Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Thairne wrote:
So ya'll claim DA to be most likely to fall?
You know, the ones that hate traitor marines the most of all the chapters? That have the DIRE NEED to purge those that betrayed them, that put that stain on their honour?
They might be prone to going rogue, but not heretical.
That would be a decision to make.
Also half the chapter went traitor, yes.
Did anyone remember what the White Scars were up to? Didn't have the Legion want to join Horus when the Khan was away for 5 minutes?

On the other hand you have Blood Angels which by flaw of the gene seed tend to go berserk, loose themselves and become mindless killing machines that need to be put down and crave blood?
This is in their very nature.

Wolves have a problem with authority, not loyality. They also are prone to going rogue, but not traitorous.

The ones who, on multiple occasions, open fire on Imperial allies with no warning to protect their secret? That abandon their duty to chase their own agenda?
Yeah, those guys. This is a case where their "atonement" is actually more damning than the original crime IMO.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


And yet Sanguinius, with his obvious mutation, is the only primarch to be named a saint by the Ecclesiarchy.

And Horus was made warmaster. The fact that Sanguinius is a saint goes against everything the Emperor wished in the first place.

Doesn't matter, he's all for it now.

I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

BrianDavion wrote:
I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

The High Lords are the voice of the Emperor now. If they say it, its the word of god.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

The High Lords are the voice of the Emperor now. If they say it, its the word of god.

And the Sororitas' Acts of Faith, along with Living Saints, are a good indication that he is actively participating AS a god now.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

The High Lords are the voice of the Emperor now. If they say it, its the word of god.

And the Sororitas' Acts of Faith, along with Living Saints, are a good indication that he is actively participating AS a god now.

As with modern day, what someone sees as a divine intervention or miracle, others see as trickery, or simply explained science, or witchy dirty witch magic in 40k as the case may be. The SOB might demonstrate direct power, but those AoF aren't making laws or directing the wider Imperium. As far as anyone is concerned, the High Lords are the Emperor, for all intents and purposes. They are god as He is god, so obey.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

The High Lords are the voice of the Emperor now. If they say it, its the word of god.

And the Sororitas' Acts of Faith, along with Living Saints, are a good indication that he is actively participating AS a god now.

As with modern day, what someone sees as a divine intervention or miracle, others see as trickery, or simply explained science, or witchy dirty witch magic in 40k as the case may be. The SOB might demonstrate direct power, but those AoF aren't making laws or directing the wider Imperium. As far as anyone is concerned, the High Lords are the Emperor, for all intents and purposes. They are god as He is god, so obey.

Granted, but the point I was making is that if the Sororitas' AoF actually are divine intervention by the Emperor then it would suggest that he not only tolerates, but also accepts worship. That's a 180 from his stance during the time of the Great Crusade.

thing is, as early as the Horus Heresy we saw acts of faith having genuine power. so the answer is clearly a liiiitle more complicated

BrianDavion wrote:
thing is, as early as the Horus Heresy we saw acts of faith having genuine power. so the answer is clearly a liiiitle more complicated

Everything is more complicated with 40k

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Blood Angels.
Space Wolves and Dark Angels will kill each other over some sleight or other.

That DA/SW feud is generally being blown out of proportions. Even the duel they have every time they are together is more of ritual duel. It's not like the two are mortal enemies.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

The High Lords are the voice of the Emperor now. If they say it, its the word of god.

And the Sororitas' Acts of Faith, along with Living Saints, are a good indication that he is actively participating AS a god now.

As with modern day, what someone sees as a divine intervention or miracle, others see as trickery, or simply explained science, or witchy dirty witch magic in 40k as the case may be. The SOB might demonstrate direct power, but those AoF aren't making laws or directing the wider Imperium. As far as anyone is concerned, the High Lords are the Emperor, for all intents and purposes. They are god as He is god, so obey.

Granted, but the point I was making is that if the Sororitas' AoF actually are divine intervention by the Emperor then it would suggest that he not only tolerates, but also accepts worship. That's a 180 from his stance during the time of the Great Crusade.

A good point but again, not definitive. It might not even be the Emperor granting them powers at all, could be Daemons, could be the warp reacting to their faith in a psyker-like manner. Could be Chaos Gods setting up a grand fall for the SoB to destroy their faith forever. It might also be done to the "The Emperor Protects" his loyal subjects. Space Marines in the fluff don't really need that divine protection, except the BT who are basically just charge in and kill and would likely get cut to shreds without having that direction from TEC and give them purpose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Blood Angels.
Space Wolves and Dark Angels will kill each other over some sleight or other.

That DA/SW feud is generally being blown out of proportions. Even the duel they have every time they are together is more of ritual duel. It's not like the two are mortal enemies.

This right here. The SW and DA have a duel. A duel, with honour, its organised ritual. Its not like they kill each other while Abaddon scratches his head in wonder.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I was unaware the Emperor was able to articulate his opinions. for all we know he's basicly sitting entombed on his throne screaming ".... WTF GUYS!?" into the warp for all eternity

The High Lords are the voice of the Emperor now. If they say it, its the word of god.

And the Sororitas' Acts of Faith, along with Living Saints, are a good indication that he is actively participating AS a god now.

As with modern day, what someone sees as a divine intervention or miracle, others see as trickery, or simply explained science, or witchy dirty witch magic in 40k as the case may be. The SOB might demonstrate direct power, but those AoF aren't making laws or directing the wider Imperium. As far as anyone is concerned, the High Lords are the Emperor, for all intents and purposes. They are god as He is god, so obey.

Granted, but the point I was making is that if the Sororitas' AoF actually are divine intervention by the Emperor then it would suggest that he not only tolerates, but also accepts worship. That's a 180 from his stance during the time of the Great Crusade.

A good point but again, not definitive. It might not even be the Emperor granting them powers at all, could be Daemons, could be the warp reacting to their faith in a psyker-like manner. Could be Chaos Gods setting up a grand fall for the SoB to destroy their faith forever. It might also be done to the "The Emperor Protects" his loyal subjects. Space Marines in the fluff don't really need that divine protection, except the BT who are basically just charge in and kill and would likely get cut to shreds without having that direction from TEC and give them purpose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Blood Angels.
Space Wolves and Dark Angels will kill each other over some sleight or other.

That DA/SW feud is generally being blown out of proportions. Even the duel they have every time they are together is more of ritual duel. It's not like the two are mortal enemies.

This right here. The SW and DA have a duel. A duel, with honour, its organised ritual. Its not like they kill each other while Abaddon scratches his head in wonder.

Last I heard the Dark Angels had a fleet poised over Fenris and were about to blow some chunks out of it. That ain't gonna go down well with the pups.

Not like there's Daemons everywhere or anything.

I voted White Scars because, I reckon, they're the most likely to undertake some scandalous raid and pull away fast as lightning into the warp, or thereabouts, for profit, and without sacrificing their identity as a Space Marine chapter.

As for the Space Wolves turning to Chaos: No - they may do their own thing, but their own acts are performed out of a strong sense of loyalty to the Emperor, if not to all branches of the Imperium. Their identity as a legion would suffer from turning to Chaos. Proud, fierce, rebellious - all good ways for Chaos to get in, but the Space Wolves are loyal above all.

Dark Angels: No - while as authoritarians and warriors they recognise the pragmatic benefits of turning to Chaos, with the Horus Heresy behind them, this is the chapter most capable of repressing the heck out of any Chaos-influenced predilections. Also, from a storytelling point of view, too obvious.

Blood Angels: Tricky - the question here is whether turning to Chaos is an act of willpower. Clearly, the Blood Angels and their successors cannot overcome the Khorne-friendly black rage, only regulate it by culling those who've succumbed to it in the most practical way an army could - via suicide missions. Unless a daemon of Khorne ever took the form of the Sanguinor, I don't see them consciously turning to Chaos.

Iron Hands: This I deem plausible, due to their ruthlessness, self/flesh-hatred, and for how different they seem from Ferrus Mannus.

Ultramarines: This I want to happen, but doubt its feasibility. Even if Alpharius turns up at Ultramarine HQ, reeking of 'just as planned', I feel it would be in service of the Emperor, not of Chaos, because the Ultramarines would just bury him in bodies and bolter shells.

Fun topic!

See, I think DA are probably most likely to fall on their own, what with all that Cypher nonsense.
Of course there's always the chance that chapters could be declared Heretics, entirely against their will. That's happened to chapters in the past, when Gene Seed mutations have gotten out of hand...

 Funbug No.1 wrote:
I voted White Scars because, I reckon, they're the most likely to undertake some scandalous raid and pull away fast as lightning into the warp, or thereabouts, for profit, and without sacrificing their identity as a Space Marine chapter.

As for the Space Wolves turning to Chaos: No - they may do their own thing, but their own acts are performed out of a strong sense of loyalty to the Emperor, if not to all branches of the Imperium. Their identity as a legion would suffer from turning to Chaos. Proud, fierce, rebellious - all good ways for Chaos to get in, but the Space Wolves are loyal above all.

Dark Angels: No - while as authoritarians and warriors they recognise the pragmatic benefits of turning to Chaos, with the Horus Heresy behind them, this is the chapter most capable of repressing the heck out of any Chaos-influenced predilections. Also, from a storytelling point of view, too obvious.

Blood Angels: Tricky - the question here is whether turning to Chaos is an act of willpower. Clearly, the Blood Angels and their successors cannot overcome the Khorne-friendly black rage, only regulate it by culling those who've succumbed to it in the most practical way an army could - via suicide missions. Unless a daemon of Khorne ever took the form of the Sanguinor, I don't see them consciously turning to Chaos.

Iron Hands: This I deem plausible, due to their ruthlessness, self/flesh-hatred, and for how different they seem from Ferrus Mannus.

Ultramarines: This I want to happen, but doubt its feasibility. Even if Alpharius turns up at Ultramarine HQ, reeking of 'just as planned', I feel it would be in service of the Emperor, not of Chaos, because the Ultramarines would just bury him in bodies and bolter shells.

Fun topic!

The UM/AL could do a rip off of Captain America: The Winter Soldier and it'd be pretty entertaining.

Dark Angels. After all, they already did.

@ Aben Zin. You're right. If a loyalist chapter were to fall to Chaos, the smart money's on the Dark Angels. Though if they were to fall, I think it would be a shame, because they are an interesting chapter to the extent that they have this mysterious, painful relationship with Chaos yet remain loyal, something like a counterpoint to the Alpha Legion and the ambiguities behind their allegiances/motivations. Regarding Cypher, I like to think of him as an agent of the Dark Angels, whose function is to keep the more powerful members of the chapter on their toes by maintaining The Fallen as an idea to be opposed, as a sort of rigour or discipline that the chapter must observe at all times so that they don't slip under Chaos' influence. But this is just a personal interpretation, although the model itself is remarkably un-Chaos'd, not that that necessarily means anything.

@Deadshot. I've been watching almost all of the MCU stuff, and The Winter Soldier is probably my favourite of the films; there are certainly parallels between the Alpha Legion and HYDRA that GW might want to exploit. I'd rather they didn't though. I would, however, like to see the Alpha Legion get some kind of solid characterisation, rather than the two or three different identities they have floating around.

 Thairne wrote:
So ya'll claim DA to be most likely to fall?
You know, the ones that hate traitor marines the most of all the chapters? That have the DIRE NEED to purge those that betrayed them, that put that stain on their honour?
They might be prone to going rogue, but not heretical.
That would be a decision to make.
Also half the chapter went traitor, yes.

Or they are trying to silence the fallen as they know the truth about what the current DA are

so many secrets.

Well the ultramarines did try to create a new imperium...

I said White Scars, actually. Perhaps not in the 41st millennium, but the Khan said during the Heresy that it was basically circumstance that led to him not siding with Horus. Something about being stuck fighting alongside brothers he barely knew against a brother he loved for a cause he didn't believe in or something like that.

 Desubot wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So ya'll claim DA to be most likely to fall?
You know, the ones that hate traitor marines the most of all the chapters? That have the DIRE NEED to purge those that betrayed them, that put that stain on their honour?
They might be prone to going rogue, but not heretical.
That would be a decision to make.
Also half the chapter went traitor, yes.

Or they are trying to silence the fallen as they know the truth about what the current DA are

so many secrets.

Indeed. Thats why some argue they've all fallen and are trying to cover it up now that the coup failed...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So ya'll claim DA to be most likely to fall?
You know, the ones that hate traitor marines the most of all the chapters? That have the DIRE NEED to purge those that betrayed them, that put that stain on their honour?
They might be prone to going rogue, but not heretical.
That would be a decision to make.
Also half the chapter went traitor, yes.

Or they are trying to silence the fallen as they know the truth about what the current DA are

so many secrets.

Indeed. Thats why some argue they've all fallen and are trying to cover it up now that the coup failed...

Doesn't really make sense anymore though.

Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

I might have to say Dark Angels, although my gut instinct is Blood Angels. Will have to see how Fenris plays out.

PourSpelur wrote:
Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

That sounds a lot more like the Space Wolves to me.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

PourSpelur wrote:
Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

That sounds a lot more like the Space Wolves to me.

Only one has been described as what all Astartes aspire to be.

As someone mentioned above, anyone who has read any background fluff (novels, codex) on the Dark Angels will know they are fanatical in their hatred and intolerance of heresy and chaos, and although they do have a secret agenda which includes cleansing their past by hunting down and forcing their traitor battle-brothers to repent, the Chapter itself is fiercely loyal to the Imperium. I recommend reading Angels of Darkness, where the line between serving the secret agenda and serving the citizens of the Imperium is explored.

Now, the one circumstance where I could actually see the Dark Angels turning renegade or even traitor would be if Lion El Johnson woke up from his sleep on The Rock and resumed control of the Chapter, as his loyalty and allegiances/motivations are seriously cast in doubt. Even if the Lion did turn renegade, I think the Chapter would be split in half again, with half staying loyal.

I honestly think the Iron Hands or Blood Angels more likely to turn renegade, though not necessarily traitor.

pm713 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

PourSpelur wrote:
Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

That sounds a lot more like the Space Wolves to me.

Only one has been described as what all Astartes aspire to be.

except that statement is meaningless for two reasons (three if you include "is Wardian Hyperbole and thus to be eye rolled at and promptly ignored)

1st of all, the statement is a generic statement, it does not nesscarily mean that the Ultramarines see themselves that way. 2: there's no real Hubris here. The Ultramarines proably do belive that as the Chapter of Gulliman they have a responsability to be the examplar of the Codex Astartes, but that's not blind hubris so much as it's "I'm the oldest son, I need to set an example for my little brothers" that kinda mentality is more likely to keep you on the straight and narrow. and that's the thing the Ultramarines cleave hard to the rules, so they're not likely to (unless there is a fundamental flaw with the codex Astartes, which there is zero evidance to date of) fall to Chaos.

I agree that the statement sounds MUCH more like the Space Wolves, a chapter so convinced of their own rightousness that they thumb their nose at the rules whenever they please. but hey let's not let facts get in the way of the 5th edition inspired sour grapes Ultramarine hate fest eh?

None of them are likely to fall, to be honest. They all have some small flaws (or large ones) but they've spent 10K years on dealing with them and working around Imperial Bureaucrazy if needed. Successors, with less experience, are more likely to fall.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

PourSpelur wrote:
Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

That sounds a lot more like the Space Wolves to me.

Only one has been described as what all Astartes aspire to be.

except that statement is meaningless for two reasons (three if you include "is Wardian Hyperbole and thus to be eye rolled at and promptly ignored)

1st of all, the statement is a generic statement, it does not nesscarily mean that the Ultramarines see themselves that way. 2: there's no real Hubris here. The Ultramarines proably do belive that as the Chapter of Gulliman they have a responsability to be the examplar of the Codex Astartes, but that's not blind hubris so much as it's "I'm the oldest son, I need to set an example for my little brothers" that kinda mentality is more likely to keep you on the straight and narrow. and that's the thing the Ultramarines cleave hard to the rules, so they're not likely to (unless there is a fundamental flaw with the codex Astartes, which there is zero evidance to date of) fall to Chaos.

I agree that the statement sounds MUCH more like the Space Wolves, a chapter so convinced of their own rightousness that they thumb their nose at the rules whenever they please. but hey let's not let facts get in the way of the 5th edition inspired sour grapes Ultramarine hate fest eh?

Let's not stop wild exaggeration of what Space Wolves do either.