he has that psychic power he is probably the biggest liar.

Just ask your opponent politely to tone his list down a bit next time you face him in order to better approximate the power of your list and you both will be fine. 40k list building isn't a binary cheese or no cheese thing its a rule system in where the players have to find the balance to make a fun game themselves. Calling your opponent a cheesemongerer doesn't help you at all you will need him to play the balancing game with you.

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau have trouble taking objectives and with melee. Try include some line of sight blocking terrain, but a good Tau player won't be hindered by LOS breaking terrain.

Thanks, I've heard this before so even though I don't know exactly what's in his list, I'm the only one at the store he's not played yet, I've slightly tweaked my army and dropped the shoot terminators I had in there and some more points in a few places to get my assault terminators in the landraider I finished painting on Sunday.
All my other units 3 tac squads already have rhinos and so far I've been using them to charge up the field and tank shock after rapid firing with rerolls from actively doctrine so I'm hoping to use them to block Los against him and get in his face with the assault terminators. That's so long as my rhinos survive long enough for me to get up there as last week I looked across to his table and probably 80% of his army was near the table edges ( probably trying to avoid cc)
In terms of numbers of troops and suits Im not sure what he has but from what I've seen I'd guess he's got at least 8 suits and his fire warrior squads are only small (I don't know what their minimum is) looks like 6.

Honestly? Don't play against him. He's abusing the newbie learning night to get easy wins against people who can't fight back effectively instead of playing on one of the "normal" 40k days. You don't have to play against someone just because they show up and expect a game.

 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly? Don't play against him. He's abusing the newbie learning night to get easy wins against people who can't fight back effectively instead of playing on one of the "normal" 40k days. You don't have to play against someone just because they show up and expect a game.

True that. If you don't expect to enjoy the game simply not playing is viable option. No law in the world requires you to spend time you don't enjoy.

For me you need to find like minded players when having a game of 40k, it's so massively unbalanced and attracts bad gamers. The only way to enjoy playing is to find those who have a similar mind set or are happy to play a certain way. Hopefully you find somebody to play against regularly in this group
Cheese v cheese is fine
Fluff v fluff is fine
Any combination of the above is fine if both players agree.
In this instance the GW employee should step in and sort out the Tau player, in a newbie environment he's likely to lose interest from those getting stomped

If he's not a beginner, why is he even allowed to play at a beginners night? His list is definitely too strong for new players. Did he take a ghostkeel battlesuit? That's the only thing in the Tau arsenal that get's anything close to invisibility (holophoton counter-measures can cause one unit to snap shot). Or did he take a coldstar commander suit? (allows a commander to fly giving it the usual snap shot only rules for flyers) If he didn't take either then he was cheating.

Thanks guys, as a couple of you have pointed out people are really now starting to actively avoid playing him because of the way he's beating everyone, ie in a really one sided shooting gallery.
My lists is basically a mechanised Ultramarines force, but with full 10 man squads in rhinos (not really fond of the 5 man in razorback spam I've seen) now I've finished painting my landraider, I've got that in with assault terminators inside (the newly found wonders of magnetisation have allowed me to shave points elsewhere to get this in 1000 points) Other than that I've got a ML 2 Librarian.
I was contemplating refusing to.play him but despite a couple people already outright calling his list cheese to his face no-one has done it up to now. I suffer quite badly from social anxiety and I'll say I'm so grateful for the attitude of people in my local GW. Theres some great people and it's such a friendly atmosphere it's really helped me come out of my shell but I'm not sure I'd cope with drawing the attention of a big bunch of people by just refusing to face his list.
I'm contemplating just playing it and doing my best to grab objectives while piling my l/r and terminators at his line to act as a distraction and try and make him work for his win. Then afterwards trying to quietly talk to the manager and mention the discontent, that you can see spreading, about him just rolling everyone as he and his list are way to advanced for the beginners night.
What do you think?

Edit: like I say, i don't actually know his full list or what rules his models get. Just I've seen his table a couple times while playing and there definitely 2 riptides in there and at least 8 suits and a lot of drones. No tanks but his fire warrior units look V small so I'm guessing he just uses them to run up and cap objectives. In terms of the cover and invisibility thing, I've just heard it off a couple people now who've already played him that he's got a lot of buffs in there and someone specifically mentioned invisibility but from what's been said it may well be something similar then. I've heard him go on about a warlord train he role for (and I'm pretty sure he said he gets to reroll for) that gives him something like a 2+ cover or invulnerable save. I may end up asking him to show me the rules next week when we play.

As the others have said he should not be playing at the Beginners night. Dosnt like it? Well tough, he is an experienced player with a tough and competitive list. He either changes over to regular nights or arranges for a more experienced player to game him. Or stops coming.

By the way, Tau have no access to Invisibility as it is a psychic power and Tau lack psykers. The nearest thing he has is a slight cover buff on his Stealth Suits if he is using them.

Looks Cheesy

OP, what Army/Armies do you play?

Hey Pr3mu5,

Thanks for posting up! I'm really glad that 40k's helping you come out of your shell. Did the same for me, and I truly am grateful for it. I can honestly say that it helped get me through high school.

As for this player, it definitely sounds like it's a cheese list and the guy is being a jerk for bringing it to beginner's nights. But let me ask you this - what kind of player is he? If he's a nice person and fun to play against, well then go ahead and play it, accept that you're not going to win this one, and give 'er. If you're both having fun, THAT'S what's going to be more important.

If he's not a nice person, and you hear that he's a jerk during these games, then politely decline to play. Just say "I'm sorry, I'm just getting back into the game, and I know that not only can I not beat your list, but that it wouldn't even be a fight. I'd much rather play against something that I can interact with. If you wouldn't mind switching up those Riptides for some basic troops, I'd be more than happy to play, but as it stands I think I'll just concede right now."


If you are set on BEATING him though, remember a few things;

#1 - Tau Ld generally sucks. This means your goal should be to inflict lots of Ld tests, since that'll cripple his shooting more than just removing one whole unit at a time. Any psychic powers or abilities you have in shooting will aid you here. That includes Tank Shock!

#2 - Tau that stay far back are just about the most annoying thing in the world to fight against. If he doesn't have a ton of Smart Missile Systems, get your vehicles into position so that when they die they block Line of Sight to an objective. Then you can camp out on the objective while he has to re-jig his forces.

#3 - Don't put your Land Raider at unnecessary risk. Hilariously, outside of Fusion Rifles, Tau lists like the one he's bringing don't have a ton of anti-heavy-armour. If you can get the Land Raider into cover, even deep-striking the Fusion Rifles will be more challenging for him to take this AV14 beast on. If he doesn't have many Fusion Rifles, this vehicle might just be an all-star.

commander dante wrote:
Looks Cheesy

OP, what Army/Armies do you play?

I play Space Marines. Painted as and played as Ultramarines. Core of three 10 man Tactical units in rhinos with a ML2 Librarian attached to one in place of a marine. I did have a shooty terminator unit in but I've swapped them out and replaced them with assault terminators in a landraider.

As others have said, he is geared towards Infantry killing by the sounds of things (coincidentally, perfect for taking on most beginners armies) so he will struggle with heavy armour. Use that Land Raider - is it a Crusader variant? If it is you are laughing. Line of sight (cock)block his units with everything you have - terrain, your vehicles, etc, and try to force him to advance.
Do not rely too much on cover saves. He doesnt appear to have Markerlights in there but if he does you will know about it if you are relying on cover. Block his LoS instead.

 Yarium wrote:
Hey Pr3mu5,

Thanks for posting up! I'm really glad that 40k's helping you come out of your shell. Did the same for me, and I truly am grateful for it. I can honestly say that it helped get me through high school.

As for this player, it definitely sounds like it's a cheese list and the guy is being a jerk for bringing it to beginner's nights. But let me ask you this - what kind of player is he? If he's a nice person and fun to play against, well then go ahead and play it, accept that you're not going to win this one, and give 'er. If you're both having fun, THAT'S what's going to be more important.

If he's not a nice person, and you hear that he's a jerk during these games, then politely decline to play. Just say "I'm sorry, I'm just getting back into the game, and I know that not only can I not beat your list, but that it wouldn't even be a fight. I'd much rather play against something that I can interact with. If you wouldn't mind switching up those Riptides for some basic troops, I'd be more than happy to play, but as it stands I think I'll just concede right now."


If you are set on BEATING him though, remember a few things;

#1 - Tau Ld generally sucks. This means your goal should be to inflict lots of Ld tests, since that'll cripple his shooting more than just removing one whole unit at a time. Any psychic powers or abilities you have in shooting will aid you here. That includes Tank Shock!

#2 - Tau that stay far back are just about the most annoying thing in the world to fight against. If he doesn't have a ton of Smart Missile Systems, get your vehicles into position so that when they die they block Line of Sight to an objective. Then you can camp out on the objective while he has to re-jig his forces.

#3 - Don't put your Land Raider at unnecessary risk. Hilariously, outside of Fusion Rifles, Tau lists like the one he's bringing don't have a ton of anti-heavy-armour. If you can get the Land Raider into cover, even deep-striking the Fusion Rifles will be more challenging for him to take this AV14 beast on. If he doesn't have many Fusion Rifles, this vehicle might just be an all-star.

He doesn't seem that bad of a guy, I've hardly spoken to him. Hes a bit loud but apart from that as far as I can tell he's just a bit over competitive and has taken it to the extreme with his list and has ended up playing in the beginners games as it's easy stomping people who are relatively new. You're tips are a massive help I'll try and keep them in mind when I play him and make sure I try and steer us towards the tables with loads of terrain to obscure LOS.

Thanks for the response, it really has been a massive help getting back in to gaming and despite the fact it forces me to interact with people, with it being about something I've always been passionate about (I collected and played for about 5 years when I was you).

I think I'll take this moment to just say to anyone reading this post it's not just a thank you to people replying but everyone that you contribute towards making this community as I see it what it is. I couldnt ever say it to anyone's face at my local GW but my anxiety along with other mental health issues have definitely been pushed back simply by the way the people I've played and talked to have treated me. I feel like the wargaming community is far more inclusive and friendly than society as a whole and I would just say thanks to you all for being a part of it. You may at some point have played someone with issues like mine and they won't have been able to say anything to you but you've without a doubt helped us. So thanks.

if he's going dualTide on a 1k game, it's pushing into Raw Cheese, yes.

May as well suggest he go TripTide and make it complete. lol.

However, every unit has a weakness...
when I was putting Riptides on the table, I found my friend played Scouts in Storms, and the Vet with an Axe or a Fist.
The Riptide -in CC- is quite weak, with only 3 dice to throw back, about one Wound a turn (let the lesser scouts die first).
More often than not, I'd find my Riptide fail in CC requiring a LOUSY LD check, and then the i2 rollign against the i4 Scouts means... my riptide was removed from play.

TF"s are DOOM for tau. especially for their troops. Heavy Bolters, too. Heavy Flamers -especially-.
(these weapons are also good on any table, not just countering Tau).

were I to face him, with SM (and not my Wolves, whom I have confidence in) I'd roll Scouts (axe or fist) in Storms (heavy flamer), TF's, and still have only spent 250pts at most, letting me field all kinds of awesome against other armies too.
Scouts move: 12" + 18" + 6" + 6" + 2d6" for second turn assault... 44"-54". nowhere to run....

seriously tho - it is cheese to dualTide in a 1k, but i just know you can handle it , if you bring the right stuff to the table.
Tac squads ... may not fair so well, if that's the brunt of your force.

Pr3Mu5 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau have trouble taking objectives and with melee. Try include some line of sight blocking terrain, but a good Tau player won't be hindered by LOS breaking terrain.

Thanks, I've heard this before so even though I don't know exactly what's in his list, I'm the only one at the store he's not played yet, I've slightly tweaked my army and dropped the shoot terminators I had in there and some more points in a few places to get my assault terminators in the landraider I finished painting on Sunday.
All my other units 3 tac squads already have rhinos and so far I've been using them to charge up the field and tank shock after rapid firing with rerolls from actively doctrine so I'm hoping to use them to block Los against him and get in his face with the assault terminators. That's so long as my rhinos survive long enough for me to get up there as last week I looked across to his table and probably 80% of his army was near the table edges ( probably trying to avoid cc)
In terms of numbers of troops and suits Im not sure what he has but from what I've seen I'd guess he's got at least 8 suits and his fire warrior squads are only small (I don't know what their minimum is) looks like 6.

If this is true then he sounds like a typical corner camping Tau. Doing your best to get objectives will help you win. Do your best to have many small units that are cheap. If you have anything to distract his fire for a turn or two from your objecdtive takers that you think might stand up to a round or two of shooting. I know I hated my CSM players nurgle marines before I learned to ignore them. Something real tough.

Edit
The Tau player you need to worry about are the ones who charge up the center of the board with their Stormsurges to smack the gak out of stuff in melee as well as shoot crazy amount of firepower on the way. The Riptides might be too hard for you to catch and put into melee range but they don't do much to vehicles either. They can take out transports but anything tougher is going to take awhile. It sounds like his list has almost no access to high power weapons spam like fusion crisis suits. So having vehicles might be a boon against this Tau player.

Alternatively, you can easily beat the Tau player by refusing to play against him in the first place.

The sweetest victory of all.

Considering Space Marines with all their cheese is one of the strongest factions in the game when built properly I think I would prefer he battles the Tau player to learn his weaknesses. Then with allies and other psy power shenanigans if the OP ever gets good enough/cheesy enough he can absolutely destroy any Tau player.

Your typical SM lists aren't though. So it's not like he is using a disadvantaged codex or anything. Just a newbie and lacks the models to do cheesy gak.

 Gamgee wrote:
Considering Space Marines with all their cheese is one of the strongest factions in the game when built properly I think I would prefer he battles the Tau player to learn his weaknesses.

Of course you would. You play Tau. You would prefer whatever will get Tau players more games.

Then with allies and other psy power shenanigans if the OP ever gets good enough/cheesy enough he can absolutely destroy any Tau player.

Your typical SM lists aren't though. So it's not like he is using a disadvantaged codex or anything. Just a newbie and lacks the models to do cheesy gak.

To the OP:

There are two, and precisely two, kinds of players of Warhammer 40k:

There are cheesemongers. And there are people who are not cheesemongers.

Cheesemongers usually play Space Marines, Tau and Eldar.

You have two options for dealing with cheesemongers:

You can yourself be a cheesemonger (I highly recommend against this).

You can refuse to play with cheesemongers.

The cheesemongers, in turn, will insist that you are simply bad at the game, that you should "git gud," etc.

In fact, however, those are simply the death wails of people who are desparate not to have their (very expensive) decision to intentionally break the game be completely invalidated by a lack of people to break the game with.

Just say "no," OP. If you say "yes" to that game, you've already lost, and the cheesemonger has already won simply in virtue of his having an occasion to "crash the game," so to speak, to "exploit the bugs." Just say "no." The look of sorrow, of disappointment, of utter defeat when the cheesemonger realizes that he has nobody to play with...

...that is the sweetest and most decisive victory of all.

Feast on their tears of butt-hurt..

OP, just spotted you're in Manchester. Have you been to Fanboy3?
They run 40K in a very cool format where I believe folk add 100pts every month, and all in the name of sportsmanship. It may be up your alley as an addition or alternative to GW.
The staff member behind it is an absolute diamond, and the players are generally very friendly.

 Traditio wrote:


Of course you would. You play Tau. You would prefer whatever will get Tau players more games.

Then with allies and other psy power shenanigans if the OP ever gets good enough/cheesy enough he can absolutely destroy any Tau player.

Your typical SM lists aren't though. So it's not like he is using a disadvantaged codex or anything. Just a newbie and lacks the models to do cheesy gak.

To the OP:

There are two, and precisely two, kinds of players of Warhammer 40k:

There are cheesemongers. And there are people who are not cheesemongers.

Cheesemongers usually play Space Marines, Tau and Eldar.

You have two options for dealing with cheesemongers:

You can yourself be a cheesemonger (I highly recommend against this).

You can refuse to play with cheesemongers.

The cheesemongers, in turn, will insist that you are simply bad at the game, that you should "git gud," etc.

In fact, however, those are simply the death wails of people who are desparate not to have their (very expensive) decision to intentionally break the game be completely invalidated by a lack of people to break the game with.

Just say "no," OP. If you say "yes" to that game, you've already lost, and the cheesemonger has already won simply in virtue of his having an occasion to "crash the game," so to speak, to "exploit the bugs." Just say "no." The look of sorrow, of disappointment, of utter defeat when the cheesemonger realizes that he has nobody to play with...

...that is the sweetest and most decisive victory of all.

This is a meaner and pettier attitude than someone who is too competitive. Dear OP, try talking to the player to find a common ground for you both to enjoy. Most people are reasonable if you just treat them like people. If you explain you are new and not up to playing against the most competitive lists, with any luck he will understand and tone down his list. If however, he is dead set on an effortless win, then it is indeed best to find another player for a more mutually enjoyable experience. Cheers.

chalkobob wrote:This is a meaner and pettier attitude than someone who is too competitive. Dear OP, try talking to the player to find a common ground for you both to enjoy. Most people are reasonable if you just treat them like people. If you explain you are new and not up to playing against the most competitive lists, with any luck he will understand and tone down his list. If however, he is dead set on an effortless win, then it is indeed best to find another player for a more mutually enjoyable experience. Cheers.

Bull pucky. We're talking about a dude who regularly and effortlessly beats people, who apparently has a "0" in the loss column in this group of people.

If he were reasonable, he would have already recognized that something is askew.

I say to "help" him figure it out by letting him wallow in social isolation...at least for all 40k contexts and purposes.

It's really, really easy to paddle newbies with Tau.

 Traditio wrote:

Bull pucky. We're talking about a dude who regularly and effortlessly beats people, who apparently has a "0" in the loss column in this group of people.

Being overtly competitive in a game of toy soldiers is not enough information to fully know or understand this human being. It's incredibly reductive (and ignorant) to assume otherwise. I've known TFG that we're still good fathers and friends and generally good people. In general, attempting to communicate is worth doing.

I say to "help" him figure it out by letting him wallow in social isolation...at least for all 40k contexts and purposes.

A rather petty overreaction that one single person is incapable of accomplishing even in pick up games (you need to get most of the players at a store or potentially all the FLGS's in a region on the same page), especially if the FLGS organizer arranges games at a store event.

chalkobob wrote:Being overtly competitive in a game of toy soldiers is not enough information to fully know or understand this human being. It's incredibly reductive (and ignorant) to assume otherwise. I've known TFG that we're still good fathers and friends and generally good people. In general, attempting to communicate is worth doing.

1. It's not enough to fully know or understand the individual. It's enough to make a reasonable decision about whether or not he is worth playing with, or else, whether he should be shunned from 40k games.

2. LoL at attempting to communicate.

Passive aggression is the only way.

A rather petty overreaction that one single person is incapable of accomplishing even in pick up games (you need to get most of the players at a store or potentially all the FLGS's in a region on the same page), especially if the FLGS organizer arranges games at a store event.

The OP can lead by example.

Why should the OP lead by example? People like you won't give them a chance...